Secondary New Wu Wei Thread

[Marblehead]

I might go with 'ten-thousand-thing-self-guiding-principle'... but that is a mouth full of what ZiRan is simply saying

Yes, it is easier to say Tzujan (Zi Ran) but then we have to explain what we mean by the word. And that's not always easy.

[Marblehead]

Please go argue your translations about something else in the Tao Te Ching section. This thread it about the concept of Wu Wei in the different chapters. Thank you very much for your cooperation...!!!

Hehehe. I love you two guys! Reminds me of me and one of my wives.

 

Edit

 

But yes, we are wu wei-ing here. Let's try to keep the discussions as close as we can to that concept.

 

Edited August 21, 2012 by Marblehead

[dawei]

Please go argue your translations about something else in the Tao Te Ching section. This thread it about the concept of Wu Wei in the different chapters. Thank you very much for your cooperation...!!!

Nobody is arguing translates but those posting translations... look back over the pages and who is pushing translations???

 

We are talking concepts... and some overlap. I know MH agrees with ZiRan... I tied to that as well...

 

MH is the OP... he can steer the posting.

[dawei]

Hehehe. I love you two guys! Reminds me of me and one of my wives.

 

Edit

 

But yes, we are wu wei-ing here. Let's try to keep the discussions as close as we can to that concept.

I think people are "trying" to wu wei is not wu wei... is that part of the discussion?

[dawei]

If I ever gave the impression that I think Tao is a 'thing' I apologize. I do not 'reify' Tao.

 

However, the Manifest is 'reified' already and there ain't nothing I can do about it.

 

I have previously stated that I hold to the concept of Tzujan. Tao follows Tazjan. Tao is the collection of the things and non-things of the universe, not a thing in and of itself.

 

And yes, transformation, change, is one of the controlling aspects of Tzujan (the Laws of Nature, the nature of all things individually).

not sure why your apologizing... I didn't direct it to you as necessarily pushing Tao is a 'thing'... you are the OP and staying very close to the conversation and guiding it... so I hope you don't apologize for apologizing

[dawei]

I have been known to change my mind. I have no problem with doing that. Byt I don't do it just because someone tells me I have to do it. I gotta' be showed why.

Whatever your reasons for change are your reasons... that seems reasonable. BTW: Nice topic.

[ChiDragon]

Nobody is arguing translates but those posting translations... look back over the pages and who is pushing translations???

 

We are talking concepts... and some overlap. I know MH agrees with ZiRan... I tied to that as well...

 

MH is the OP... he can steer the posting.

 

Sorry, my mistake. This thread is about the applications of Wu Wei in the related chapters. It is rather late to go into the definition of Wu Wei at this stage. Any statement make here will be the revelation of the level of understanding per each individual. Please don't just throw out some terms but give sufficient reasoning to substantiate your point.

 

Wu Wei was basically understood to be ZiRen and there is no doubt about that. This was the basic knowledge that we had been discussed many times before and it is nothing new. In order to show how one understood Wu Wei is to move on without anymore unnecessary distraction to this thread. Using Wu Wei as the reason for one was not being Wu Wei still did not prove any point at all. Therefore, shall we stay within the relevancy in the subject of interest....???

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I think people are "trying" to wu wei is not wu wei... is that part of the discussion?

Not yet but I have a feeling it will feed into that.

 

We have already gone off topic a couple times so once more won't make that much difference.

[Marblehead]

not sure why your apologizing... I didn't direct it to you as necessarily pushing Tao is a 'thing'... you are the OP and staying very close to the conversation and guiding it... so I hope you don't apologize for apologizing

Just letting other reader here know that I do not reify (personify) Tao. Yes, I do sometimes use "Tao" as a noun but not for the purpose of defining anything.

[Marblehead]

Whatever your reasons for change are your reasons... that seems reasonable. BTW: Nice topic.

Yep. My changes are my changes. Everyone else has to do their own.

 

Actually, the thread has evolved into more than I thought it would. And I am taking it further than I anticipated taking it. It's all good.

