How to sit

[DanC]

Legs crossed or in a chair?? , the reason I ask is every book I have seems to suggest one over the other.

Some authors say in a chair some say legs crossed, Cohen says do the orbit in a chair but you can do

emptiness and other meditations while seates on the floor, does it really matter??

 

Daniel

[Ian]

Legs crossed or in a chair?? , the reason I ask is every book I have seems to suggest one over the other.

Some authors say in a chair some say legs crossed, Cohen says do the orbit in a chair but you can do

emptiness and other meditations while seates on the floor, does it really matter??

 

Daniel

 

For meditation which is about concentration, i.e. just developing mental abilities/clarity, then sitting in an uncomfortable position stops you drifting off, and being able to do it properly is a good indicator of progress.

 

But if your meditation has a physical element, then you sabotage yourself by sitting in a position that blocks your leg channels. Chair would be better.

 

Or so I'm told. I could never sit cross-legged myself. Used to sit on a tiny stool above my heels.

 

If you are going to sit cross legged, do get someone to show you. There's quite a lot to it.

 

Hope helps,

I

[林愛偉]

You are right, there is a lot to sitting.

Before I sat in full lotus, I sat in half lotus for many yrs,never thinkking to get to full lotus.

Then I realized that its not just the manner of sitting that is important in "attaining" certain stages,

but it is the position that taps into a certain ...manner of mind.

 

To sit in the full lotus took me about 3-5 months to sit comfortably passed the pain in the legs.

It is determination that gets one past the pain in the legs. And the numbness will take longer to set in as time goes on. But there will be numbness, and it is not going to hurt the legs. If one can, they will still be able to move energy/blood through the crossed legs during full lotus. But that stage of cultivation will take time and guidance.

 

The full lotus position shapes the body as a pyramid. The head being the upmost point, and the knees being the base. A pyramid is an energy absorber, as well as a great energy giver. Sitting in a position that locks the likeness of a pyramid will itself begin to lock into higher energies.. it allows the mind to do that.

Ofcourse, given the stage of mind at the time, one will only be able to recognize what they will be able to recognzie. That is why talking of other's benefits really does nothing to the person just learning, or already well cultivated.

 

There are manners inwhich to have the numbness go away quicker. Massaging in a downward motion on the outside of the legs starting from under the knee down along the muscular part of the shins opposite the shin bone. Left leg, outer left side. Right leg, outer right side. Move downward down to the toes.

One can also, once regaining some feeling, slowly stand and bring the chest to the knees, stretching the back of the legs.

 

THere are more, but those should be under guidance, as well as for the backpain acquired during sitting.

 

Peace,

Edited December 4, 2006 by 林愛偉

[hagar]

In my experience, sitting is as good a qigong exercise for the overall qi quality in the body as any.

 

The quality of sitting is dependent on two factors. Alignment and tuning.

I don't thing the mental aspect needs further elaboration in the beginning 5 years of prolonged sitting.

 

The alignment aspect is best worked with through qi yoga and spinal qigong, to open and align the spine and the joints.

 

The tuning is more difficult. Sitting right means having found the pivotal point where you don't feel the need to move anymore. You just channel the cosmic energy.(I'm way off this goal at the moment) When the tuning is right, the body is like an antenna that "plugs" into the sky and the earth like an axis. It feels almost like your spine continues all the way up to the sky and down to the center of the earth. It is very comfortabe. When I have been able to reach this state, there is really no need detach from anything, or be "present". You just sit, and there is nowhere to go.

 

The right quality of the meditation comes when these two aspects are harmonious.

 

In my experience, sitting is as good a qigong exercise for the overall qi quality in the body as any.

 

The quality of sitting is dependent on two factors. Alignment and tuning.

I don't thing the mental aspect needs further elaboration in the beginning 5 years of prolonged sitting.

 

The alignment aspect is best worked with through qi yoga and spinal qigong, to open and align the spine and the joints.

 

The tuning is more difficult. Sitting right means having found the pivotal point where you don't feel the need to move anymore. You just channel the cosmic energy.(I'm way off this goal at the moment) When the tuning is right, the body is like an antenna that "plugs" into the sky and the earth like an axis. It feels almost like your spine continues all the way up to the sky and down to the center of the earth. It is very comfortabe. When I have been able to reach this state, there is really no need detach from anything, or be "present". You just sit, and there is nowhere to go.

 

The right quality of the meditation comes when these two aspects are harmonious.

