Empirical Data

[GeoBall]

Hello everyone,

 

Hypothetical -

 

Person 1 : I do not know for sure if it is possible that a human being can project, absorb, and manipulate this so called energy Qi, Chi, Ki. Out of the thousands of years we still have little to no scientific empirical information about such things. Now I'm not a master daoist immortal but I do understand the workings of the human body. And there are no facts to back up the sheer magnitude of followers taoism has accumilated, to be honest it is starting to remind me of christianity and what it has been molded into.

 

Person 2 : But Qi isn't electricity or magnetism though it has properties of both we cannot measure it scientifically. And the reason there is little information about the inner workings of alchemy is because if it fell into the wrong hands, the gift would be wasted or misused.

 

Person 1 : I disagree, first off if Qi has the ability to heal beyond modern medicine, move objects, catch them on fire, and halt gravity in its tracks; and there is not a scientific explanation then, doesn't that make it measurable in some way? Also if being a daoist immortal and having control of your chi is such a gift, why is the world in complete and utter chaos about to be in world war 3? Oh is that because daoist immortals don't act unless absolutely necessary?

 

Person 2: Ok so it may be possible to measure Qi scientifically we just don't know how yet. Ok so I don't know if having the ability of a daoist immortal is a gift or a curse. But Daoist need not act in warfare inaction can be action, not to mention the golden rule.

 

Person 1: I will admit the health benefits of Tai Chi, and being in a stable state of mind among many other martial arts, all of which can be explained scientifically. Qi Gong, however cannot be explained with facts. There are no facts, just wishy washy yin yang double meaning phrases and proverbs. Yet there is still much work to be done in the neuroscience field.

 

Person 2: To each their own

 

 

So, I would love to hear every ones opinion on this. Also it would be lovely if some one could provide a bit of scientific data on qi gong. Preferably facts regarding the amount of mass moved, amount of EMF, BTU, Volts, Amps, Watts, Magnetomotive Force, Field Flux or what have you. Anything regarding the phenomena that many call Qi Powers.

 

I'm not looking to argue who's right or who's wrong honestly, I just want to see if anybody can give me some hard evidence. And I've seen all the videos on the internet of individuals doing things that shouldn't be humanly possible. But if you have one you think I may have not seen by all means share it.

 

If you want to lecture me about why the secrets of internal alchemy haven't been explained yet. Again, by all means share your feelings

[Lucky7Strikes]

Qi is just a very broad term for life energy. There are varying types of qi. It isn't some mystical "force" as you understand it made up of midichloreans or some thing.

 

What you can do with this life energy with nei gong or internal cultivation method in terms of taoist alchemy is hardly attained by enough people for there to be some general study released (I think you are confusing facts with scientific, able to be reproduced, peer-reviewed evidence). Why would anyone doing such cultivation want to subject themselves to such tests anyway. Because they want "facts"? I never understood this type of mindset where it's almost expected for you to go into the lab if you are attaining to something beyond the norm, as if this person, experiencing tremendous changes in his own being needs a guy in a white lab coat to verify it with measurement tools. Only fools who can't distinguish between illusions of the mind and actual experience need that.

 

But I have no doubt internal cultivation and its effects can be measured. As a very simple yet telling example, you can look at various studies done on long time meditators and their brains. Thats an example of life energies being directed to change one's inner physiology of sorts. But really so is eating a banana and it being turned into poop.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[GeoBall]

Well that's a good point, but I've used the same exact idea before trying to convince myself.

 

Like I stated above, the health effects are obviously measurable. What I'm asking for is hard evidence to support Qi Gong is anything more than just some health regiment. Or do you have more poop for me?

[Brian]

A curious thing about "science" is that "science" tends to deny anything it cannot currently explain until it can be explained, and then it is dismissed as "just part of science." Qigong practitioners say "it's not mystical, it's just a part of nature science doesn't yet emcompass" to which scientists say "prove it!" The logical response to the demand seems to be "why?"