[Marblehead]

Therefore, shall we stay within the relevancy in the subject of interest....???

Yep. Maybe the next chapter shortly.

[Marblehead]

Chapter 43, Lines 4 - 7

 

Pinyin

 

wu shi yi zhi wu wei zhi you yi.

bu yan zhi jiao,

wu wei zhi yi,

tian xia xi ji zhi.

 

 

Henricks

 

I therefore know that there is benefit in taking no action.

The wordless teaching, the benefit of taking no action—

Few in the world can realize these!

 

 

J Wu

 

Hence I know the advantages of Non-Ado.

Few things under heaven are as instructive as

the lessons of Silence,

Or as beneficial as the fruits of Non-Ado.

 

 

Wang

 

We thus know

the benefit of acting with Wu.

Teaching without words and

benefit of Wu-actions

can seldom be matched by anything else

under heaven.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 43

1. 天 下 之 至 柔 ，

2. 馳 騁 天 下 之 至 堅 。

3. 無 有 入 無 間 ，

 

4. 吾 是 以 知 無 為 之 有 益 。

5. 不 言 之 教 ，

6. 無 為 之 益

7. 天 下 希 及 之 。

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Because of that, I know the benefit of Wu Wei

5. Teaching without words

6. The benefit of Wu Wei.

7. There is no comparison with it in the world.

 

Lines 4 through 7 were saying that LaoTze knows the benefit of Wu Wei by assuming the reader knew what Wu Wei was. Indeed, he had given a clue at the beginning, lines 1 through 3, of the chapter.

 

1. The extreme softness in the world.

2. Manipulates the extreme hardness of the world.

3. Formless enters non-space.

 

He was referring that the water is the extreme softness in the world. What he was suggesting is to use benevolent ruling(softness) to rule the people rather than tyrannical(hardness).

 

The interpretation of this chapter does required some thinking and inductive reasoning with some knowledge from the previous chapters.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Stosh]

According to Wang

 

it appears that ziran is an iverse behavior pattern to wu wei and therefore the subject of Tzujan or Zi ran is still helping to define wu wei.

 

 

( If I get it right Zi ran is 'You being you' and wu wei is restraint so another can be 'them being them')

 

 

Oops , took too long getting facts straight, nevermind.

 

Stosh

Edited August 21, 2012 by Stosh

[ChiDragon]

Zi Ren simply means "natural"

 

Wu Wei was meant to "let nature take its course" which it was being ZiRen(natural).

 

Wu Wei is a philosophical idea and ZiRen was being a descriptive noun to tell what Wu Wei is. Another words, anyone was being Wu Wei which implies that someone was being having a natural way of doing things. Literally, ZiRen is a synonym of Wu Wei.

 

 

Wang's translation:

We thus know

the benefit of acting with Wu.

 

He translated Wu Wei as "the acting with Wu" which indicates that he did not know what Wu Wei is. The problem with using someone's translation in the past without any update, IMO, is not very unreliable for a foreign reader without a full understand of the language and cultural background.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[et-thoughts]

Chapter 43

1. 天 下 之 至 柔 ，

2. 馳 騁 天 下 之 至 堅 。

3. 無 有 入 無 間 ，

 

4. 吾 是 以 知 無 為 之 有 益 。

5. 不 言 之 教 ，

6. 無 為 之 益

7. 天 下 希 及 之 。

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. Because of that, I know the benefit of Wu Wei

5. Teaching without words

6. The benefit of Wu Wei.

7. There is no comparison with it in the world.

 

Lines 4 through 7 were saying that LaoTze knows the benefit of Wu Wei by assuming the reader knew what Wu Wei was. Indeed, he had given a clue at the beginning, lines 1 through 3, of the chapter.

 

1. The extreme softness in the world.

2. Manipulates the extreme hardness of the world.

3. Formless enters non-space.

 

He was referring that the water is the extreme softness in the world. What he was suggesting is to use benevolent ruling(softness) to rule the people rather than tyrannical(hardness).

 

The interpretation of this chapter does required some thinking and inductive reasoning with some knowledge from the previous chapters.

