Marblehead Posted August 25, 2012 If you say so... Look even if it where possible, that you believe it impossible, keeps you from realizing the possibilities... I am certain that you could had had different experiences... that just how the cookie crumbles ... Hehehe. Okay, you are making me laugh too and you're not even trying. Yes, until an event happens there is an infinate number of events that could happen next. But cause and effect rule. That is a never-ending (until death) cycle: cause - effect - cause - effect, etc. Every action I take is the cause for the next effect and the next action or inaction. This cycle begins when we are born and ends only with death. I am what I am because of countless cycles of cause and effect. And you know that we cannot go back and change anything. "What if" considerations of anything in the past is wasted thought. But, the "what if"s of the future are very important and worthy of consideration. However, if we are full wu wei we don't have to worry about all that stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 25, 2012 Hehehe. Okay, you are making me laugh too and you're not even trying. Yes, until an event happens there is an infinate number of events that could happen next. But cause and effect rule. That is a never-ending (until death) cycle: cause - effect - cause - effect, etc. Every action I take is the cause for the next effect and the next action or inaction. This cycle begins when we are born and ends only with death. I am what I am because of countless cycles of cause and effect. And you know that we cannot go back and change anything. "What if" considerations of anything in the past is wasted thought. But, the "what if"s of the future are very important and worthy of consideration. However, if we are full wu wei we don't have to worry about all that stuff. Marblehead, Oh it get even more interesting when the present event produce an infinite number of possibilities into the present, into the future and into the past... and repercussions within and elsewhere... When you realize that you can go back and change things you will see many more possibilities... and freedoms... I wonder if the cycle ends with death... it may keep on going... and It may had not even begun when we where born... rather when we where conceived... long before any physical interactions took place... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 25, 2012 Pardon me! I didn't know that was your own inventions. No wonder it was understood beyond the senses. Sorry, it was really fascinating and beyond my comprehension. Go ahead, I will leave you alone.... You still don't quite understand English sayings (as you got the meaning wrong) but that is ok... at least it sounds like your willing to attempt some try at Wu Wei... glad to hear that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 25, 2012 Is there an imbalance? Different stages of the day provide different impetus of the cycle... the momentum sometimes 'pushes' flows sometimes 'resists' flows... as dawei points out, dawei's question is a bit tricky... it plays a game of associating accumulation during the day, depreciation during the second half of the day and seeking a net result. Furthermore it cultivates the notion that these are complementary and interdependent transformations of each other. playing on 'a modern' game of thinking dualistically ... peculiar how sometimes the day denotes the day and sometimes it denotes only half of it ... strange how we associate certain things to certain parts of the day... when we look at every moment stuff be happening... I think we three all have the same idea but talking about it in slightly different ways... as I agree with what you are saying but agree with what Rene means too. Your point fills in some of the blank spots. Nicely done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 25, 2012 I think we three all have the same idea but talking about it in slightly different ways... as I agree with what you are saying but agree with what Rene means too. Your point fills in some of the blank spots. Nicely done. Glad you find what I said useful... recently I learned in a different thread something that may be appropriate to put here... The pessimists sees only the darkness of days (half empty cup) the optimists sees only the lightness of of days (half full cup) The realists sees the full day (the full cup with some liquid and some gas) The first two see in limited ways and could be said to be delusional... the last one sees what be for what be... slightly different way... that the realists sees the full day Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2012 When you realize that you can go back and change things you will see many more possibilities... You do know that I am not going to agree with this, don't you? Can't go back. Sorry. You have only one chance to make a good first impression. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2012 Chapter 57, Lines 11 - 14 Pinyin "wo wu wei er min zi hua wo hao jing er min zi zheng, wo wu shi er min zi fu, wo wu yu er min zi pu." Henricks I do nothing, and the people of themselves are transformed; I love tranquility, and the people of themselves are upright; I'm unconcerned with affairs, and the people of themselves become rich. I desire not to desire, and the people of themselves are [genuine and simple, like] uncarved wood. J Wu I do not make any fuss, and the people transform themselves. I love quietude, and the people settle down in their regular grooves. I do not engage myself in anything, and the people grow rich. I have no desires, and the people return to Simplicity. Wang I act with Wu and people self-evolve. I remain tranquil, and people self-rectify. I serve with Wu, and people self-prosper. I remain without intention, and people achieve Pu (simplicity) by themselves. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) You do know that I am not going to agree with this, don't you? Can't go back. Sorry. You have only one chance to make a good first impression. Actually I don't ... who knows maybe you are going to agree with it because at some point you realize something, that changes what you presently hold... of course when it happens you will also have to deal with the issue of embracing or rejecting the changes... I believe from our interactions that you would embrace the realization even though it involves changing what you presently hold... though who knows what will happen until it happens? I used to believe like you believe right now and at some point I realized something that changed what I believed... there have been other situations that at some point change what I knew would happen... enough to realize that the only sure way to know what will happen is to wait and see what happens... and even then there are many possibilities... besides in the eternal singularity where past present future happen simultaneously one can move without moving! wu wei --- doing without doing --- changing the unchanging... BTW evidence exists to shown that it is possible to change the past and alter the present in the present... of course within certain parameters... a single thought can change it all... of course every single thought can change it all ... (oh BTW 'thought', can be 'feeling' 'action' 'statement' 'a being' 'a situation' --- a single 'feeling' can change it all... of course every single 'feeling' can change it all ...) The key resides in always having what be better 'thoughts'... Wanted to add something based on Chapter 57, Lines 11 - 14 Sometimes what be better 'thought' involves unconcerned tranquility - acting with Wu Edited August 25, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2012 Nope. No matter what you say we still cannot go backward in time. Can't even go forward in time right now even though some of those theoretical physicists are suggesting that it might be possible in the future. All we can do is be. You told me that, remember? Regarding wu wei, yes, acting with Wu, our true nature, is always best. But sometimes it might not be best for those others around us so we still need be selective as to how we act. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 25, 2012 The singular instant where past-present-futre act together and become a singular enduring instant that transcends time becoming the ever-present now enables to do quite a bit of stuff in an instant... When being be and transcend time they be able to do quite a bit of stuff in an instant... "Regarding wu wei, yes, acting with Wu, our true nature, is always best"... INDEED "... sometimes it might not be best for those others around us" ... only if there exists a corruption of true nature "... we still need be selective as to how we act". Always Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 26, 2012 Sorry ET, the past, present and future can never be experienced in the same moment. Those physicists who talk about that stuff are smoking way too much of that nasty stuff. Yep, we need to be careful when we are talking about wu wei (natural action) because no way does wu wei mean sitting on one's butt and doing nothing. Regarding this: "... we still need be selective as to how we act". Always Hopefully we have cultivated ourself so that only the "best course of action" is always taken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 26, 2012 Sorry ET, the past, present and future can never be experienced in the same moment. Those physicists who talk about that stuff are smoking way too much of that nasty stuff. Yep, we need to be careful when we are talking about wu wei (natural action) because no way does wu wei mean sitting on one's butt and doing nothing. Regarding this: "... we still need be selective as to how we act". Always Hopefully we have cultivated ourself so that only the "best course of action" is always taken. Marblehead When you move from 'never-land' to what be always... what can never be, may happens to be always... though in that what happens to be always some possibilities remain forever as possibilities... I am pretty sure you know that now be the only instant we have to act (or not act) I am also pretty sure you believe that what each does now changes stuff... It just a matter of expanding that a bit... Indeed - Hopefully we have cultivated ourself so that only the "best course of action" is always taken. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 26, 2012 I am pretty sure you know that now be the only instant we have to act (or not act) I am also pretty sure you believe that what each does now changes stuff... It just a matter of expanding that a bit... NO, don't expand on it. That is when the confusion enters the mind. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 26, 2012 NO, don't expand on it. That is when the confusion enters the mind. Why don't you quit while you are ahead and save some cyber space for the main course of the thread...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 26, 2012 NO, don't expand on it. That is when the confusion enters the mind. ...that depends on what it is that one expands... and cultivates... will it be understanding ... will it be confusion... will it be wu wei... now be the only instant we have to act (or not act) - agree, disagree or whatever that is for each to determine what each does now changes stuff... It just a matter of expanding that a bit... even if one chooses to do nothing now... one determines now what this moment will be forevermore for those focused on the main course of the thread... it should be quite evident how this relates to wu wei... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 Why don't you quit while you are ahead and save some cyber space for the main course of the thread...... Interesting what you said but yes, we should not take this thread off topic, we still have three chapters to discuss. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 Chapter 63, Lines 1 - 3 Pinyin wei wu wei, shi wu shi, wei wu wei. Henricks Act without acting; Serve without concern for affairs; Find flavor in what has no flavor. J Wu Do the Non-Ado. Strive for the effortless. Savor the savorless. Wang Act with Wu-actions, Conduct with Wu-efforts, Taste the tasteless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted August 27, 2012 Chapter 57, Lines 11 - 14 Pinyin "wo wu wei er min zi hua Henricks I do nothing, and the people of themselves are transformed; Earlier you said that you were not sure anyone can always be Wu Wei... I said wait until Chapter 57... and here it is. Lao Zi says: I Wu Wei... I don't think it is a choice for him but his very being. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Earlier you said that you were not sure anyone can always be Wu Wei... I said wait until Chapter 57... and here it is. Lao Zi says: I Wu Wei... I don't think it is a choice for him but his very being. I was wondering if you were going to get back to me on this. Okay, Lao Tzu said, "I do nothing ..." But Lao Tzu did something. He was a civil servant. He was married. His wife died. He had students. He finally totally retired and then died. (Please don't ask me to support this because it is my story and I made it all up.) So, let's pretend that Lao Tzu said, "I do nothing that is unnatural based on my observations of how Tao functions." I like that because one can actually be fully in the state of Wu if we look at Wu as meaning "natural". Wu Wei = Natural Action. No, we are not sitting on our butt doing nothing until something needs be done. We are living our life, visiting our friends, teaching our students, buying food at the market, working a job so we can buy the things we need that we cannot produce ourself. Hold the three treasures and live your life naturally. That's Wu Wei, isn't it? Edited August 27, 2012 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Wu as meaning "natural". Wu Wei = Natural Action. Lao Zi says: I Wu Wei... Corrections: Wu is none, no, non, have not Wu Wei only implies the meaning of being Natural. Its true meaning is "Let Nature take its course". LaoZi did not say : "I Wu Wei" but he said : Thus sage said: "I Wu Wei" Edited August 27, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 27, 2012 Chapter 63, Lines 1 - 3 Note that the choice of no-choice still be a choice... the act of no-act still be an act... the flavor of no-flavor still be a flavor... the judgement of no-judgement still be judgement... To be or not to be isn't the question the question be how to be... To those who judge no-judgement I say you still be judging... Thus learn to direct being, in judgements, actions. and flavors... and a bit more... BTW if wu is none, no, have not... then would wei be action, mystery, natural way? and the meaning of wu wei be related to not the natural way but the divine way... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 ... and the meaning of wu wei be related to not the natural way but the divine way... Ah! What a question. I do not have an answer. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) A natural way is a divine way only from a point of view. No...??? Edited August 27, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted August 27, 2012 A natural way is a divine way only from a point of view. No...??? Maybe. Last line of 25 is usually translated: Tao follows what is natural. What if ziran (tzu-jan) instead of just 'natural' was more pointing at a 'spiritual naturalness'? Tao follows spiritual naturalness. [For clarity, I'm using 'spiritual' in the wu-state, or even pre-arising, sense... - rather than a 'deity-holy divine' sense] Fun stuff to ponder! Nice catch, et. (-: warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 27, 2012 the meaning of wu wei be related to not the natural way but the divine way... Ah! What a question. I do not have an answer. Maybe using different words would help to discover it.. the meaning of wu wei be related to the tao way... and that flavor of no-flavor that still be a flavor... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