 

One more thing:

 

Working with sitting cross-legged is by far the best way to reach this goal. You are in much better contact with the earth, and the muddy parts of the system goes down, while the bright parts go up. In sitting on a chair, these things happen much slower. Also, sitting cross-legged focus the energy in the center of the body, and makes you recover and re-charge much better than sitting on a chair.

The only situation when sitting on a chair is best is when you are in a beginning stage of cultivation ,and needs a reference point as to how it feels to experience a meditative state without the body interfering.

[Yoda]

Cool thread topic.

 

I'd say whichever feels the best, so that you are more likely to continue with sitting practices which I believe to be the most important daily habit out there, especially the tranquility based ones.

 

I love the feeling of my feet flat against the earth, but I'm in the cross legged camp. Siddhasana (heel under the perineum) alternated with the Burmese lotus.

 

-Yoda

[thelerner]

When on the floor I find a firm cushion (zafu) is a must. It raises the butt, helps the spine stay straight and allows for longer more comfortable sitting. Even after years of sitting I have to keep vigilant about a 'lazy' lower back, that slumps if I don't watch it.

 

Other then that I keep a pretend elastic cord going along my back up my head and down my back fairly taut. Another running across my shoulders a bit stretched, my chin slightly down, eyes closed and I'm ready to rock.

 

Michael

 

For most of my guided meditations I lie down on the bed. I like having a soba kawa pillow lying on my chest and stomach sometimes another propping up my knees. Its nice to have a soft herbal eye pillow on my eyes too. Large headphones on the ears and I'm ready to zone out to where ever they take me. The Archaeous series by Rawn Clark I listen to standing up.

[rex]

It took me years to be able to sit comfortably cross legged. Sitting time went up in increments from 5 minutes to about 2 hours. Zafus don't work for me but it's good to have a comfy cushion or cushions that keep the hips higher than the knees. Any pain from sports injuries can be compensated by placing cushions under the knees. A rug or towel to cushon the ankles from the floor is also good. Also, for me, there can be a tendency to lean forward too much. Sitting upright in a cross legged positon gives the body that triangular geometry which according to Buddhist cosmology is characteristic of the humans living in the Jambudvipa continent i.e. us!

[Smile]

I had trouble sitting cross-legged for a long time but after spending 11 days at Vipassana retreat sitting 11 hours a day it became an easy thing. I think it comes more to the state of your mind and the energy quality. At certain stages you body even may go into lotus by itself. Either way, sitting in the chair or in half/full lotus don't make much difference at the begining stages of the mind/body cultivation. If you can force yourself into lotus and then suffer through it and have trouble keeping your regular practice hours because of the pain expected, would it be a smart thing to do? Following your inner drive is important when it comes to spiritual practices.

[sean]

I have been meditating a lot lately and finding myself spontaneously getting into lotus position for periods of time. I can only handle full lotus for about forty minutes before the pain makes me fear I may be hurting myself. But this time is extending a few minutes here and there. Full lotus really does have a distinct energy to it that pulls my mind into deep silence. I can imagine how opening oneself up to being capable of sitting in full lotus without back support for extended periods of time ... well I think the process of finding comfort and peace with this position would require a real stripping away of held tensions in my body and mental resistance to the moment.

 

Anyone watch that video rex posted of the guy jumping up into lotus position in the air, and landing in it? Pretty cool!

 

Sean

[Yoda]

Full lotus is way beyond me.

[spyrelx]

Full lotus is way beyond me.

 

And me as well.

 

How do you all feel about a zazen bench? That's my preferred sitting posture these days.

 

I always feel rather conflicted about it. On the one hand, millions of Japanese buddhists can't be wrong, but on the other it seems to suffer from deficiencies compared to both lotus and chair sitting -- i.e., your energy isn't all self contained as in lotus and you're feet aren't connected to the earth as in chair sitting.

 

Anyone ever read anything about the energetic properties of sitting zazen?

[thelerner]

In Aikido we did a lot of sitting seiza (zazen). I like it, but like the lotus it takes practice and unless you're a real light weight I don't think its ever painfree after a certain period. Matter of fact I don't think its numbness free unless you've done it since you're a kid and developed rounded veins (my sensei's theory). But you can sit through the pain and numbness. The secret for going longer painfree is to sit as lightly as possible, as though there's silk between your butt and ankles and you just want to touch it.

 

Its great for keeping your back straight and breathing big. Maybe its half way between active standing and passive sitting.