 

Teaching without words involves demonstrating through one's example rather than just talking about it...

Also note the focus on softness manipulating the hardness ... that is dancing along and moving and directing energy flows rather than fighting...

[ChiDragon]

5. Teaching without words

 

In a higher level of interpretation for the Classic Text which means:

An advice was given for rulers to issue fewer decrees to minimize the burden for the people.

 

Note:

People just read this line superficially really has no meaning applied to it at all. In the same token, people who are translating the superficial meaning of the characters 無為(wu wei) as "non doing" without knowing the actual philosophy behind the term was a real pity too IMO.

Edited August 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

 

Wang's translation:

We thus know

the benefit of acting with Wu.

He translated Wu Wei as "the acting with Wu" which indicates that he did not know what Wu Wei is. The problem with using someone's translation in the past without any update, IMO, is not very unreliable for a foreign reader without a full understand of the language and cultural background.

Yep, you don't like Wang's translation. Hehehe. That's okay, I guess.

 

[ChiDragon]

Yep, you don't like Wang's translation. Hehehe. That's okay, I guess.

 

How can I accept this translation from one of my fella countryman. Obviously, he had a great English influence in his translation.

"The act of Wu"

 

What he was saying, in the effect, is the "act of none". And what the hell is the "act of none" meant....???

[et-thoughts]

How can I accept this translation from one of my fella countryman. Obviously, he had a great English influence in his translation.

"The act of Wu"

 

What he was saying, in the effect, is the "act of none". And what the hell is the "act of none" meant....???

 

' the act of none' may mean...'the act' according to 'the act'!

 

following is the explanation that lead to the above claim...

 

Today I had an interchange that centered on 'what be' which may or may not correspond to what I think to be, what you think to be, what they think to be... in a way what be be what be regardless of what someone may think... in other words :

what be according to what be ...

Note that "what be" according to what be... be independent of someone... and this in essence would be according to none ...

[rene]

How can I accept this translation from one of my fella countryman. Obviously, he had a great English influence in his translation.

"The act of Wu" What he was saying, in the effect, is the "act of none". And what the hell is the "act of none" meant....???

 

"What he was saying, in the effect, is the "act of none"."

 

No, CD, that's not what he is saying at all. He is using "Wu" in a totally different manner. He is using "wu" as one of the states of Tao, which you yourself agreed to as occuring in DDJ Ch1.

 

The same word/character can have different meanings. For example, like you said, in a different thread,

 

"The physical emptiness is different from the mental emptiness of Buddhism.

The emptiness in the cup is not the same emptiness as in the heart of a Buddhist."

 

Just as "emptiness" has different meanings, Wang's idea regarding Wu also takes a meaning different than "none".

 

***

 

From this thread: http://thetaobums.co...-states-of-tao/

 

Can we really describe the Wu state? Laotzu did it in many of his Chapters. The Wu state is an unconscious state of man with respect to his interactions with heaven, so our conscious language may not be able to link to the unconsciousness effectively. Wu is the ultimate return or concealment of Tao. Wu is not a state of nothingness, but is a state of completeness and harmony. In Tao philosophy, the Wu state is never completely hidden, since there is always a You state encoded inside it.

 

Wu is a positive state of Tao. This positive nature of Wu must be properly preserved in our interpretation of Tao. For example, Laotzu often used Wu-wei 無為, Wu-Yue 無欲, and Wu-zhi 無知 as the main attributes of the Wu state. These concepts are of great importance in Tao philosophy. Unfortunately, these terms have been commonly interpreted as without action, without desire, and without wisdom. Such negative interpretations have contributed to gross misunderstandings of Wu, and, more importantly, of Tao.

 

***

 

You might disagree with his idea, and that's fine, but it would be rather disingenuous on your part to try and shoehorn his ideas into your framework to find them lacking.

 

warm regards

[ChiDragon]

rene...

I thought you might surface for this. You see there are many ways of using the meaning of Wu.

