et-thoughts Posted August 27, 2012 A natural way is a divine way only from a point of view. No...??? Well that depends on the nature of the natural way... Divine ways give each abundance of what they desire... and involve sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways. BTW the sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways gives each what they desire in a singular way... just like good gives each their dew reward ...to the the good, 'doing only good' is a treasure and to the bad, 'doing only good' is a torture... likewise 'may you reap in abundance what you sow' is a blessing and a curse! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 27, 2012 [For clarity, I'm using 'spiritual' in the wu-state, or even pre-arising, sense... - rather than a 'deity-holy divine' sense] Fun stuff to ponder! Nice catch, et. (-: warm regards Glad you liked it... BTW I was using 'divine' in multifaceted way... each leading to different understandings... so I understand what you mean by 'spiritual'... I like the notion you put forth... Tao follows spiritual naturalness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 27, 2012 Well that depends on the nature of the natural way... Divine ways give each abundance of what they desire... and involve sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways. BTW the sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways gives each what they desire in a singular way... just like good gives each their dew reward ...to the the good, 'doing only good' is a treasure and to the bad, 'doing only good' is a torture... likewise 'may you reap in abundance what you sow' is a blessing and a curse! What you are saying which does not fit the definition of natural in Wu Wei. Thus Natural way is not equal to Divine way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 27, 2012 What you are saying which does not fit the definition of natural in Wu Wei. Thus Natural way is not equal to Divine way. The natural way of evil is not equal to Divine way... in fact is stands in opposition! The natural way of 'the wrong way' is to call good bad and bad good. That is why I said Well that depends on the nature of the natural way... The natural way of the right way is rather straight forward: good is good, bad is bad, what is desirable is what is desirable... those who hold what isn't to be and what is as if it isn't create paradoxes... when someone who is right tells me I am right, its a confirmation of them being right and me being right. when someone who is wrong tells me I am right, it could be because: they conceded the point and are recognizing what be right the point is wrong and they are agreeing to it because they agree with what is wrong when someone who is right tells me I am wrong, it informs me of my error. when someone who is wrong tells me I am wrong, it informs me of how I am right Succinctly put call right right and call wrong wrong... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 27, 2012 What you are saying which does not fit the definition of natural in Wu Wei. Do you know what Wu Wei is.....???? If you do, please tell me.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 Do you know what Wu Wei is.....???? If you do, please tell me.... If I had chosen not to respond, would you had realized that I had responded without responding? If I tell you what you ask--- will you hear me or hear your thoughts? From this thread I come to understand that Wu Wei be the mysterious acting according to the ways of tao which may involve doing nothing as well as doing something... do you understand what I mean? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 From this thread I come to understand that Wu Wei be the mysterious acting according to the ways of tao which may involve doing nothing as well as doing something... do you understand what I mean? No, I do not understand what you mean...!!! How can I be doing nothing but doing something....??? The logic just didn't kick over. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 No, I do not understand what you mean...!!! How can I be doing nothing but doing something....??? The logic just didn't kick over. ChiDragon, I asked "If I had chosen not to respond, would you had realized that I had responded without responding"? Sometimes doing nothing is actually what we choose to do... and those paying attention realize what was done... There are two underling notions In what you quoted me... 1- Wu Wei be the mysterious acting according to the ways of tao 2- the ways of tao may involve ... ... doing nothing ... doing something in a previous post I sought to convey the notion that the act of no-act still be an act... that is we be forced to do while free to choose what we do... In what you quoted me I was pointing out that the ways of tao include both doing and not doing... Is it possible to think of nothing? NA one would be thinking of something... that something being nothing... it is much simpler to focus thinking on what one desires to think about... for some its quite hard to imagine beginnings in eternity... or how something came to be and then nothing existed... for a little while ... until that something that came to be eternal be eternal... tao exists time may come and go and tao exists... hope this helps you clarify and understand what I meant... btw I also asked "If I tell you what you ask--- will you hear me or hear your thoughts"? as a way to explore this issue a bit further... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 Okay. I accept that. Can you give me a good example of doing nothing but did something with result from the point of view of the Tao Te Ching. