et-thoughts Posted August 23, 2012 The State of Wu, in Buddhism, is an ultimate realm that a monk would like to attain. Then the real creative experiences begin to take place everywhere effortlessly ... Attaining the state is only the beginning... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 24, 2012 No shit! I can live only my nature. Yea!!! I get to eat my squirrel in peace and quiet. Chapter 48. Yes, I think one must lessen one's desires to an absolute minimum in order to attain the state of Wu and be wu wei. You were definitely on the path of the great 'duh' with shooting and eating the squirrel... follow your natural instinct. But if one is purposely trying to lessen something to an absolute minimum in order to attain something... they are in the intentional process of refinement; this is not the De of Dao but of Man's efforts. You may get your mind/body/spirit to another state but then again... that state was simply waiting for you to realize what was there... JMO Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 24, 2012 ... if one is purposely trying to lessen something to an absolute minimum in order to attain something... they are in the intentional process of refinement; this is not the De of Dao but of Man's efforts. dawei, agree Marblehead, why would you need desires to be at an absolute minimum? Oh wait...for you it's either wu or yo - so, yes, I can see where you'd think yo needed to be minimized as much as possible. Have fun with that!. Oh wait.. Never mind. (-: warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 24, 2012 dawei, agree Marblehead, why would you need desires to be at an absolute minimum? Oh wait...for you it's either wu or yo - so, yes, I can see where you'd think yo needed to be minimized as much as possible. Have fun with that!. Oh wait.. Never mind. (-: warm regards Evidently because the particular desires involved to be at an absolute maximum can't be sustained...! Of course there are particular desires that can be sustained at an absolute maximum... these involve this AND that BOTH... and singularities that can exists as singularities... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 24, 2012 wei xue ri yi 為學日益 wei dao ri sun 為道日損 Ever heard the chinese sayings: - Confucian by day and Daoist by night - Confucian publicly and Daoist privately Don't get stuck on "learning", "Seeking", "Practicing", etc as most translates will have us be literally sucked into... it is imagery. If one thinks about the earth; during the day, what is accumulated; and during the second half of the day what is depreciated so what is the net result? In fact, it is a trick question... It is playing on a modern game of thinking there must be gain vs loss... In Dao, there is Both/And; Either/Or... They are not 'net' but complementary and interdependent transformations of each other. sun zhi you sun 損之又損 yi zhi yu wu wei 以至於無為 wu wei er wu bu wei 無為而無不為 As the day wears on... Earth is simply following it's natural ebb and flow (wu wei) This ebb and flow; Is this ebb and yet not also flow? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 24, 2012 Evidently because the particular desires involved to be at an absolute maximum can't be sustained...! Of course there are particular desires that can be sustained at an absolute maximum... these involve this AND that BOTH... and singularities that can exists as singularities... Who is the judge of this? If self... then I accept your comments... if the source... then the idea is empty. So it depends on the point of view. If you are viewing from self... there is always more to gain; to achieve; to lessen; to lose; to reach... good luck with that live-long-pursuit. If viewing from the source.... you are home... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) dawei... Do you know how to read Chinese at all....??? If not, then please....... Edited August 24, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 24, 2012 Yes.... I am not seeking to do pendantic word by word translations based on the logic of my own inventions.... I understand the text based on something beyond the senses... I don't expect the pedantic-types to understand it. May I ask why you have intentionally sought me out two times to stop my participation in this thread??? You may want to introspectively review your intentions... else I may ask a mod to do so. Just participate in the thread and leave any stalking out of it. thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 24, 2012 君子學以聚之 - The superior man learns and accumulates the results of his learning; 日就月將 - But by daily progress and monthly advance, Lao Zi does not use this ancient Confucian formula or wording... but seems to want to negate it's stress... Thus, Lao Zi wants to say something different than the normal Confucian translations we see about accumulation, increase, lessening, etc... To understand Lao ZI, look to nature for an example... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 24, 2012 The whole dilemma with Wu Wei begins when one tries to study it for understanding... and dissects it and breaks it down into concepts and theories... and tries to define "when", "how", "who", etc... but misses the basic point... Wuzhen pian, “Jueju,” poem 42: -- Fabrizio Pregadio It begins with doing, and hardly can one see a thing, when it comes to non-doing, all begin to understand. But if you only see non-doing as the essential marvel, how can you know that doing is the foundation? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 24, 2012 (edited) .................. translations based on the logic of my own inventions.... I understand the text based on something beyond the senses... Pardon me! I didn't know that was your own inventions. No wonder it was understood beyond the senses. Sorry, it was really fascinating and beyond my comprehension. Go ahead, I will leave you alone.... Edited August 24, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 You were definitely on the path of the great 'duh' with shooting and eating the squirrel... follow your natural instinct. But if one is purposely trying to lessen something to an absolute minimum in order to attain something... they are in the intentional process of refinement; this is not the De of Dao but of Man's efforts. You may get your mind/body/spirit to another state but then again... that state was simply waiting for you to realize what was there... JMO Hi Dawei, Thanks for your opinion. Hehehe. I live mostly in the state of Yo. I was not one with the squirrel but the squirrel is now one with me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 Marblehead, why would you need desires to be at an absolute minimum? Oh wait...for you it's either wu or yo - so, yes, I can see where you'd think yo needed to be minimized as much as possible. Have fun with that!. Oh wait.. Never mind. (-: warm regards Well, Gee!, you go right ahead on and answer your own questions. Oh!, believe me, I am having great fun with that! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 Evidently because the particular desires involved to be at an absolute maximum can't be sustained...! Of course there are particular desires that can be sustained at an absolute maximum... these involve this AND that BOTH... and singularities that can exists as singularities... Desires are not 'wu wei'. This I can testify onto! Contentment leads to wu wei. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 The whole dilemma with Wu Wei begins when one tries to study it for understanding... and dissects it and breaks it down into concepts and theories... and tries to define "when", "how", "who", etc... but misses the basic point... Wuzhen pian, “Jueju,” poem 42: -- Fabrizio Pregadio It begins with doing, and hardly can one see a thing, when it comes to non-doing, all begin to understand. But if you only see non-doing as the essential marvel, how can you know that doing is the foundation? Good point. Intelligently understanding the concept of 'wu wei' is not enough, I think. It is something that must first be experienced before one can honestly say that they 'understand' it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 So anyhow, Once upon a time (this is a true story) before I had my fish ponds totally covered and enclosed I went out one morning and saw a Blue Heron killing and eating some of my Goldfish. My first emotion felt was hatred - then the thought of killing the bird (they are a protected species in Florida). Then I thought, wait!, the bird is doing only what its nature drives it to do. I then chased the bird off (it was a big boy!) and determined that I would spend maximum effort to totally cover and enclose the ponds area so that I would never experience those emotions again and the bird would have to look elsewhere for its food in its natural habitat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 24, 2012 Who is the judge of this? If self... then I accept your comments... if the source... then the idea is empty. So it depends on the point of view. If you are viewing from self... there is always more to gain; to achieve; to lessen; to lose; to reach... good luck with that live-long-pursuit. If viewing from the source.... you are home... When we are home we my still have to do a bunch of stuff to maintain and improve the household... involving a live-long-pursuit... that may involve caring for this and 'discarding' that... One needs to nurture some stuff and dismiss certain stuff... Some consider the source as the empty void ... some consider the source as the source "Who is the judge of this? (snipped) if the source... then the idea is empty..." ONLY if the source has no judgements... As I said some consider that the source ('xyz').. and depending on the point of view used certain thoughts follow... With the 'Ideal' being, at the source, the it becomes a composite of singular individual and arrangements realities to move with in and through in a dance that molds arranges and transforms everything... seeking that idea or a similar one, be manifested... You NEED that ...("X")... concept... in order to know what to strive for... some seek the empty void and some seek it all ( realizing that having it all involves some possibilities remaining forevermore as possibilities). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 24, 2012 So anyhow, Once upon a time (this is a true story) before I had my fish ponds totally covered and enclosed I went out one morning and saw a Blue Heron killing and eating some of my Goldfish. My first emotion felt was hatred - then the thought of killing the bird (they are a protected species in Florida). Then I thought, wait!, the bird is doing only what its nature drives it to do. I then chased the bird off (it was a big boy!) and determined that I would spend maximum effort to totally cover and enclose the ponds area so that I would never experience those emotions again and the bird would have to look elsewhere for its food in its natural habitat. Marblehead, The lesson is to protect cover and enclose what one loves from opportunistic 'protected' predators that fly in kill, feed and fly away with our goldfish... by chasing them away and dedicating maximum effort to make it easier for the birds to look elsewhere for its food... BTW I envision that the emotions felt, the thoughts experienced and actions taken could had been quite different ...some would never experience those things as you did... though they might have taken the protective actions you did Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 24, 2012 If one thinks about the earth; during the day, what is accumulated; and during the second half of the day what is depreciated so what is the net result? In fact, it is a trick question... It is playing on a modern game of thinking there must be gain vs loss... In Dao, there is Both/And; Either/Or... They are not 'net' but complementary and interdependent transformations of each other. sun zhi you sun 損之又損 yi zhi yu wu wei 以至於無為 wu wei er wu bu wei 無為而無不為 As the day wears on... Earth is simply following it's natural ebb and flow (wu wei) This ebb and flow; Is this ebb and yet not also flow? dawei, hi, nice (-: and - it might be the imbalanced 'net' is what provides the impetus, the momentum, of the cycle. Your posts are most enjoyable; a treat to see the occasional moon amongst all these fingers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 24, 2012 dawei, hi, nice (-: and - it might be the imbalanced 'net' is what provides the impetus, the momentum, of the cycle. Your posts are most enjoyable; a treat to see the occasional moon amongst all these fingers. Is there an imbalance? Different stages of the day provide different impetus of the cycle... the momentum sometimes 'pushes' flows sometimes 'resists' flows... as dawei points out, dawei's question is a bit tricky... it plays a game of associating accumulation during the day, depreciation during the second half of the day and seeking a net result. Furthermore it cultivates the notion that these are complementary and interdependent transformations of each other. playing on 'a modern' game of thinking dualistically ... peculiar how sometimes the day denotes the day and sometimes it denotes only half of it ... strange how we associate certain things to certain parts of the day... when we look at every moment stuff be happening... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 BTW I envision that the emotions felt, the thoughts experienced and actions taken could had been quite different ...some would never experience those things as you did... though they might have taken the protective actions you did Yes, those were my experiences. Others would likely have had different experiences. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 ... amongst all these fingers. Look at my finger Rene! I am trying to show you the hangnail I have that is bothering me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 24, 2012 Yes, those were my experiences. Others would likely have had different experiences. The underlying point I sought to convey was that YOU could had had different experiences! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 24, 2012 The underlying point I sought to convey was that YOU could had had different experiences! Impossible! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 24, 2012 Impossible! If you say so... Look even if it where possible, that you believe it impossible, keeps you from realizing the possibilities... I am certain that you could had had different experiences... that just how the cookie crumbles ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
