STREET FIGHT/ VIOLENCE, How to cope with it?

Ming · August 12, 2012

I would like to develop on the very good topic “IS VIOLENCE JUSTIFIED?”

One day, I was in the street with a friend, sat on the ground near a high school when a kind of drug dealer came around, asking if we wanted to get some stuff …etc… The guy kept harassing us and it pissed me off since he started to kind of ask for trouble with my friend and my friend let him do so. The more my friend tried to stop the conversation the more the other guy came back to him, insulting him and so forth. Since I couldn’t put up with him (it was humiliating and almost like a racket in front of me!), I talked back to him to stir things up to avoid my friend any more pain in the neck. The guy took it badly, I answered. Shit got escalated… I was on the brink of fighting in the street, to defend a friend. I was looking straight to the eye like “If you try to punch me, you’re dead (I would have seriously killed him, cause it felt like it was me or him)”. The guy saw I was not a big mouth but kept going.

Right at that point though, right before I lose control and go wild (which I hardly do and try not to), I realised something. Losing it all, life etc (the dealer got a knife on him, unlike me, and I realized that later, but I wouldn’t have cared back then since I would have given my all to smash his face) for a simple fight on the street (and to help out a friend…which to me, is a good reason) was not what I wanted/expected for me and IS VERY SILLY. But I felt that I had to do it for my friend out of bravery… I felt that if I didn’t help him out, I would face myself in the mirror saying to myself “Coward, you don’t even help your friend and call yourself a man”.

Hopefully, a friend of the dealer split us just at the right moment but in hindsight, it could have gone VERY far and I could or he could have been dead by now. Then after that, to calm things down, I finally apologized (after my realization, my heart was not in the mood but it got the dealer to stop showing off and not bully us now…that’s what they call respect? ^^) and feelings weren’t running high any more… and we got away.

It’s very silly. I try to be peaceful the most I can. I’m Taoist and preach non-violence. I wanna turn the other cheek. But if someone hurt the ones you love, or kill them…etc.. will not acting be an act of Cowardice or is acting an excuse for violence you got inside you (I’m not proud of that either).

For those of you who lived or live in dangerous places and know what it’s like, maybe you’ll understand. I, for one, often act like a dare devil to protect my friends but to what end? This is not a simple argument with a workmate, this is street fight and can result way worse and faster. It’s a matter of life and death. This kind of situation can happen anytime. That’s why it’s serious.

Therefore, I have some practical questions :

In the face of danger for you and your family, would you put your taoist ideals aside and strike back for some “so-called” good reason (which is saddening because you’re still too much attached to people or feelings…and peace of mind seems far away haha), or would you be strong enough to turn the other cheek and face your karma without feeling like a coward hiding behind some Taoist excuses because you are afraid to die like a hero?

How do you deal with muggers?

They say Hell is paved with good reasons. Defending oneself is violent but is lying to oneself worse? If your country were at war, would dying for honesty worth it, even for a stupid fight?

I count on you to let me know what you think about it.

Thanks for having had the patience to read my story.

Peace.

Ming

Edited August 12, 2012 by Ming

swampland · August 12, 2012

Hi Ming,

I haven't really been in a situation like you. Since, I've only got "attacked" when I was by myself, but pretty much in the same way, you're describing here.

People come near you and do not leave you alone and say provocing things.

So, I'm not trying to answer these general questions, but rather I want to think about the very situation you're describing and the feelings you had about it.

Feelings and drives like needing to help your friend.

In the Situations I've described in the first paragraph, I always ran away without fighting. So a practical solution to that situation would have been saying to your friend that you'd find it a good idea to run now.

Now I see the psychological danger in this. Like the loss of territory, that didn't really occur but is deeply felt.

In fact I feel it up until now by choosing to run. It leaves you with the feeling of beeing weak.

From this point of view, it would surely have been a necessity to defend yourself,

but regarding the situation without this component, it wasn't.

Until there is nothing that physically keeps you from running, you can run. And you can tell your friend to do so, too.

That might seem a bit strange to your opponent and probably to your friend, but it's probably safest.

And stuff like the feeling you're a coward that comes afterwards i mainly just a feeling (that's about impossible to get rid off).

However, if you know you can never recover from feeling like a coward, I would probably fight anyway, because it's probably much less of a pain to get injured, than having to live with the feeling of beeing a coward in this case.