 

GeoBall, science cannot "prove" that you exist yet you continue existing nonetheless.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Well, now that you acknowledge the health benefits of qi gong, I don't understand why originally you wrote, "and there are no facts to back up the sheer magnitude of followers taoism has accumilated, to be honest it is starting to remind me of christianity and what it has been molded into." Here are more studies on health benefits and studies done on qi gong practitioners: http://www.qigonginstitute.org/html/database.php

 

But really I think you are asking for studies of people's abilities to manipulate their inner energies to

 

"heal beyond modern medicine, move objects, catch them on fire, and halt gravity in its tracks."

 

Good luck finding subjects to study first. The only person really public about such abilities is John Chang with that Youtube video. So your best bet is to contact him so he can go through various testing facilities so that people can map out what exactly is happening within his body, and the procedures and results from those testing to be peer reviewed and reproduced by others by repeated trials.

 

And only then when this is published, you can start practicing. But only practicing what John Chang teaches, well, because he's been tested.

 

The better question to ask is, why do you need convincing for doing something that will supposedly have remarkable effects on yourself? Would you need someone to convince you that nei gong is real when your body is filled with bliss and awareness that you are neither eating or sleeping for days? Or when your bodily sensations are exceeding beyond the skin? If you are cultivating to solely perform miracles, I'd caution against studying any energy related practices. You would basically be studying for occult purposes of which you have no idea how it works or the consequences of.

 

IMO, the problem here is that you are untrustworthy of your own self assessment of body, mind, and energies, and so when you practice you are scared of making a fool out of yourself by doing these hokey exercise that new age baby boomers do to feel spiritual or whatever, which is completely understandable. People imagine all kinds of stupid things happening when they get a tingle of new sensation called "energy." That's why as a preliminary practice, it is urged to practice perception enhancing techniques that will quiet your mind so that you can be able to see your whole system as is without imagination and see thing happening within very tangibly like your own foot.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[ChiDragon]

GeoBall...

 

I was as curious as your are about Chi Kung. I have the same type of questions as you have. I had found some scientific answers to my satisfaction and always wanted to share them with an open-minded person. I am glad that this person has emerged and that is you.

 

I am glad to discuss the items you have listed in the OP.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Geoball,

 

The best evidence is the evidence you experience for yourself in meditation. I was a hard core atheist until 2005, when I experienced events that affected friends and family as well as myself as a result of a form of meditation I was practicing.

 

I would like to share with you some videos and information:

 

 

Tummo (inner fire) meditation Master Wim Hof demonstrating control over his immune system via meditation:

 

 

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110422090203.htm

 

Research On 'Iceman' Wim Hof Suggests It May Be Possible to Influence Autonomic Nervous System and Immune Response

 

 

ScienceDaily (Apr. 22, 2011) — At the Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre, professor of experimental intensive care medicine Dr. Peter Pickkers and his team have performed research on "Iceman" Wim Hof. Hof claims that he can influence his autonomic nervous system and immune response through concentration and meditation. The results obtained are remarkable, however, the investigators emphasize that so far, these results have only been obtained in a single individual. Therefore, they can not serve as scientific evidence for the hypothesis that the autonomic nervous system and the immune response can be influenced through concentration and meditation techniques. Further research with larger groups is warranted.

 

Research on the immune response

 

A well-functioning immune system protects us against viruses and bacteria. However, excessive activation of the immune system can cause tissue and organ damage. The immune system is, in part, controlled by the autonomic nervous system, a system which cannot be deliberately influenced. Professor Peter Pickkers and PhD candidate Matthijs Kox investigate the effects of the autonomic nervous system on the immune response.

 

Pickkers said: "We administer endotoxin, a dead cell-wall component of bacteria, to healthy volunteers. The immune system reacts as if real live bacteria have entered the body and mounts an immune response characterized by the production of inflammatory mediators and flu-like symptoms like fever, chills and headache. These experiments are completely safe and have been performed on more than 240 subjects in our centre."

