Secondary New Wu Wei Thread

[Marblehead]

Okay. Here we go:

 

Chapter 37, Lines 1 - 2

 

Pinyin

 

dao chang wu wei,

er wu bu wei.

 

Henricks

 

The Dao is constantly nameless.

　

J Wu

 

Tao never makes any ado,

And yet it does everything.

　

Wang

 

Tao remains as true Wu,

It will manifest.

　

　

This should be an interesting one.

[et-thoughts]

Why do it oneself when other will be glad to do it for one?

[ChiDragon]

dao chang wu wei,

er wu bu wei.

 

道常無為，

而無不為。

 

Tao is always Wu Wei,

Then, there is nothing that cannot be done.

[et-thoughts]

there is nothing that cannot be done.

 

it be done... nothing that cannot be done, isn't done

everything that is to be done is done...

Everything that can be done has been done...

Now its time once and for all to choose what will remain

yes everything is possible ...

its just that some possibilities remain as possibilities forevermore...

some realities be done forevermore

some possibilities never become nothing but possibilities

what cannot be done may or may not be done...

what can be done, may or may not be done... and may or may not be desirable to keep

the sage knows when to act by doing and when to act by not doing what to keep and what to let go

[ChiDragon]

Tao is always Wu Wei,

Then, there is nothing that cannot be done(or accomplished).

 

Wu Wei is the key here.

Edited August 19, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yes, and here we are talking about "Tao is always Wu Wei." This is not saying that the average person or even the Sage is always Wu Wei.

 

I wonder if it is even possible for any human to be "always Wu Wei". This would require a total denial of self, would it not?

[rene]

... I wonder if it is even possible for any human to be "always Wu Wei". This would require a total denial of self, would it not?

 

Only if you still live in 'either/or' land. (-:

[Marblehead]

Only if you still live in 'either/or' land. (-:

Well, we all know that I am a materialist so I guess we know where I'm living.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

道常無為，

而無不為

literally:

Dao always not leading (among other possible actions)

Nevertheless, nothing not done ("left undone")

Edited August 20, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Marblehead]

道常無為，

而無不為

literally:

Dao always not leading (among other possible actions)

Nevertheless, nothing not done ("left undone")

Yeah, I like that but I would like to see it in a more comfortable English.

 

Well, there is a verb disagreement between the first and second lines so perhaps the word "leading" is not the best word.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

道常無為，

而無不為

 

It is the way of Dao to not lead/interfere/do/make/govern/manipulate/ ["do, handle, govern, act; be"]

Nevertheless, nothing is left undone

Edited August 20, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[rene]

Well, we all know that I am a materialist so I guess we know where I'm living.

 

Are you only a materialist?

Is there no wu in your yo ?

[Marblehead]

Are you only a materialist?

Is there no wu in your yo ?

Thanks for checking. (Not really. Hehehe.)

 

Of course there is Wu in my Yo. How else could I hold to the concepts of Manifest and Mystery?

 

But I am careful to test what I am feeling and thinking to make sure what I am experiencing is not a bunch of illusions and delusions.

 

However, when it really doesn't matter, I enjoy living totally spontaneously. This too is Wu. And the older I get the fewer things matter.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, and here we are talking about "Tao is always Wu Wei." This is not saying that the average person or even the Sage is always Wu Wei.

 

I wonder if it is even possible for any human to be "always Wu Wei". This would require a total denial of self, would it not?

 

Yes, Tao is absolute but not us humans.

The best one can do is try to be Wu Wei whenever possible.

[Marblehead]

Interesting chapter, this one, for me, as I see "ren wei" here as well and I would like to get input regarding this from our Chinese reading members.

 

Chapter 38, Lines 5 - 7

 

Pinyin

 

shang de wu wei er wu yi wei.

xia de wu wei er you yi wei.

shang ren wei zhi er wu yi wei.