I wouldn't let the practice of "non-violence" be a stiff goal. Because much more important is your personal integrity. You have to face the challenge on one level. And you can decide whether that's going to be the psychological level (risk of feeling like a coward), or the physical level (risk of injury).

I hope you can make use of my cumbersome formulation.

zhoupeng · August 12, 2012

..Since I couldn’t put up with him (it was humiliating and almost like a racket in front of me!), I talked back to him to stir things up to avoid my friend any more pain in the neck. The guy took it badly, I answered. Shit got escalated… I was on the brink of fighting in the street, to defend a friend...

...this is street fight and can result way worse and faster. It’s a matter of life and death. This kind of situation can happen anytime. That’s why it’s serious.

In our hearts, no one would consciously want to be a coward. It makes us dislike ourselves for being helpless in a situation where we often wish we could have acted otherwise. But we must always ask ourselves what makes us feel like cowards, and whether or not it is a valid reason (to make one feel like a coward, not actually act it out and be one).

I do not believe that avoiding a street fight is necessarily a good reason good reason for feeling like a coward, but that's just me.

Forget Taoism for the moment and let's look at it from a different perspective:

In each of the following steps of escalation, you had the choice to either

a) Ignore him or tell him to Fuk off or walking away

b Escalate the confrontation through insults and threats while getting angry

c) Start Fighting

1) The guy came over and started insulting your friend. You didn't like this.

2) You decided get involved because he was disrespecting your friend.

3) You both get angry and start shouting and threatening each other.

4) The guy's friend comes over and he gets involved.

As the sequence of events progresses from 1 to 4, it does not appear to me that if you had chosen to respond with choice a) at any point then you would have been a coward. Not that b or c) makes you a coward either, mind you.

So you might want to think about what exactly you made you feel like you were going to a coward at that time.

As for your question about violence, Iet's ignore the discussion about cowardice for now and revisit the same sequence of events outlined above.

Obviously I am not advocating violence or street fighting but throwing outcome out of the window, at which points in steps 1) to 4) did you feel you should have chosen choice c)?

Hit him when he started insulting your friend?

Hit him only when both you and him have started insulting each other and gotten angry?

Hit him when his friend decides to get involved?

I am no security expert but maybe you should save the violence for when you and your friend really are in danger. And that quick, sudden violence is more of an effective solution than an attractive prospect.

When it is time you just Act. Just like that.

Solve the problem and get out.

No more or less than is necessary.

Make it clean.

If the situation calls for it, Do it.

None of us really need Choice b

Edited August 12, 2012 by zhoupeng

Ming · August 12, 2012

Hi Ming,

I haven't really been in a situation like you. Since, I've only got "attacked" when I was by myself, but pretty much in the same way, you're describing here.

People come near you and do not leave you alone and say provocing things.

So, I'm not trying to answer these general questions, but rather I want to think about the very situation you're describing and the feelings you had about it.

Feelings and drives like needing to help your friend.

In the Situations I've described in the first paragraph, I always ran away without fighting. So a practical solution to that situation would have been saying to your friend that you'd find it a good idea to run now.

Now I see the psychological danger in this. Like the loss of territory, that didn't really occur but is deeply felt.

In fact I feel it up until now by choosing to run. It leaves you with the feeling of beeing weak.

From this point of view, it would surely have been a necessity to defend yourself,

but regarding the situation without this component, it wasn't.

Until there is nothing that physically keeps you from running, you can run. And you can tell your friend to do so, too.

That might seem a bit strange to your opponent and probably to your friend, but it's probably safest.

And stuff like the feeling you're a coward that comes afterwards i mainly just a feeling (that's about impossible to get rid off).

However, if you know you can never recover from feeling like a coward, I would probably fight anyway, because it's probably much less of a pain to get injured, than having to live with the feeling of beeing a coward in this case.

I wouldn't let the practice of "non-violence" be a stiff goal. Because much more important is your personal integrity. You have to face the challenge on one level. And you can decide whether that's going to be the psychological level (risk of feeling like a coward), or the physical level (risk of injury).

I hope you can make use of my cumbersome formulation.

Hi,

Thanks for the answer.

I agree with you on the fact that going away or running is a good option. Back then, I didn’t think of it since the guy would keep coming back at us but it could have been an option, it’s true.

