Secondary New Wu Wei Thread

[Stosh]

Zi Ren simply means "natural"

 

Wu Wei was meant to "let nature take its course" which it was being ZiRen(natural).

 

Wu Wei is a philosophical idea and ZiRen was being a descriptive noun to tell what Wu Wei is. Another words, anyone was being Wu Wei which implies that someone was being having a natural way of doing things. Literally, ZiRen is a synonym of Wu Wei.

 

 

Wang's translation:

We thus know

the benefit of acting with Wu.

 

He translated Wu Wei as "the acting with Wu" which indicates that he did not know what Wu Wei is. The problem with using someone's translation in the past without any update, IMO, is not very unreliable for a foreign reader without a full understand of the language and cultural background.

Wang , in describing the term zi ran , calls it 'itself-so-being'which could be said as a thing or person fulfilling its naturewhich, is the standpoint of all of us first and foremost.Without that idea or a similar one, you are left with the 'doing nothing' credoYou NEED that ziran concept.Nurture or fix it but dont dismiss it.Stosh

[Marblehead]

Nurture or fix it but dont dismiss it.Stosh

I wouldn't even include the word "fix" because the nurturing process is never-ending.

 

[et-thoughts]

One needs to nurture some stuff and dismiss certain stuff...

[Marblehead]

One needs to nurture some stuff and dismiss certain stuff...

Yep.

[ChiDragon]

Wang , in describing the term zi ran , calls it 'itself-so-being'which could be said as a thing or person fulfilling its naturewhich, is the standpoint of all of us first and foremost.Without that idea or a similar one, you are left with the 'doing nothing' credoYou NEED that ziran concept.Nurture or fix it but dont dismiss it.Stosh

 

'itself-so-being'...

Isn't that the same as the natural self was being self natural....???

Be yourself as natural as you can be....????

 

Wang was only using ZiRen as an application for the idea of natural in his thought; but the authentic definition of ZiRen is natural.

Edited August 22, 2012 by ChiDragon

[et-thoughts]

'itself-so-being'...

Isn't that the same as the natural self was being self natural....???

Be yourself as natural as you can be....????

 

Wang was only using ZiRen as an application for the idea of natural in his thought; but the authentic definition of ZiRen is natural.

 

A slight variation involving ...

 

Stosh, on 22 August 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

 

Without that idea or a similar one, you are left with the 'doing nothing' credoYou NEED that ...("X")... concept.

 

With the 'Ideal' being, the it becomes a composite of singular individual and arrangements realities to move with in and through in a dance that both molds arranges and transforms everything...

[Stosh]

Wang was only using ZiRen as an application for the idea of natural in his thought; but the authentic definition of ZiRen is natural.

Well he rendered the term he was looking at into itself- so- being and described it as the process of a thing fulfilling that which it would be virtue of its characteristics.

Im under the impression that the dual idea of nature vs man-stuff has its own phraseology.it is not unsimilar to natural ,

, but what the heck would be unnatural (that a thing could be?)

if you are not using a man-done vs other-done dichotomy?

Zi ren , CAN render a similar relationship of benevolence and non-interference between two things as does a pattern of wu wei.

I think he is just seeing it that -a thing has its own virtue first

Ex

a cat has the virtue of a cat ,and lives its cats life ,and does cat things ,including killing mice

A medicine has a medicine virtue, it cures what the medicine cures,

and one can say that "this is a virtuous medicine"

because it cures the illness

and a person has a virtue of a person, living a persons life ,and doing a persons things.

And a person respecting the Ziran of other things,

is respecting the same situation of himself if the positions were reversed, so one avoids messing with other Ziran.

On the other hand if one has virtue by acting wu wei , it is relative to other things first

The cat is not virtuous unless it avoids eating mice ,

the medicine is virtuous by not interfering with an illness

and a person has to defy himself in order to make way for everyone else.

More simply put, that virtue arises from either

the nature of the thing living its dao,,

and... not interfering or being harmless ,is secondary to that.

 

....Or... that virtue arises from being harmless and not interfering first

and a thing has no virtue in being true to its "nature".

 

If one combines the inherent virtue of a thing being true to itself and behaves with proper restraint..

You get a leader who does his job but doesnt micromanage

You get a medicine that cures the illness but doesnt make one grow extra arms

you get a cat that kills mice but leaves your children alone

 

In most of what I read it is Ziran that is being glossed over , and assumed to be recognized as being virtuous, all the glory being bestowed on restraint.. which makes no sense in the real world because you cant live a 'virtuous' life of doing nothing!

Stosh

Edited August 22, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

A slight variation involving ...

 

Stosh, on 22 August 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

 

Without that idea or a similar one, you are left with the 'doing nothing' credoYou NEED that ...("X")... concept.

