Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 That's better. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 That's better. Hehehe. Wrong.....!!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 Wrong.....!!!! RIGHT.....!!!! now that we have both wrong and right, which one is better what be wrong or what be right? (BTW for clarity sake I said RIGHT.....!!!! not validating what be wrong but asserting the rightness of what be right) it seems time to get back to wu wei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) see that you did not get what I intended to share... How about life gives each the rewards of what be cultivated which is Wu Wei. The word "rewards" does not exist in the Concept of Wu Wei. Please try to understand Chapter 5. PS... Please don't forget that Marblehead is a two-headed snake..... Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 The word "rewards" does not exist in the Concept of Wu Wei. Please try to understand Chapter 5. PS... Please don't forget that Marblehead is a two-headed snake..... so I see you refuse to get to understand the core of the matter and present objection after objection because of the word used... and you point me to chapter 5... that according to the translation I saw does include the concept of 'produce', another way of stating 'rewards'. Incidentally chapter 5 also includes the concept at the core of the matter under focus... They treat everything with equal detachment... in other words giving the same thing to all... this thing to some its a blessing, to some its a curse... it be good regardless of what some thing it be... Maybe you think it better to keep my thought inside of me... least the thoughts help some to expose the truth and understanding within them... How about each gets the products of what be cultivated and each chooses what to do with them which in a way is Wu Wei. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 I see you are just pulling the words out of the text and put them out of context to be in your favor as intended. Anyway, intention is not quite Wu Wei. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 I see you are just pulling the words out of the text and put them out of context to be in your favor as intended. Anyway, intention is not quite Wu Wei. Just going with the flow of the material... I am pulling the words of the text to make a point clear... My favor, your favor, either one is playing favoritism... what context shall we use ? your, mine someone else's ? na just doing what it takes to make a point clear... From a web page I saw recently... "The concept of wu wei illustrates the importance of flowing with natural energy, and using that energy as a source of power....Someone who believes in and follows wu wei knows how to seize a moment to best advantage, and when to remain still and allow life to flow by"*. The sage knows when to act and acts and knows when not to act and does not act... If there was no intention why would the sage tread good and bad equally? The intent underlying everything be love... thats the source energy! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Just going with the flow of the material... I am pulling the words of the text to make a point clear... My favor, your favor, either one is playing favoritism... what context shall we use ? your, mine someone else's ? na just doing what it takes to make a point clear... The words have special meaning within context in each chapter of the Tao Te Ching. The context is not my, yours nor someone else. If you choose to use any word to make your point, then there is no need to pull it our from the context in the TTC. Why even bother to go there in the first place....??? You may pick any word from thin air...!!! PS..... Using quote from others which indicates to me that one doesn't have enough confidence to use one's own definition. Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 The words have special meaning within context in each chapter of the Tao Te Ching. The context is not my, yours nor someone else. If you choose to use any word to make your point, then there is no need to pull it our from the context in the TTC. Why even bother to go there in the first place....??? You may pick any word from thin air...!!! Yes words do have special meanings associated to them... if we are to understand what they say the meaning we associate to the words must coincide with the special meaning associated to them... most of the time there are differences in associations ... there was no need to go to the TTC ... yet you asked me to consider it... that is why I bother to go there in the first place....??? I pointed out what I saw and how it applied and coincided with what I was stating ... Have you done something like that? I do not think so... but maybe you can point me to where you have done it. This interchange has stemmed from what you hold and what I hold... though rarely has there been a validation if what was perceived corresponded to what was indented. Between us its rather straightforward... we can just ask if what I understood corresponds to what was intended... with a text its a bit more difficult because we do not have the live validation clarification of the other with us... though sometimes its quite evident... for example I think I know you intended to state 'out' not 'our' from the text... I could ask you to validate this fact and corroborate that what I think to know corresponds to what be going on... this is a rather insignificant example... a more relevant one could be what it mean by 'acting with no-action'... or 'the flavor of no-flavor' to me its evident that the illusion of no-judgement and no-choice stem from holding 'what is not' as 'what is' rather than holding 'what is' as 'what is'... Everyone is bound to judge while free to choose how to do it... everyone must choose what to do even if they choose to do nothing... stand by observing what happens... some even claim they made no-choice... when evidently the chosen to just stand by... How do you know your interpretation of ttc corresponds to the author's? How do you know that the author's interpretation corresponds to what be? My stand is rather simple and hedges the outcome so that it always the chose to make... regardless of it being real or a dream always choose the better ways... only one way to go (and there is no way to go wrong )... When one seeks to always learn what be right one always rejoices at finding the truth... I am getting to involved here... will shortly take a leave and do as chapter 5 suggested keep within many a thought... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Hang in there guys. We have only one more chapter to do. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 Just wanted to add that those who have had certain experiences need not some text of the experiences to dialogue about the experiences... though the text can come handy now and then and serve as a way to talk about the experiences... one way or another way there is only one mountain summit... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Chapter 64, Lines 15 - 17 Pinyin shi yi, sheng ren wu wei, gu wu bai; wu zhi, gu wu shi. Henricks Therefore the Sage does not act, And as a result, he doesn't ruin [things]; John Wu The Sage fusses over nothing and therefore spoils nothing. Wayne Wang Therefore, the Sage Acts with Wu, so he never fails. Yeah, nice. But let's look at lines 5 & 6 just out of my curiosity: (In order as above) wei zhi yu wei you, zhi zhi yu wei luan. Act on it before it comes into being; Order it before it turns into chaos. Tackle things before they have appeared. Act on it before it is manifested. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 Chapter 64, Lines 15 - 17 Pinyin shi yi, sheng ren wu wei, gu wu bai; wu zhi, gu wu shi. Henricks Therefore the Sage does not act, And as a result, he doesn't ruin [things]; John Wu The Sage fusses over nothing and therefore spoils nothing. Wayne Wang Therefore, the Sage Acts with Wu, so he never fails. Yeah, nice. But let's look at lines 5 & 6 just out of my curiosity: (In order as above) wei zhi yu wei you, zhi zhi yu wei luan. Act on it before it comes into being; Order it before it turns into chaos. Tackle things before they have appeared. Act on it before it is manifested. its so easier to change the plans of a house before it is constructed than to change the constructed house... Likewise its easier to prevent a problem than to fix the problem... Its easier to change what one is about to say before one states it than to change what one has said... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Hehehe. That almost sounds like you are saying you can't change the past. What caught my eye was that in lines 5 & 6 he talked about 'yo wei' and in lines 15-17 he talked about 'wu wei'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 29, 2012 Hehehe. That almost sounds like you are saying you can't change the past. What caught my eye was that in lines 5 & 6 he talked about 'yo wei' and in lines 15-17 he talked about 'wu wei'. you mean 'yu wei' not 'yo wei' and the lines the other way around ... right? Oh almost there, still isn't there ... one can always change the house ... its just easier to do realignments in the wu rather than the yu ... of course assuming that the construction goes as planned... though it may be easier to experience the yu than the wu ... I am sure you can look back at an experience you had knowing what you know today and change the experience you had back then... get over it... and move on... rather than still be hung up with it... in fact what you know today changes the experiences you had experienced... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) shi yi sheng ren wu wei, gu wu bai; wu zhi, gu wu shi. 是以聖人無為 故無敗， 無執故無失。 Because of a sage is Wu Wei, Therefore he has no failure, No obstinacy thus no loss. Edited August 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2012 I am getting to involved here... Not at all really; it is the resistance to understanding your point which is causing the point to run on. I don't disagree with what you've said and have found out myself (as you might) that some ideas/concepts/explanations are not going to be accepted if it appears to be something beyond the physical, natural senses. But you should know others do understand and agree with what your saying. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 29, 2012 Yeppers and my guess is more than not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 29, 2012 Not at all really; it is the resistance to understanding your point which is causing the point to run on. I don't disagree with what you've said and have found out myself (as you might) that some ideas/concepts/explanations are not going to be accepted if it appears to be something beyond the physical, natural senses. But you should know others do understand and agree with what your saying. Thanks for your kind words and encouraging stand... I once read that there is quite a bit more good in the world though the bad gets more of the reporting ... it is time to change that... the tender caring action done every day by millions if not billions of individuals is just mind boggling... it ought to be talked about a bit more... you are right some ideas/concepts/explanations are going to be rejected rather than accepted ... especially by those who seek other stuff... still ultimately there is only one sustainable way... and those who choose another way will phase-out ... Should the tolerant tolerate the intolerance of the intolerant or give the intolerant what is truly intolerant to the intolerant by forcing them (and everyone) to tolerate tolerance? Again note that tolerance gives each what they desire ... to the tolerant it allows tolerance, to the intolerant it forces tolerance (which is really what the intolerant can't tolerate)... it is time for the individuals and the groups to cultivate the better ways ... collaborating, enriching, directing what takes place... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 you mean 'yu wei' not 'yo wei' and the lines the other way around ... right? No Dear!, I meant "Yo Wei". I always use "Yo Wei". I live in "Yo", I'm a materialist, remember? All others are free to choose whatever they wish. What I was referring to was that he said to take Yo-action when necessary - act before it becomes a problem. And then he says that it is better if we can live in "Wu" and take only Wu-actions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 Oh almost there, still isn't there ... Yeah, but you are getting close. Give yourself credit where credit is due. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 Because of a sage is Wu Wei, Therefore he has no failure, No obstinacy thus no loss. Yes, that is the ideal. Regretfully, we do not live in an idealistic world. Sometimes we gotta get up and move. Only those who do nothing make no mistakes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted August 29, 2012 Doing nothing sounds like a big mistake to me Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 29, 2012 Doing nothing sounds like a big mistake to me Stosh Yep. One might say that it is a wasted life. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2012 Thanks for your kind words and encouraging stand... I once read that there is quite a bit more good in the world though the bad gets more of the reporting ... it is time to change that... the tender caring action done every day by millions if not billions of individuals is just mind boggling... it ought to be talked about a bit more... you are right some ideas/concepts/explanations are going to be rejected rather than accepted ... especially by those who seek other stuff... still ultimately there is only one sustainable way... and those who choose another way will phase-out ... Should the tolerant tolerate the intolerance of the intolerant or give the intolerant what is truly intolerant to the intolerant by forcing them (and everyone) to tolerate tolerance? Again note that tolerance gives each what they desire ... to the tolerant it allows tolerance, to the intolerant it forces tolerance (which is really what the intolerant can't tolerate)... it is time for the individuals and the groups to cultivate the better ways ... collaborating, enriching, directing what takes place... I have actually pondered that as well... but in the end, I yield to the a 'way' in which people are... because there will always be tolerants and intolerants. As to a sustainable way, that is defined by each because the definition is individual on some level. If intolerants leads to shorter sustainability then that is the way it goes; it phases out in its time. While I do agree in the principle that that there are better ways, I must accept that some will not care for it. What they display is intolerance and that is what they care about. One thing is certain to me; while I don't want to try and force someone to a certain way, I do think it is OK to call BS when intolerance is obviously being done as a choice. Everyone seems to see it except the intolerants. They can't seem to tolerate the idea that they are being intolerant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