 

Michael

[Taoist81]

Yeah the "zazen" posture is my personal practice. One must not forget that the lotus etc are not the only asanas used for meditation even in yoga. Actually the "zazen" type posture is an asana (called the dragon or some such). As for your feet connected to the earth, well I don't know how many of you only meditate barefoot outside, but for the rest of us our feet are never "in direct contact" with the Earth. However, the Earth is our entire environment (unless you are posting from space) so in pretty much any location, house, apartment etc. you can be in direct contact with the "element" of earth, because as a child of Mother Nature you contain the Earth. A Taoist master (sorry sources fail me right now, I am at work) perhaps in Cleary's commentary to the Secret of the Golden Flower said something to the effect of "you don't have to sit like a yogi to ..." something to the effect of gain enlightenment. If you can find a comfortable stable posture and look inside that is all you need. "see simplicity" as Lao Tzu put it.

[Yoda]

I always feel rather conflicted about it. On the one hand, millions of Japanese buddhists can't be wrong, but on the other it seems to suffer from deficiencies compared to both lotus and chair sitting -- i.e., your energy isn't all self contained as in lotus and you're feet aren't connected to the earth as in chair sitting.

 

It's by far the best for spinal posture, which is arguably the most important aspect. The kneeling camp appears to be well grounded, samurais and all.

[sean]

Here's an article on various stretches you can do to make the transition into lotus easier, for anyone drawn to this asana: How to Grow a Lotus?.

 

Sean

[taolpha]

Here's an article on various stretches you can do to make the transition into lotus easier, for anyone drawn to this asana: How to Grow a Lotus?.

 

Sean

 

Very cool thread and thanks for the link here. I've been doing a Tai Chi short form for about three months and would like to do some stilled meditation but haven't found the time yet. This will be very help full for when I get there.

 

/taolpha

[Spectrum]

"and the knees being the base"

<- knees and hui yin? this would be 3 points of the base, with the pei hui (crown) being the capstone and 4th point to the pyramid...

 

I've noticed a certain importance to stacking the vertebra in as vertical of a manner as possible, whether sitting indian style, half lotus, full lotus or standing.

 

.

[sean]

I've noticed a certain importance to stacking the vertebra in as vertical of a manner as possible, whether sitting indian style, half lotus, full lotus or standing.

I have noticed this as well and it reminds me of something one of my teachers Liu Ming taught me. I'll paraphrase what I got from his lesson. Basically it was that there is another dynamic that is very important. From the tantien down there is a feeling of rooting, of being stabilized and even gently pulled downward. Then from the tantien up there is a feeling of everything floating, even a gentle pull upwards. He actually specifically told me not to focus on this stacking quality, but instead to allow this soft pulling apart to happen instead. I've experimented with it and it took some getting used to, as I'd intuitively been doing more of the "stack approach" for years. Now when I am meditating, when my mind shifts to my alignment I still remember his advice and let myself feel into his suggestion. No big result to report from doing this, it's a subtle thing ... just an interesting detail I learned I thought I'd share.

 

Sean

[Treena]

Basically it was that there is another dynamic that is very important. From the tantien down there is a feeling of rooting, of being stabilized and even gently pulled downward. Then from the tantien up there is a feeling of everything floating, even a gentle pull upwards. He actually specifically told me not to focus on this stacking quality, but instead to allow this soft pulling apart to happen instead.

 

Thanks for that tip, Sean! Tried it today with my standing postures and it made a distinct difference for the better. Heaven and Earth. Our lower half rooted in the Earth. Our upper half connected to the Heavens.

[Spectrum]

I have noticed this as well and it reminds me of something one of my teachers Liu Ming taught me. I'll paraphrase what I got from his lesson. Basically it was that there is another dynamic that is very important. From the tantien down there is a feeling of rooting, of being stabilized and even gently pulled downward. Then from the tantien up there is a feeling of everything floating, even a gentle pull upwards. He actually specifically told me not to focus on this stacking quality, but instead to allow this soft pulling apart to happen instead. I've experimented with it and it took some getting used to, as I'd intuitively been doing more of the "stack approach" for years. Now when I am meditating, when my mind shifts to my alignment I still remember his advice and let myself feel into his suggestion. No big result to report from doing this, it's a subtle thing ... just an interesting detail I learned I thought I'd share.

 

Sean

 

I'd say if your feeling like your floating and sinking at the same time your doing something right. Sounds like Taoist wisdom.