I often wonder how high-spirited people would react if they were being mugged: would they convince their aggressors to drop it, or give them everything they got and bless them, or beat the shit out of them and bless them then?

It may idealistic but I don’t see the point of Taoism (or any religion if any) if it’s not practical. Because here is the real mirror: Dealing with our own dark sides when we are in danger. Others’ dark sides are a representation of our own’s. We see our real selves. That’s when we learn the most. It is in the hardest storm that we see the most brilliant captains.

I think you summed it up with this sentence on Violence:

“ You have to face the challenge on one level. And you can decide whether that's going to be the psychological level (risk of feeling like a coward), or the physical level (risk of injury).”

Indeed, I don’t think there’s any other way.

So, thanks again a lot for your feedback. It proved helpful. I guess it’s one thing we all have to deal with, in one way or another someday. And that’s for each one of us to make the right call.

Cheers.

Ming

Ming · August 12, 2012

Hi Ming,

I haven't really been in a situation like you. Since, I've only got "attacked" when I was by myself, but pretty much in the same way, you're describing here.

People come near you and do not leave you alone and say provocing things.

So, I'm not trying to answer these general questions, but rather I want to think about the very situation you're describing and the feelings you had about it.

Feelings and drives like needing to help your friend.

In the Situations I've described in the first paragraph, I always ran away without fighting. So a practical solution to that situation would have been saying to your friend that you'd find it a good idea to run now.

Now I see the psychological danger in this. Like the loss of territory, that didn't really occur but is deeply felt.

In fact I feel it up until now by choosing to run. It leaves you with the feeling of beeing weak.

From this point of view, it would surely have been a necessity to defend yourself,

but regarding the situation without this component, it wasn't.

Until there is nothing that physically keeps you from running, you can run. And you can tell your friend to do so, too.

That might seem a bit strange to your opponent and probably to your friend, but it's probably safest.

And stuff like the feeling you're a coward that comes afterwards i mainly just a feeling (that's about impossible to get rid off).

However, if you know you can never recover from feeling like a coward, I would probably fight anyway, because it's probably much less of a pain to get injured, than having to live with the feeling of beeing a coward in this case.

I wouldn't let the practice of "non-violence" be a stiff goal. Because much more important is your personal integrity. You have to face the challenge on one level. And you can decide whether that's going to be the psychological level (risk of feeling like a coward), or the physical level (risk of injury).

I hope you can make use of my cumbersome formulation.

Hi,

Thanks for the answer.

I agree with you on the fact that going away or running is a good option. Back then, I didn’t think of it since the guy would keep coming back at us but it could have been an option, it’s true.

I often wonder how high-spirited people would react if they were being mugged: would they convince their aggressors to drop it, or give them everything they got and bless them, or beat the shit out of them and bless them then?

It may idealistic but I don’t see the point of Taoism (or any religion if any) if it’s not practical. Because here is the real mirror: Dealing with our own dark sides when we are in danger. Others’ dark sides are a representation of our own’s. We see our real selves. That’s when we learn the most. It is in the hardest storm that we see the most brilliant captains.

I think you summed it up with this sentence on Violence:

“ You have to face the challenge on one level. And you can decide whether that's going to be the psychological level (risk of feeling like a coward), or the physical level (risk of injury).”

Indeed, I don’t think there’s any other way.

So, thanks again a lot for your feedback. It proved helpful. I guess it’s one thing we all have to deal with, in one way or another someday. And that’s for each one of us to make the right call.

Cheers.

Ming

Ming · August 12, 2012

Sorry for the message that appeared twice. Problem of connexion.

Ming · August 12, 2012

So you might want to think about what exactly you made you feel like you were going to a coward at that time.

To answer that : Not helping a friend who's being almost attacked in front of me. A friend in need is a friend indeed.

In hindsight, stirring it up might not have been the best way to solve the issue. Leaving would have been better.. But that's all I found, at that time, to get the attention from my friend to me though. Violence was more a last resort thing, which hopefully I didn't resort to. I do not like fights either, nobody does. Confrontration had this effect in that the guy, which clearly didn't wanna move, took me seriously.

In street codes, so many people call it a bluff with their big mouths and you gotta make yourself heard to make sure it's gonna be alright. Not too weak, not too strong. So I guess it was rather instinctive.