 

 

 

Henricks

 

The highest virtue takes no action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

The highest humanity takes action, yet it has no reason for acting this way;

The highest righteousness takes action, and it has its reason for acting this way;

The highest propriety takes action, and when no one responds to it,

then it angrily rolls up its sleeves and forces people to comply.

 

　

J Wu

　

High humanity fusses but has no private ends to serve:

High morality not only fusses but has private ends to serve.

High ceremony fusses but finds no response;

Then it tries to enforce itself with rolled-up sleeves.

 

　

Wang

 

When a man of utmost benevolence acts, he acts according to Wu.

When a man of utmost righteousness acts, he acts according to Yo.

When a man of utmost propriety acts and gets no response,

he throws his arms and shows.

　

　

Please correct any errors I have made regarding line inclusion.

[ChiDragon]

shang de wu wei er wu yi wei.

xia de wu wei er you yi wei.

shang ren wei zhi er wu yi wei.

 

5. 上德 [無為] 而無以為。

6. 下德 [無為] 而有以為。

7. 上仁為之而無以為。

 

Translation:

5. High virtue with "Wu Wei" but not intentional.

6. Low virtue with "Wu Wei" but intentional.

7. The ultimate act of benevolence initially was not intentional but natural.

Edited August 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

So you translate "ren wei" as benevolent action? or natural action?

[ChiDragon]

So you translate "ren wei" as benevolent action? or natural action?

 

"ren wei" as benevolent action to be exact.

[dawei]

Yeah, I'm not completely sold on the statement that Mysterious Female is Dao 100%.

I think it comes from Qigong and Taiji influences on some level. 'Xuan Pin' is essentially Tai Ji; the root of movement... aka, to some, Dao.

 

I personally replace an understanding of Xuan as 'mystery' with 'original', as in primordial.

[dawei]

According to Chapter 1, Tao itself has two states of manifestation which are Wu and You. The state of Wu is when Tao was invisible and the state of You when Tao is visible.

I am so glad to see someone else say that. Very few actually understand this, I think.

I think there is too much being made of Tao here... too much like a thing.

 

Tao is nothing but a concept of how things work; whether in the transformational phase of non-being or becoming.

 

It is not itself visible or invisible at any time. The outcome of each transformational phases abide by some operative 'way' and it the outcomes which are visible or invisible; not the mechanism of the outcomes (Tao).

 

JMO.

[dawei]

Yes, and here we are talking about "Tao is always Wu Wei." This is not saying that the average person or even the Sage is always Wu Wei.

 

I wonder if it is even possible for any human to be "always Wu Wei". This would require a total denial of self, would it not?

You'll need to wait for chapter 57... you may change your mind then...

[dawei]

Well, there is a verb disagreement between the first and second lines so perhaps the word "leading" is not the best word.

I might go with 'ten-thousand-thing-self-guiding-principle'... but that is a mouth full of what ZiRan is simply saying

[ChiDragon]

Please go argue your translations about something else in the Tao Te Ching section. This thread it about the concept of Wu Wei in the different chapters. Thank you very much for your cooperation...!!!

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

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I think there is too much being made of Tao here... too much like a thing.

 

Tao is nothing but a concept of how things work; whether in the transformational phase of non-being or becoming.

 

It is not itself visible or invisible at any time. The outcome of each transformational phases abide by some operative 'way' and it the outcomes which are visible or invisible; not the mechanism of the outcomes (Tao).

 

JMO.

If I ever gave the impression that I think Tao is a 'thing' I apologize. I do not 'reify' Tao.

 

However, the Manifest is 'reified' already and there ain't nothing I can do about it.

 

I have previously stated that I hold to the concept of Tzujan. Tao follows Tazjan. Tao is the collection of the things and non-things of the universe, not a thing in and of itself.

 

And yes, transformation, change, is one of the controlling aspects of Tzujan (the Laws of Nature, the nature of all things individually).

[Marblehead]

You'll need to wait for chapter 57... you may change your mind then...

I have been known to change my mind. I have no problem with doing that. Byt I don't do it just because someone tells me I have to do it. I gotta' be showed why.