 

With the 'Ideal' being, the it becomes a composite of singular individual and arrangements realities to move with in and through in a dance that both molds arranges and transforms everything...

Yes I do believe I agree wholeheartedly with that Et.Stosh

[et-thoughts]

Well he rendered the term he was looking at into itself- so- being and described it as the process of a thing fulfilling that which it would be virtue of its characteristics.

Im under the impression that the dual idea of nature vs man-stuff has its own phraseology.it is not unsimilar to natural ,

, but what the heck would be unnatural (that a thing could be?)

if you are not using a man-done vs other-done dichotomy?

Zi ren , CAN render a similar relationship of benevolence and non-interference between two things as does a pattern of wu wei.

I think he is just seeing it that -a thing has its own virtue first

Ex

a cat has the virtue of a cat ,and lives its cats life ,and does cat things ,including killing mice

A medicine has a medicine virtue, it cures what the medicine cures,

and one can say that "this is a virtuous medicine"

because it cures the illness

and a person has a virtue of a person, living a persons life ,and doing a persons things.

And a person respecting the Ziran of other things,

is respecting the same situation of himself if the positions were reversed, so one avoids messing with other Ziran.

On the other hand if one has virtue by acting wu wei , it is relative to other things first

The cat is not virtuous unless it avoids eating mice ,

the medicine is virtuous by not interfering with an illness

and a person has to defy himself in order to make way for everyone else.

More simply put, that virtue arises from either

the nature of the thing living its dao,,

and... not interfering or being harmless ,is secondary to that.

 

....Or... that virtue arises from being harmless and not interfering first

and a thing has no virtue in being true to its "nature".

 

If one combines the inherent virtue of a thing being true to itself and behaves with proper restraint..

You get a leader who does his job but doesnt micromanage

You get a medicine that cures the illness but doesnt make one grow extra arms

you get a cat that kills mice but leaves your children alone

 

In most of what I read it is Ziran that is being glossed over , and assumed to be recognized as being virtuous, all the glory being bestowed on restraint.. which makes no sense in the real world because you cant live a 'virtuous' life of doing nothing!

Stosh

 

Stosh,

 

a virtue arises from nurturing some stuff and dismiss certain stuff.. the act and energy has potential to do this or that what it ultimately does depends on ... the interactions, arrangements and inter-reactions involved

 

will continue latter ... lucky the dog is doing its take me out NOW PLEASE dance... ok I am back...

 

"if the positions were reversed..." well lets take a look... the sage, the teacher, the master... the lovers... have realized long ago that they teach and learn at the same time so the student is both the student and the teacher... 'singularities' like love, caring, work... and when the position be reversed they still work... be that one gives or receives love... love is cultivated, sustained, desired, spread and 'other' stuff...

 

In the real world one must act ... the question isn't to be or not to be; its how to be! When one chooses to do nothing it may be vicious, virtuous, and a bunch of other stuff... they key resides in nurturing some stuff and dismiss certain stuff... choose which possibilities will remain as possibilities and which will grow into realities... now observe what happens when taken to the absolute ... death dies and life lives!

Edited August 23, 2012 by et-thoughts

[dawei]

"Virtue"... this is a topic of considerable interest... for both daoists... and confucians... I see both getting mixed up here. And they are not the same for each. Confucians and other priests (including Daoist) want one to nurture, cultivate and create an atmosphere for virtue to bloom... IMO, it is intrinsically within.

 

While we may believe that some 'actions' help it grow, arise, or spread... that is just Confucianism for the outward display. There is no inwards display; only an inward disposition or capacity. The cat is always in possession of this (De); and most virtuous when eating mice since that is by its very nature (ZiRan) what it should naturally do (Wu Wei).

 

Man seems to lose their bearing of De by thinking about it instead of acting on the inner essence of it.

[Marblehead]

"Virtue"... this is a topic of considerable interest... for both daoists... and confucians...

And that is a valid thought.

 

It is true, in my understanding, that (Philosophical) Taoists and Confucians speak differently regarding "virtue".

 

I do believe tha Lao Tzu spoke to both the virtues of Tao and the virtues of man. Confucius was concerned with only the virtues of man.

 

From the perspective of the Virtue of Tao, the cat eats the mouse.

 

From the perspective of the virtue of man, man will save the mouse and feed the cat manufactured cat food.

[Stosh]

There was a cardinal nest outside the door ..

I watched a squirrel clamber over to it pull a baby chick out ,climb higher up the tree ,and then he started eating it.

The next morning , the parent cardinals were feeding the remaining chick, I see the squirrel heading back to their nest.

What does virtue suggest to do?

Stosh

[Marblehead]

There was a cardinal nest outside the door ..