I'd say none of us need choice c which implied fighting, cause it's worse than confrontation. Confrontation and argument is a test before it and the situation can improve through it. Fights need more time and more efforts.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

thelerner · August 12, 2012

I've lived and worked in some dangerous areas. I've been fine by lessening my ego, following my gut, and walking away. There's nothing to be gained by arguing with a drug dealer, gang member or deranged individual. I'm glad things worked out well, but you stirred things up when perhaps you should have said, 'Let's go'

There are times you have to defend what is real, but words are wind.

et-thoughts · August 12, 2012

I would like to develop on the very good topic “IS VIOLENCE JUSTIFIED?”

Ming

Ming,

My two cents on this ... For quite some time I wondered and pondered about the question "How do you get a bully not to be a bully without bulling them"? In a way its sort of what you be asking. How does one deal with violence? How does one get the violent not to be violent without violence? I basically found two answers though only one responds the question while remaining put.

The common response would be to walk away - avoid the confrontation "run from the violence"

The response that I prefer is to dance jujitsu stile (I meant to write style, though the definition of stile seems quite appropriate fit)

'To dance' one has to direct energy flows in the most effective and enriching ways. Move with the other so that 'a slap' becomes 'a caress'. I imagine that you can envision how someone with agility can react in such a way as to ensure that the intended blow never becomes such and just graces one and becomes a caress that gives the energy to gracefully move with the other dancing around until the other gets to vent out their energies within a dance rather than a fight. I just made a new connection that I had not seen before. Moving out of the way while remaining standing where one be is quite possible.

I would also say that the stories told influence what takes place.

When a stupid persons tells me I am stupid I know they are projecting unto me their condition.

When someone who is wrong tells me I am wrong, when I am right, I know that they are wrong and have just prove it once again. If they told me I was right I would wonder wether it be because I am wrong or because they recognized the truth :-)

would like to balance and bias this post towards positive words ...

- playful, to be playful with play

- How does one cultivate peace and kindness?

- How do the peaceful instill peace wherever they be?

- Infinite possibilities, some remain as just that possibilities...

- recognize the situation transform it by moving and dancing

- run to the encounter, embrace the situation, and dance!

- "Stile" - steps that allows 'people' but not 'animals' to climb over a fence or wall and find peace and protection

- When a being tells me I am this or that I know they are projecting unto me their condition and I accept the invitation to play or dance a song... will it it be their way or my way or the better way whichever happens that to be.

When someone who is this or that tells me something, I know what they want to cultivate and when they act I realize whether they do as they claim... Whatever they told me, I would wonder wether it be because they recognized the truth and want to share it, because they know the truth and what to hide it :-), because thats the story they know... and many other possibilities...

BTW the best way to win a fight involves winning before it even becomes that... while managing to create respect!

ok now will see what others have said and may complement this...

One way is to

et-thoughts · August 12, 2012

the most brilliant captains... can thread the winds and seas without getting caught in the hardest of storms... while using the strong winds and waves to their advantage...please note the paradoxical incongruence when the measure of a captain's brilliant capabilities involves observing them into the hardest of storms ... its akin to the paradoxical incongruence that love is measured by how much one willingly suffers! Those who love realize that the measure of love involves only love and what one does for love... the caring, kind, joyful acts one gives to others...

cheers

Protector · August 12, 2012

I wish tai chi would become more popular around the forum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpgE3WIhOqc&feature=plcp

Humble · August 12, 2012

I know I'm not the only person here to have ever taught martial arts and this is just my opinion but what I always told my students was this;

" some people have let their lives and minds degrade to the point where they cannot advance in life until they have learned how weak they really are and just how very wrong their ego is. For a select violent few this may require a judicious foot in the ass. Your task, as a skilled individual, is to apply said foot in the way that is best for yourself, that person, and the world in general. You are responsible for yourself and the people around you, including an attacker(s). Know why to fight, when to fight, when to stop the fight and when to walk away."

My two cents. Hope it helps.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Humble

Harmonious Emptiness · August 12, 2012

More or less what Humble just said, but people who walk around looking for fights are basically diseased in the emotions, mind, heart, intelligence, and maturity. They might as well be barking at the moon, so I don't take it personally any more than I would towards a complete lunatic who more obviously does not have control over themselves. Just doing nothing is often offensive enough as it shows the person that they are not even worth it for you, and they might even consider why that is and reconsider their self-control, relationship to life, and ask why they are acting this way, to whom are they trying to prove something, and if any of this makes any sense?.