 

In Taoism and Buddhism due the difference in thinking the meanings of Wu are completely out of phase. However, the way that LaoTze use it is very clever. It the reader was not careful, then it will be misled oneself from one meaning to another. The way LoaTze uses "wu" was in many clever ways. He has it different from character to character, line to line, chapter to chapter. One cannot assume its meaning was uniform based on a similar case in the use of "wu".

 

I think after this thread, we should have a separate thread to look into what each Wu means in different context.

 

 

Wu-wei 無為 is one term and stand alone, the other two cannot be treated the same way as Wu Wei.

 

This is totally incorrect to group them as in a same fashion as in Wu Wei.

Wu-Yue 無欲 means no desire.

and

Wu-zhi 無知 means ignorance.

 

Sorry, I cannot accept Wang's and Wu's presentation.

 

 

PS...

As you can see, in Chapter one, the characters were used independently for the states of Tao as 'Wu' and 'You' are stand alone.

Edited August 22, 2012 by ChiDragon

[rene]

rene...

I thought you might surface for this. You see there are many ways of using the meaning of Wu.

 

In Taoism and Buddhism due the difference in thinking the meanings of Wu are completely out of phase. However, the way that LaoTze use it is very clever. It the reader was not careful, then it will be misled oneself from one meaning to another. The way LoaTze uses "wu" was in many clever ways. He has it different from character to character, line to line, chapter to chapter. One cannot assume its meaning was uniform based on a similar case in the use of "wu".

...

PS...

As you can see, in Chapter one, the characters were used independently for the states of Tao as 'Wu' and 'You' are stand alone.

 

CD, I agree with those parts of your post I quoted above. IMO, Laozi's use of Wu and You in Chapter One were a hint, a clue, as to what was to follow in the remaining chapters, or as you put it, "The way LoaTze uses "wu" was in many clever ways".

 

Rather than start yet another thread, if you want to explore "what each Wu means in different context", feel free to use the States of Tao thread...as that would be the natural next step for the idea. (-:

 

warm regards

[dawei]

From this thread: http://thetaobums.co...-states-of-tao/

 

Can we really describe the Wu state? Laotzu did it in many of his Chapters. The Wu state is an unconscious state of man with respect to his interactions with heaven, so our conscious language may not be able to link to the unconsciousness effectively. Wu is the ultimate return or concealment of Tao. Wu is not a state of nothingness, but is a state of completeness and harmony. In Tao philosophy, the Wu state is never completely hidden, since there is always a You state encoded inside it.

 

Wu is a positive state of Tao. This positive nature of Wu must be properly preserved in our interpretation of Tao. For example, Laotzu often used Wu-wei 無為, Wu-Yue 無欲, and Wu-zhi 無知 as the main attributes of the Wu state. These concepts are of great importance in Tao philosophy. Unfortunately, these terms have been commonly interpreted as without action, without desire, and without wisdom. Such negative interpretations have contributed to gross misunderstandings of Wu, and, more importantly, of Tao.

Thanks for that; I missed the other thread but now can catch up on that. I generally like what Wang says and agree with what he is saying here. WuWei is action so when he turns it around as "Acting with Wu", I find it a refreshing and direct point. I do think the opening lines are key to the section where we start.

 

IMO, It is essentially saying that the soft-hard are transformations. They are not so much overcoming one another as they are a phase change of each other. This interplay is seen in the second line with Wu-You (Wu-Manifest) becomes Wu-Jian (Wu-Spaceless) ; this is why Wu-state can transform to You-state.

 

And I don't like Yi (益) as benefit. I think knowing the value is closer without having to say it is valuable. But in context of the line Wu Wei Zhi Yi (無為之益) I think it is better understood simply as 'use', based on the contract required by the previous line (wordless teaching).

[Marblehead]

I felt very sure that Rene would join us on this one. Thanks Rene.

 

I am limited to only 'my understandings of the translations'.

 

Y'all have done very well here. And no, we don't always have to agree, but we should discuss our disagreements. We never know how many others the discussions may help in further understanding of the TTC and Taoist Philosophy.

 

Thanks to you all!