 

Results obtained in the Iceman

 

Wim Hof is well known for his remarkable activities in extremely low temperatures. Hof claims that he can influence his autonomic nervous system and thereby suppress his immune response through concentration and meditation.

 

To investigate this, Hof was administered endotoxin while practising his concentration and meditation technique. During this experiment, various measurements were performed, including brain activity, autonomic nervous system activity and inflammatory mediators in the blood.

 

Pickkers said: "After endotoxin administration, the increase of the stress hormone cortisol in Hof was much more pronounced compared to other healthy volunteers. We know that this hormone is released in response to increased autonomic nervous system activity and that it suppresses the immune response. In accordance, the levels of inflammatory mediators in Hof's blood were much lower. On average, Hof's immune response was decreased by 50 percent compared to other healthy volunteers. In addition, hardly any flu-like symptoms were observed. These results are definitely remarkable. However, so far, they have only been obtained in a single individual and therefore cannot serve as scientific evidence for the hypothesis that the autonomic nervous system and the immune response can be influenced through concentration and meditation techniques. Further research is warranted in which a group of volunteers that have acquired Hof's concentration and meditation technique is compared to a group that does not master this technique."

[Thunder_Gooch]

More Wim Hof:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfCsSDiPZxk

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=madoDvtKEes

 

As well as:

 

http://news.harvard....8/09-tummo.html

 

 

During visits to remote monasteries in the 1980s, Benson and his team studied monks living in the Himalayan Mountains who could, by g Tum-mo meditation, raise the temperatures of their fingers and toes by as much as 17 degrees. It has yet to be determined how the monks are able to generate such heat.

 

The researchers also made measurements on practitioners of other forms of advanced meditation in Sikkim, India. They were astonished to find that these monks could lower their metabolism by 64 percent.

 

To put that decrease in perspective, metabolism, or oxygen consumption, drops only 10-15 percent in sleep and about 17 percent during simple meditation.

 

In 1985, the meditation team made a video of monks drying cold, wet sheets with body heat. They also documented monks spending a winter night on a rocky ledge 15,000 feet high in the Himalayas. The sleep-out took place in February on the night of the winter full moon when temperatures reached zero degrees F. Wearing only woolen or cotton shawls, the monks promptly fell asleep on the rocky ledge, They did not huddle together and the video shows no evidence of shivering. They slept until dawn then walked back to their monastery.

Edited August 14, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

http://www.amazon.co.../dp/0965713571/

 

I own this book and it documents much research done in China in the 80's on the subject. It documents electrostatic, electromagnetic, infrared, and infrasonic anomalies during external chi emission.

 

As well as:

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/1353653

 

Detection of extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength from human hand during external Qi emission.

Seto A, Kusaka C, Nakazato S, Huang WR, Sato T, Hisamitsu T, Takeshige C.

 

Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Showa University, Tokyo, Japan.

 

It is generally accepted that more than 10(-6) gauss order magnetism was not detected in normal human condition. However, we detected 10(-3) gauss (mGauss) order bio-magnetic field strength from the palm in special persons who emitted External Qi ("Chi" or "Ki"). This detection was possible by special arranged magnetic field detection system, consisted of a pair of 2 identical coils with 80,000 turns and a high sensitivity amplifier. Each of the coils were rolled 80,000 turns accurately, and were connected in series in opposite direction, actuating as a gradiometer.

 

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm..../pubmed/9051169

 

Emission of extremely strong magnetic fields from the head and whole body during oriental breathing exercises.

Hisamitsu T, Seto A, Nakazato S, Yamamoto T, Aung SK.

 

Department of Physiology, Showa University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.