They are basically children on an emotional level and are usually at the mercy of other's opinions which pushes them to try and act this way. Ironically, the person who manipulates them in this way is usually a coward and tries to cover this up by pointing the finger at the impressionable.

Thus, I see little to gain by putting these people in their place and more to gain by doing nothing and letting them walk with themselves and consider the value of their behaviour.

However, if a rabid dog is a real threat, you don't just let it do as it does. There is something called "foolish kindness" and I think this obivously falls into that. Besides to be "kind" in this way ("foolish kindness") is usually to gain something from it so it's not really a kindness at all but might be motivated by way of a type of greed! Virtue in general requires doing things beyond the scope of self.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

Disabled Not Broken · August 12, 2012

maybe... this was a Lesson for Your Friend- and Not... You (?)

By interjecting yourself, you might have deprived him, of a lesson - to assert himself (?)

suninmyeyes · August 12, 2012

I've lived and worked in some dangerous areas. I've been fine by lessening my ego, following my gut, and walking away. There's nothing to be gained by arguing with a drug dealer, gang member or deranged individual.

Agreed, I was going to say this too - when that dealer came to you you should have been insightfull enough to recgonize that he enjoys pestering people and gets his pleasure from it. Do you want to give him pleasure and feed him?

Choose your battles wisely, otherwise you get scarred to often and weaken spirit.

One teacher told us about incident - that when he was younger he had a fight with a guy on the street in a self defense, but becouse of his martial skills and anger that came over him he had almost killed a guy. That day he lost big time and as he should not have let his cultivated force damage the guy so badly and still feels some loss (after long time passed away ). Nature has its ways.

http://idealpictures.co.uk/product-images/keep-calm-and-carry-on-21-500.jpg

et-thoughts · August 12, 2012

maybe... this was a Lesson for Your Friend- and Not... You (?)

By interjecting yourself, you might have deprived him, of a lesson - to assert himself (?)

Dao Jones... maybe the lesson involved multiple insights related to each and them all :-) including us

- learn to assert oneself

- learn to to restrain oneself

- seed followup interactions

- and more :-)

The underlying core issue I perceive centers on the abilities to deal with such situations ... which incidentally can be observed taking place at different scales including the global... the key resides in effective ways to interject and catalyze the better turn of events...

et-thoughts · August 12, 2012

maybe... this was a Lesson for Your Friend- and Not... You (?)

By interjecting yourself, you might have deprived him, of a lesson - to assert himself (?)

Dao Jones... maybe the lesson involved multiple insights related to each and them all :-) including us

- learn to assert oneself

- learn to to restrain oneself

- seed followup interactions

- and more :-)

The underlying core issue I perceive centers on the abilities to deal with such situations ... which incidentally can be observed taking place at different scales including the global... the key resides in effective ways to interject and catalyze the better turn of events...

fizix · August 12, 2012

"die like a hero" "taoist ideals aside" "i woulda kicked his ass d00d!" "I’m Taoist and preach non-violence" that's a contradiction in itself, Taoists don't preach, and you assume 'violence' cannot be at one point on the Path of the Taoist? Hmhmhmhm, too many assumptions, too much ego;; it all boils down to either fear or love, which will you embrace

Edited August 13, 2012 by fizix

Ming · August 12, 2012

So many answers, thank you all for that. I truly appreciate all your feedback.

For the ego, I acknowledge I’ve got some (some of you may say way too much haha probably so) and I’m not proud of that. I’m here to learn. I would say that is a lesson for me (and my friend maybe also), reminding me that my ego is still big and it’s good for me to keep working on that a lot.

I’d sum up by using some very interesting thoughts of yours:

“Know why to fight, when to fight, when to stop the fight and when to walk away”

“Choose your battles wisely, otherwise you get scarred too often and weaken spirit”

“The key resides in effective ways to interject and catalyze the better turn of events..”

Anyway, it helps to have different opinions. It allowed me to have a more comprehensive view of it.

Thanks again for all.

Ming

STREET FIGHT/ VIOLENCE, How to cope with it?

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