I watched a squirrel clamber over to it pull a baby chick out ,climb higher up the tree ,and then he started eating it.

The next morning , the parent cardinals were feeding the remaining chick, I see the squirrel heading back to their nest.

What does virtue suggest to do?

Stosh

Shoot the squirrel?

 

Edit

 

On second thought, return to trying to catch a fish for supper.

 

Edited August 23, 2012 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

Those who were considered to have the virtue of Tao was being Wu Wei. The virtue of Tao is to follow the principle of Tao. The principle of Tao is to be Wu Wei.

[ChiDragon]

Shoot the squirrel?

 

That is not so Wu Wei like.

Are you interfering with the course of Nature......???

[Marblehead]

 

[Marblehead said, "Shoot the squirrel?"]

 

That is not so Wu Wei like.

Are you interfering with the course of Nature......???

 

Okay, let's look at this. Let's say I am in the woods, lost and hungry. Now would be the best time to shoot the squirrel and get something to eat because the squirrel is totally distracted by the thought of what it is about to gain.

 

In this case shooting the squirrel would be consistent with the course of my nature.

[Marblehead]

Chapter 48, Lines 1- 5

 

Pinyin

 

wei xue ri yi,

wei dao ri sun,

sun zhi you sun,

yi zhi yu wu wei.

wu wei er wu bu wei.

 

 

Henricks

 

Those who work at their studies increase day after day;

Those who have heard the Dao decrease day after day.

They decrease and decrease, till they get to the point where they do nothing.

They do nothing and yet there's nothing left undone.

 

 

J Wu

 

Learning consists in daily accumulating;

The practice of Tao consists in daily diminishing.

Keep on diminishing and diminishing,

Until you reach the state of Non-Ado.

No-Ado, and yet nothing is left undone.

 

　

Wang

 

One who seeks learning adds everyday.

One who seeks Tao sheds everyday.

By shedding upon shedding,

one attains the state of Wu-action.

By Wu-action, one acts according to Wu.

[ChiDragon]

Okay, let's look at this. Let's say I am in the woods, lost and hungry. Now would be the best time to shoot the squirrel and get something to eat because the squirrel is totally distracted by the thought of what it is about to gain.

 

In this case shooting the squirrel would be consistent with the course of my nature.

 

It was selfish on your part to kill and eat the squirrel. You are talking about your nature but not Nature.

[thelerner]

There was a cardinal nest outside the door ..

I watched a squirrel clamber over to it pull a baby chick out ,climb higher up the tree ,and then he started eating it.

The next morning , the parent cardinals were feeding the remaining chick, I see the squirrel heading back to their nest.

What does virtue suggest to do?

Stosh

Hmnn, help the bird through action (temporary result unless you kill the squirrel), no action (help the squirrel). Seems like Wu Wei would favor the second, but I think the action done naturally without thinking, without motive, without regret is the one that is most proper. So the specific action is secondary to the pureness of mind when its done. Because hopefully and ultimately that state of mind takes in factors the conscious mind can't.

[Marblehead]

It was selfish on your part to kill and eat the squirrel. You are talking about your nature but not Nature.

No shit! I can live only my nature.

[ChiDragon]

No shit! I can live only my nature.

 

The squirrel is living its own nature by eating the chick bird because it doesn't know the TTC; and that is Nature.

[Marblehead]

The squirrel is living its own nature by eating the chick bird because it doesn't know the TTC; and that is Nature.

And I am living my own nature by eating the squirrel because I was hungry and because I know the TTC I know that I am supposed to take care of my life and live it to its fullest potential. To allow myself to starve to death would be counter-Tao.

[ChiDragon]

wei xue ri yi,

wei dao ri sun,

sun zhi you sun,

yi zhi yu wu wei.

wu wei er wu bu wei.

 

1. 為學日益。

2. 為道日損。

3. 損之又損，

4. 以至於無為。

5. 無為而無不為。

 

1. In learning, knowledge increases daily.

2. In seeking the Principles of Tao, one's desires are lessen daily.

3. Lessen and even lessen.

4. Until attained the realm of Wu Wei.

5. Being Wu Wei then there is nothing that cannot be done.

Edited August 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yea!!! I get to eat my squirrel in peace and quiet.

 

Chapter 48.

 

Yes, I think one must lessen one's desires to an absolute minimum in order to attain the state of Wu and be wu wei.

[ChiDragon]

I don't know how did the state of Wu was introduced into Taoism. The State of Wu Wei is more appropriate in Taoism. Indeed, the only State of Wu is the appearance of Tao when Tao was invisible at the beginning of the universe.

 

The State of Wu, in Buddhism, is an ultimate realm that a monk would like to attain.