 

This article reports the result of an experiment that was designed to measure the biomagnetic field emanating from two individuals who were practising traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing exercises. The biomagnetic field was measured with differential coils wound 80,000 turns, a magnetic needle compass and a digital electromagnetic wave detection device. It was found that an extremely strong magnetic field was emitted from the two individuals. One subject emitted a magnetic field at the level of 200-300 mT (2-3 mGauss) and the other at 0.13 mT (1.3 mGauss). In both cases, moreover, the magnetic needle compass rotated 30 degrees (this was tested 32 times). When the rotation of the needle occurred, a reproducible magnetic field of 800-1500 mT (8-15 mGauss) was indicated on the digital measuring device (this was tested 12 times). It is concluded that traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing appears to stimulate an unusually large biomagnetic field emission.

Edited August 14, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MoOgZsQGQpA

 

BBC documentary Sky One series 'Myths Magic And Monsters'

 

Host: Dr. Lawrence Blair (Ph.D. Anthropology)

 

Catherine Nixon Cooke President of the Mind Science Foundation

http://www.mindscience.org/

 

Roger Nilson (M.D. Orthopedic Surgeon Sweden)

 

Dr. Gregory V. Simpson (Ph.D. Biophysics Albert Einstein College of Medicine)

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Chang's top western student passing his level 3 exam (home video)

 

Older footage from the 80's of Chang:

 

[Protector]

Hey look, it's this thread again

 

Since a very freaking long time in Europe/Egypt, that area, there has been a field of science dealing with chi called Hermetics

They even use chi to build machines that kinda run on chi

One person even build a device that can measure chi, I forgot what it's called but I remember that aluminum is an important part

[konchog uma]

does anyone have the links to those chinese vids about the four medical qigong practitioners making that tumor disappear on video?

[GeoBall]

I've seen all those videos More pie thanks. And if you could tell me more about what your talking about Sinfest I'd appreciate it. Thanks Chi-Dragon.

 

So..at this point there is little to no proof that qi qong is nothing but a advanced health regiment? That explains why More Pie Guy is obsessed with powers.

 

GeoBall, science cannot "prove" that you exist yet you continue existing nonetheless.

 

Oh and Seeker, "I" does not exist ;]

You think that's air you're breathing?

Edited August 14, 2012 by GeoBall

[Protector]

Aluminum's properties make it easier to move, it's kinda a common knowledge that if you're projecting chi or doing some major work with it you shouldn't touch metal

Wood for example conducts chi easily because when it was still a tree it was using chi to do stuff

Metal is a refined material and it never conducted chi and it wont unless a super powerful person forces it to

 

All this chi stuff cannot be summarized in one post

You are either a mechanic or a race car driver, you can't just drive a car for few days and decide that you know how it works

A lot of stuff about chi out there are things mechanics told people not to do and rules to follow

 

If you feel like it, read the learning thread in my signature

http://thetaobums.com/topic/22974-time-to-learn/

Maybe I should continue it hmm...

[GeoBall]

Yeah that sounds cool and all very logical and thought out. But I was mainly interested to hear what you had to say about Hermetics and the machines that run on chi.

[Protector]

Oh that, you know about talismans in Taoist religions? These things are given power by infusing them with the intention of the maker, to have good luck for example

Chi is energy that power intention so normal people use chi to move their body and do all sorts of things, nei gong is kinda like hacking your body into doing what you want with it

Human body is like a big machine that uses chi a lot, but it normally uses chi that is around the body

Chi is also an energy that follows course of less resistance, so for normal people it's easier to move a cup with their hand instead of levitating it with their mind or something

 

The body is like a closed circuit so it's hard to sent energy outside and bring it back, it's like seeing sparks fly off of wires

So, if you want to make a working talisman you need to make it a part of your body by making your "wires" run through it

It's like doing exercises, you do push ups a lot and after some time they become easier to do

To make chi travel easier through a talisman, the priest writes words on it to make them a conductor

Its like people talking to each other to send a message, you just make sound but the other person knows what they mean

 

So for example you want to make a talisman that bursts into flames, you would need a piece of paper and to write on it "fire" or "flames" or something like that

Just doing that won't make the thing work, because words "fire" and "flames" are meaningless

What you really need is an intense experience of feeling intense heat, that feeling of heat might be a memory of being stuck in a burning building that makes it very intense