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 That's going to be more of a challenge for me... maybe others more versed in the point of view of The Tao Te Ching will provide the examples ... what I will do is keep in mind what you asked for and when I see the appropriate example will make a point to focus on it. Our journeys here have united as we each explore and learn certain things and share a moment in time and space. I am certain each path has its uniqueness and valuable lessons. I sort of do not make much distinctions as to who said what for I make much distinction as to what be said. The peasant, the kind, the sage, you, me, anyone may each claim the truth and it will be true or something else depending on the claim being true or something else. The same goes for the words used to express the truth... they can be simple and plain as well as refined still the truth be the truth in whatever language and words be used. I been wondering about duality and singularities... and the roles these play out... to me wu wei could denote 'the way' ... in a simplified way there is only one way with two directions ... actually both directions lead to the same place its just that if we get there in one direction we know and realize we be there and if we get there in the other direction we ignore and don't realize where we be... I believe much of this is contained in the tic (and other works) IF one knows how to get to it... "If I tell you what you ask--- will you hear me or hear your thoughts"? - you will hear me through your thoughts if your thoughts correspond to my thoughts This applies to truth and the tao one will hear tao through one's thoughts if ones thoughts correspond to tao's thoughts In a way the sage does the work and the work is done through the sage ... there in lies the way that tao does everything without doing a thing and what the sage does is done by tao in the sage... of course there are other possibilities and as I said some possibilities are meant to remain forever as possibilities... to me its just evident and logical... though I understand how it can seem so complicated and illogical... I hope and trust you understand this all... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 A natural way is a divine way only from a point of view. No...??? Okay guys, I am not going to be able to accept the concept of "divine". "Natural" I can deal with. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Corrections: Wu is none, no, non, have not Wu Wei only implies the meaning of being Natural. Its true meaning is "Let Nature take its course". LaoZi did not say : "I Wu Wei" but he said : Thus sage said: "I Wu Wei" Well, I disagreed with this before and I will disagree with it again. While understanding that you are probably correct I still cannot accept the concept of doing nothing and letting nature take its course. Sometimes we have to help nature and guide it in a direction that has more benefits for more people, especially myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Note that the choice of no-choice still be a choice... Yes. I don't have a problem with that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 ... more pointing at a 'spiritual naturalness'? Even that woiuld be difficult for me to consider. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 the meaning of wu wei be related to not the natural way but the divine way... Maybe using different words would help to discover it.. the meaning of wu wei be related to the tao way... and that flavor of no-flavor that still be a flavor... Hehehe. Get your "divine" out of my face. Let's stay "natural". Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 Well that depends on the nature of the natural way... Divine ways give each abundance of what they desire... and involve sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways. BTW the sustainable-desirable-congruent with life ways gives each what they desire in a singular way... just like good gives each their dew reward ...to the the good, Okay guys, I am not going to be able to accept the concept of "divine". "Natural" I can deal with. Yes, me too. Divine way is just like good gives each their dew reward which is not Wu Wei. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Okay. I accept that. Can you give me a good example of doing nothing but did something with result from the point of view of the Tao Te Ching. We gotta' be careful while using that phrase "doing nothing", don't we? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 We gotta' be careful while using that phrase "doing nothing", don't we? Yes. I really hate that...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) Well, I disagreed with this before and I will disagree with it again. While understanding that you are probably correct I still cannot accept the concept of doing nothing and letting nature take its course. Sometimes we have to help nature and guide it in a direction that has more benefits for more people, especially myself. Yes, you mean like building a dam on the Yangtze River to control the flood and generate the electrical power but killing all the living creatures. Do you think that was very Wu Wei like...??? Edited August 28, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 Yes, you mean like building a dam on the Yangtze River to control the flood and generate the electrical power but killing all the living creatures. Do you that is very Wu Wei like...??? Not a fair example. Try another one. Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 28, 2012 Not a fair example. Try another one. Hehehe. I can't because that is not very Wu Wei like.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 28, 2012 I can't because that is not very Wu Wei like.... Hehehe. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 Okay guys, I am not going to be able to accept the concept of "divine". "Natural" I can deal with. That depends on what you associate to 'divine' ... How about if we used 'wonderful' 'what be the perfect way'? I would rather we stayed clear of association of the physical and the non-physical to dualistic form of death and life... for a day contains both night and day and there be life in both... physical is alive Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 Yes, me too. Divine way is just like good gives each their dew reward which is not Wu Wei. see that you did not get what I intended to share... How about life gives each the rewards of what be cultivated which is Wu Wei. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 28, 2012 Not a fair example. Try another one. Hehehe. beavers construct dams... and dams both provide habitat for the living creatures and takes habitat from the living creatures... besides regulating the flows can be very Wu Wei like... the sage knows how to direct flows of energy and matter to have more benefits... - Sometimes we have to help nature and guide it in a direction that has more benefits for more people, especially myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
