dawei Posted August 29, 2012 Doing nothing sounds like a big mistake to me Stosh I only think it is a bad idea if one says "do nothing" (or whatever variation) without saying what that means... if this is simply an english expression, then that means one thing. If this is Wu Wei, then the general consensus is that the using an english expression as "do nothing" is not what it literally means; the phrase and meaning are hidden from each other but those in the Wu Wei know, know what is meant. I have no problem with someone transiating Wu Wei as 'do nothing' if they have adequately stated it is a hidden meaning of effortless action. To me, there is ultimately action but to be fair, to say "do nothing" has a kind of Lao Zi mystery to it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 29, 2012 I have actually pondered that as well... but in the end, I yield to the a 'way' in which people are... because there will always be tolerants and intolerants. As to a sustainable way, that is defined by each because the definition is individual on some level. If intolerants leads to shorter sustainability then that is the way it goes; it phases out in its time. While I do agree in the principle that that there are better ways, I must accept that some will not care for it. What they display is intolerance and that is what they care about. One thing is certain to me; while I don't want to try and force someone to a certain way, I do think it is OK to call BS when intolerance is obviously being done as a choice. Everyone seems to see it except the intolerants. They can't seem to tolerate the idea that they are being intolerant. People are a product of their inheritance ( nature and nurture), their environment, themselves AND the ideas they harbor... (it could be debated how much of each and what each area includes, maybe even simplified it a bit or expand it). The point I want to make is that the individual and the group ought to figure out better ways to interact, direct and play. The bully gets to gully (and bully) because many bystanders allow it to happen... a non-interference position, least the beast turns on one (or for 'entertainment' purposes - at the expense of others). The key resides in figuring out ways where the individuals and the groups play fair (for all involved results) cultivating the positive ways while inhibiting the realization of the negatives. Recognize what be while working to bring about the dream. You are right it may be there will always be intolerance... that is intolerance of the intolerant by the tolerant... though when and where there is only tolerance there need not be any intolerance at all... Its a bit like the jiujitsu master (or any gentle martial arts technique) who directs energy flows... and converts blows into caresses... The sustainable way is the sustainable way individual definitions either correspond to it or are a sham. I some do not care for 'it', why should we care about what they care? The way is indifferent as to whether someone cares for it being the way on not, it be the way... One either accepts the way and follows it or rejects the way while following it... I would rather everyone choose of their free accord to follow the way rather than be forced to follow the way... whatever they do everyone follows the way... see the concept of wu wei here! BTW its irrelevant if the see their intolerance or not what need be done is for each to followthrough and tolerate tolerance... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 29, 2012 I some do not care for 'it', why should we care about what they care? The way is indifferent as to whether someone cares for it being the way on not, it be the way... One either accepts the way and follows it or rejects the way while following it... I would rather everyone choose of their free accord to follow the way rather than be forced to follow the way... whatever they do everyone follows the way... see the concept of wu wei here! BTW its irrelevant if the see their intolerance or not what need be done is for each to followthrough and tolerate tolerance... I understand your point and see it on one level... but IMO, Lao Zi cared... and cared enough to say what people should do... I think you are actually doing/saying things the same way; there is an internal indifference as to personal benefit but an outward care about the 10,000... But I would agree that ultimately I also will not care if others accept something or not; that is their way. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flowing hands Posted August 29, 2012 Here is my understanding of what Li Erh thought when he used the words Wu wei. Active intention/awareness. When one is aware of the interaction between all life and this is what is happening, then there is no reason to act. When the world is out of balance then wu wei would mean to act with balance to correct the imbalance. Taking 'no action' would not make any sense considering everything else. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2012 (edited) "Wu Wei" and "No Action" are both as confusing as in Chinese and English and all other languages. However, whomever uses the term was assumed that one knows its concept or philosophy behind it. The concept of Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching but not one's own definition. Edited August 29, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 29, 2012 I understand your point and see it on one level... but IMO, Lao Zi cared... and cared enough to say what people should do... I think you are actually doing/saying things the same way; there is an internal indifference as to personal benefit but an outward care about the 10,000... But I would agree that ultimately I also will not care if others accept something or not; that is their way. In a way I am doing/saying things the same way WHILE ALSO doing/saying something a bit different... for one I hold that the issues of non-action, non-intention, non-contention, duality and indifference ought to be reconsidered... as I sort of said the question involves how to act, how to intend, how to resolve, how the way determines the way, the singular way to be... ' I would rather one choose of their free accord to follow the way rather than be forced to follow the way (by the way - by those on the way) ... whatever one does, eventually everyone follows the way. In me there is a disposition and desire for personal benefit, which involves everyone... there is also an internal respect for individual personal freedoms so long as these respect the ways of respect... its a bit like there is also an internal tolerance so long as there be respect of the ways of tolerance ... else individuals are forced to tolerate tolerance .-) In this day and age of global repercussions 'that is their way' or 'that is their business' requires reconsideration... especially when what others do (and do not do) affects us and our surroundings... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 29, 2012 "Wu Wei" and "No Action" are both as confusing as in Chinese and English and all other languages. However, whomever uses the term was assumed that one knows its concept or philosophy behind it. The concept of Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching but not one's own definition. What I am about to state will be clear to those who know the way and may sound a bit confusing to the rest... Those who know the way realize that one's own definition of the way and the way's own definition of the way be one and the same... SO The concept of Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching BE one's own definition... because one's own definition corresponds to The concept of Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching own definition... Of course for those who's own definition differs from The concept of Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching own definition.. well their own definition isn't The concept of Wu Wei in the Tao Te Ching own definition... hope this be clear to you... if not I suggest to seek to understand and clarify it ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 29, 2012 hope this be clear to you... if not I suggest to seek to understand and clarify it ... Wise....... I will see to that your advice has been met. Thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 29, 2012 Wise....... I will see to that your advice has been met. Thanks. Wise....... choice... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 31, 2012 Well, it appears that this thread has lived its alloted life. My thanks to everyone who participated and specially to those who helped with translations. Maybe time to get back to the Chuang Tzu sub-forum. We haven't even finished the inner chapters yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