That memory creates a trauma and every time a traumatized person will hear "fire" they will remember the feeling they had back then

That feeling would be just in the mind of the person and could easily be recreated in meditation

But that still doesn't make it real without chi

Chi is energy that powers intention so to make that fire real, there needs to be enough energy as at that time of the other fire

With that energy the priest becomes the flame and moves it into the talisman

The talisman is like another arm, you will your arm to move and it moves because of chi, talisman will burn because of that, too

That is the most basic idea

 

In Hermetics there are actual recipes for the inc and paper that make things work

Remember how metal doesn't conduct chi, wood does so the intention will leave that fire talisman

One of the things that were made by Hermetic scholars were paintings

The artists would take so much time drawing the painting with special ink that their feeling get absorbed by it

And what keeps these feelings intact are the special made frames, after some time the paintings will get haunted and the only way to destroy they is by destroying the frame

 

I remember there was another machine made mostly of metal, used to focus energy of a few individuals on one thing inside it

If it's a picture of a person, then they might do something to that person by using the machine

 

Anyway, have some tangible things

This chi with metal phenomena has been touched by modern science and the discoverer of this energy called it Orgone Energy, there's a lot of stuff about it online and easy to find

 

There are also a lot of haunted painting footage online so some of it might be real

The similar thing is also found in Voodoo religion

 

If you want to get some reading on Hermetics then I would recommend reading the work of Franz Bardon as a start

His books are kinda old by now and are given away for free online

 

 

 

ah, spelling lol

Edited August 15, 2012 by Sinfest

[GeoBall]

Interesting

[Thunder_Gooch]

Aluminum's properties make it easier to move, it's kinda a common knowledge that if you're projecting chi or doing some major work with it you shouldn't touch metal

Wood for example conducts chi easily because when it was still a tree it was using chi to do stuff

Metal is a refined material and it never conducted chi and it wont unless a super powerful person forces it to

 

All this chi stuff cannot be summarized in one post

You are either a mechanic or a race car driver, you can't just drive a car for few days and decide that you know how it works

A lot of stuff about chi out there are things mechanics told people not to do and rules to follow

 

If you feel like it, read the learning thread in my signature

http://thetaobums.co...-time-to-learn/

Maybe I should continue it hmm...

 

Chi flows well through metals.

[Thunder_Gooch]

I've seen all those videos More pie thanks. And if you could tell me more about what your talking about Sinfest I'd appreciate it. Thanks Chi-Dragon.

 

So..at this point there is little to no proof that qi qong is nothing but a advanced health regiment? That explains why More Pie Guy is obsessed with powers.

 

 

 

Oh and Seeker, "I" does not exist ;]

You think that's air you're breathing?

 

 

Did you miss the studies I posted?

 

I post things documenting abilities, because studies that document healing abilities aren't as convincing.

Edited August 15, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Protector]

Chi flows well through metals.

 

Touch some right after meditating, the buzz wont go away for a while

[Thunder_Gooch]

Touch some right after meditating, the buzz wont go away for a while

 

I sit with a bare metal grounded wire touching my perineum during meditation, so touching something grounded after meditation has no effect.

 

It is my understanding you can only hold as much yang energy as you have yin, and the yang chi gathered in meditation will not accumulate in your body if there isn't an equal amount of yin to compensate, and the yang will just flow right back out at the first chance.

[GeoBall]

Did you miss the studies I posted?

 

I post things documenting abilities, because studies that document healing abilities aren't as convincing.

 

Well I saw the videos you posted. John Chang's videos don't cut it for me. I've seen magicians do similar things which I cannot explain. But if there is some data on John Chang, like a measurable force. Recorded by at least a half credible person. I would be interested. Also what texts have you read on Mo pai, and if you have learned another style of Nei Kung or Mo pai from a person in person I'd like to hear about it.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Well I saw the videos you posted. John Chang's videos don't cut it for me. I've seen magicians do similar things which I cannot explain. But if there is some data on John Chang, like a measurable force. Recorded by at least a half credible person. I would be interested. Also what texts have you read on Mo pai, and if you have learned another style of Nei Kung or Mo pai from a person in person I'd like to hear about it.

 

 

 

Watch this video of tummo master wim hof, and read the article.

 

 

http://www.scienceda...10422090203.htm

 

Research On 'Iceman' Wim Hof Suggests It May Be Possible to Influence Autonomic Nervous System and Immune Response

 

 

ScienceDaily (Apr. 22, 2011) — At the Radboud University Nijmegen Medical Centre, professor of experimental intensive care medicine Dr. Peter Pickkers and his team have performed research on "Iceman" Wim Hof. Hof claims that he can influence his autonomic nervous system and immune response through concentration and meditation. The results obtained are remarkable, however, the investigators emphasize that so far, these results have only been obtained in a single individual. Therefore, they can not serve as scientific evidence for the hypothesis that the autonomic nervous system and the immune response can be influenced through concentration and meditation techniques. Further research with larger groups is warranted.

 

Research on the immune response

 

A well-functioning immune system protects us against viruses and bacteria. However, excessive activation of the immune system can cause tissue and organ damage. The immune system is, in part, controlled by the autonomic nervous system, a system which cannot be deliberately influenced. Professor Peter Pickkers and PhD candidate Matthijs Kox investigate the effects of the autonomic nervous system on the immune response.

 

Pickkers said: "We administer endotoxin, a dead cell-wall component of bacteria, to healthy volunteers. The immune system reacts as if real live bacteria have entered the body and mounts an immune response characterized by the production of inflammatory mediators and flu-like symptoms like fever, chills and headache. These experiments are completely safe and have been performed on more than 240 subjects in our centre."

 

Results obtained in the Iceman

 

Wim Hof is well known for his remarkable activities in extremely low temperatures. Hof claims that he can influence his autonomic nervous system and thereby suppress his immune response through concentration and meditation.

 

To investigate this, Hof was administered endotoxin while practising his concentration and meditation technique. During this experiment, various measurements were performed, including brain activity, autonomic nervous system activity and inflammatory mediators in the blood.

 

Pickkers said: "After endotoxin administration, the increase of the stress hormone cortisol in Hof was much more pronounced compared to other healthy volunteers. We know that this hormone is released in response to increased autonomic nervous system activity and that it suppresses the immune response. In accordance, the levels of inflammatory mediators in Hof's blood were much lower. On average, Hof's immune response was decreased by 50 percent compared to other healthy volunteers. In addition, hardly any flu-like symptoms were observed. These results are definitely remarkable. However, so far, they have only been obtained in a single individual and therefore cannot serve as scientific evidence for the hypothesis that the autonomic nervous system and the immune response can be influenced through concentration and meditation techniques. Further research is warranted in which a group of volunteers that have acquired Hof's concentration and meditation technique is compared to a group that does not master this technique."

Edited August 16, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

http://news.harvard....8/09-tummo.html

 

 

During visits to remote monasteries in the 1980s, Benson and his team studied monks living in the Himalayan Mountains who could, by g Tum-mo meditation, raise the temperatures of their fingers and toes by as much as 17 degrees. It has yet to be determined how the monks are able to generate such heat.

 

The researchers also made measurements on practitioners of other forms of advanced meditation in Sikkim, India. They were astonished to find that these monks could lower their metabolism by 64 percent.

 

To put that decrease in perspective, metabolism, or oxygen consumption, drops only 10-15 percent in sleep and about 17 percent during simple meditation.

 

In 1985, the meditation team made a video of monks drying cold, wet sheets with body heat. They also documented monks spending a winter night on a rocky ledge 15,000 feet high in the Himalayas. The sleep-out took place in February on the night of the winter full moon when temperatures reached zero degrees F. Wearing only woolen or cotton shawls, the monks promptly fell asleep on the rocky ledge, They did not huddle together and the video shows no evidence of shivering. They slept until dawn then walked back to their monastery.