et-thoughts Posted August 15, 2012 I do place my expectations on others... ...of course realizing that they and what happens may just surprise me! of course in a good way (though there are other ways)! I used to have a phrase: Expect the best and be prepared for the rest... BTW How did you manage to become the proprietor of your world ... now which be the world that you claim to be under your possession... and be perfect? This somewhat side road seeks to expose a notion that often keeps dialogues from focusing on 'what be' the natural way... what be desirable... what be true... Asking me to remember a time when there was no life on this planet would shift the dialogue from the agreed state of a human animal position to a different one. Do you want to go there? Do we actually know that before there were people there were no words? BTW When we look closely we may realize that we assign the value and meaning to words... words are just words ... the same could be said of physical matter... what constitutes you being you? the physical body you inhabit? the emotional array you display? the conceptual ideas you sustain? the relationships you hold? " distinctly unique while identical"... alludes to the notion that separate minds can know the same thing by each holding their own identical copy. Evidently what each holds is distinctly unique ... realizing that the two singular instances can actually be identical, took me quite a while to accept... and even now i find that depending on what I choose to believe its either this or that... Fortunately I can expand and contract at will what I hold to believe on this matter without resulting in a complete alteration invalidation of my original position... there is a change in my original position though somewhat tangential ... to begin with I used to hold that ' identical copy' where impossible and latter changed that position to ' identical copy' are possible... To me your statement " that was BS" seems like a defensive mechanism to get rid of the notion instead of dealing with it... BTW how we apply our subjective thinking to that hot stove-top DOES determine whether it be quite cool or quite hot... of course how we determine what be cool and hot hardly changes the temperature of the stove-top... I do wonder if "what be" is dualistic in nature... acting is acting (even if one the act involves nothing). I do wonder if a tree is a tree if nobody distinguishes it as such. Sure the arrangement of matter is still there but its the distinction of a tree that makes it into a tree... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 15, 2012 When we are talking about "duality", it has to be one is the complement of the other. In this case, ugly is the complement of beautiful. However, a rose does not have a complement. Thus a rose can be thinking in the singularity but not a dualistic singularity. By the definition of duality, "what is" and "what isn't" are not necessary a duality. It is a duality, only, if the "what is" is the complement of "what isn't", then it would be considered to be a valid duality. ChiDragon stemming from what you said... the complement of men is woman and child and ... dog the complement of beautiful is smart, funny, caring etc... To me duality stems from the bad seeking recognition as equal to good or what isn't good seeking to negate what is good. I believe its possible to know good by knowing good When one knows the truth one know what be true even while ignoring what isn't true. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 15, 2012 ChiDragon To me duality stems from the bad seeking recognition as equal to good or what isn't good seeking to negate what is good. I believe its possible to know good by knowing good When one knows the truth one know what be true even while ignoring what isn't true. You are talking outside of the definitions of the Tao Te Ching. Are we not.....??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 15, 2012 IBTW How did you manage to become the proprietor of your world ... You really don't want to hear the story of my life now, do you? Or how I can to be the legal owner of this property according to the laws of man? Or how I was able to create it into my own perfect world? I don't remember what I called BS on. Remind me and we can discuss it if you care to do so. I like the phrase "special and unique". We all are that. Even identical twins are not identical. Words. So you think that maybe words existed before there were anyone to think of them? Lots of luck with that one. Yes, we should remain flexible in our beliefs just in case someone shows us where one of our understandings is wrong or misunderstood. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 15, 2012 (edited) Ah! There it is: Is that something like "separate but equal"? You do know that was BS don't you? Yes, I said that. I was referring to what was here in the US regarding racial segregation. The theme here in the South was that they wanted to keep the races separate but the blacks were being treated equal to how the whites were being treated. Again I say, that was BS. Of course, this has nothing to do with the discussion. Edited August 15, 2012 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 Here's a different angle - The sage knows that he is part of the All. There is no differentiation between the atoms in his arm and the atoms in that rock over there. Perhaps this is the singularity that is his mindset. He knows that by not interfering with the course of things (wu wei, no intent) things will shake out just the way they're supposed to. He thinks with'singularity because he knows he is part of the Singular. There is no duality - no judgment - no good, bad, desirable, undesirable. It's just all One Big Movie and he's sitting on the observation deck watching it. He can choose either to See or to Experience, depending on his mindset. The sage knows that his actions are part of the natural course of things and intervenes as the sage would intervene and does what needs to be done by the sage precisely when its supposed to be done... (which may be to stand like the rock, flow like the water, bend like bamboo, move like the wind, glow like fire etc...) btw the can be judgments, good, desirable, understanding even when there is no duality... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 You are talking outside of the definitions of the Tao Te Ching. Are we not.....??? Who can stand and talk outside the Tao when the Tao envelopes all? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 It would be interesting to read in a different thread the story of your life and how you came to be the legal owner... and created the perfect place... the point I was seeking to make center on the notion of MY stuff, my thought, my land, natural for me... in light of stuff, thoughts land and what be natural... Sometimes the distinction of my stuff and your stuff becomes quite fuzzy ... Yes we are all individuals special and unique our that singularity and uniqueness is what makes us all equal... remember the individual steps of the infinite ladder ... each has its unique and special level and each has infinite levels above it and below it... and thus at any given step its actually the same thing infinite levels above it and below it... Considering the human animal perspective... of this life time I hold that before I was here there where words and after I leave everything points to the fact that there will be words here... Remember I said To transcend the dualistic thinking we need to find a singular point where all are distinctly unique while identical... this can be observed with the singular absolute meaning of words... What was said and what was heard are two separate instances when they are identical though clearly separate if you know one you know the other while distinguishing them apart and together... you responded : "You confused me with that one. Hehehe. Is that something like "separate but equal"? You do know that was BS don't you"? BTW someone can show us where one of our understandings is wrong or misunderstood and we may just reject it rather than change what we believe... because of what we believe... remember that saying about those who need to listen the most are the ones who rarely do listen... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 Ah! There it is: Is that something like "separate but equal"? You do know that was BS don't you? Yes, I said that. I was referring to what was here in the US regarding racial segregation. The theme here in the South was that they wanted to keep the races separate but the blacks were being treated equal to how the whites were being treated. Again I say, that was BS. Of course, this has nothing to do with the discussion. No wonder I didn't get what you meant... now I believe i understand what you said better and why you said it... What I meant was quite different from "separate but equal" and Indeed I do know that that "separate but equal" was BS... On that note the notion that everyone's opinion is equally valid is actually rather absurd... even the premise that everyone is equal is actually rather absurd... though getting into that may distract us from the topic... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted August 16, 2012 Who can stand and talk outside the Tao when the Tao envelopes all? It is fine as long as we know where we stand; and the participants will be different to stay on a common ground..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 It is fine as long as we know where we stand; and the participants will be different to stay on a common ground..... ChiDragon, I believe we do stand on a common ground seeking to share an enriching adventure together and a bit more... I seek to be courteous and respectful and sometimes a bit playful ... always seeking what be better for each and all. What I present is what I think and see and I do seek to explain how I see things... and understand how other see things in hopes of jointly discovering the better things... be them from you, others, me or the process. I do hope we stand on a common ground... and that if/when the ground vanishes from beneath we manage to remain standing and dialoguing realizing that the ground upon which we stood did not support us . Kind of like when swimming in the ocean ... when the ground below is 3 meters and suddenly drops off by 3000 meters it matters little we keep on swimming the same... Of course some passes requiring that one walk on water and swim in air... some gateways will only allow certain travelers to traverse them... hopefully that too will be of little relevance... as we share the adventure... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 16, 2012 On that note the notion that everyone's opinion is equally valid is actually rather absurd... even the premise that everyone is equal is actually rather absurd... though getting into that may distract us from the topic... Hehehe. Yes, it would be distracting, especially when it is already so difficult for us to form understanding regarding this topic. Actually, your response to Manitou was pretty darned good, IMO, and it is basically the understanding I hold to. It's not about singularity or duality but living in both at the same time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 Hehehe. Yes, it would be distracting, especially when it is already so difficult for us to form understanding regarding this topic. Actually, your response to Manitou was pretty darned good, IMO, and it is basically the understanding I hold to. It's not about singularity or duality but living in both at the same time. It's about living ... Shakespeare's 'to be or not to be' ahin't the question it be how to be... some cultivate the dark, voids, death, annihilation - lies some cultivate the light, being, life, propagation - truth of course everyone claims to tell the truth... the words "I tell the truth" are true or false depending on who utters them! the key is to followthrough and congruently doing what is claimed... from the point of making the declaration forward ...so its irrelevant whether it be true or false that "I tell the truth" when I make the statement what is relevant is that from that point on I only tell the truth... and make it be true.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 16, 2012 Hi ET, I have never claimed to be telling "the" truth. I do claim to tell "my" truth most of the time. (Other times I am just joking around.) I have many times on this forum stated that I speak my opinions and understandings. These may or may not be anyone else's opinions and understandings. I have also elsewhere stated that I believe the there are no "ultimate truths". (Yes, I have said that 'change' is the only 'thing' that does not change.) I live in the light. I hold to life and I experience as much of it as I possibly can (within reason, of course). And yes, I propagate my plants but that is all! Yes, I claim to have my truths. Just the way I am. And I do walk my talk. Sometimes I f*** up. Big deal. But my path is my path. If our paths happen to merge we might walk together for a while. But then, our paths might never merge or cross. Life is that way, you know. Do we make our own truths? Of course we do. And we do everything in our power to keep our truths. Just the way we animals are. But I repeat something I have said before: We should periodically test our truths just to see if they are truths or if they are nothing but illusions and/or delusions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 Marblehead, Each propagates quite a bit of stuff :-) ... the notions of telling 'my' truth and 'the' truth as you sort of mentioned requires that We periodically corroborate that our truths correspond to the truths ( or recognize if our truths are nothing but illusions and/or delusions). From what I understand this thread objective seek to jointly explore and determine "what be": be it a singularity be it a duality ... AND the natural manner of being. "Are there or are there no "ultimate truths"? The statement "there be an ultimate truth" would be true even if there was just one ultimate truth that being that there be one ultimate truth... the absolute statement "there are no ultimate truths" would be paradoxically self contradictory and thus would be false! I do know that life is that way... "If our paths happen to merge (or more appropriately when they happen to merge) we might walk together for a while." Sure our path might never merge or cross though considering eternity we are bound to merge or cross sooner or later and eventually decide if to walk together for a while dialoguing or silently... :-) We may even wonder and ponder over the fact of who's path it be... your path my path or just a path we happen to both be on at that singular moment in time and space... For me today is quite a significant day... as I mention earlier : its irrelevant whether the statement (say "I tell the truth") be true or false, what is relevant is to make it be true from this point on ... in a way the difference between a deception and a vision... resides in that one accepts what be while still claiming what will be but isn't vs rejecting what be to maintain the deception of what isn't going to be... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 16, 2012 For me today is quite a significant day... as I mention earlier : its irrelevant whether the statement (say "I tell the truth") be true or false, what is relevant is to make it be true from this point on ... in a way the difference between a deception and a vision... resides in that one accepts what be while still claiming what will be but isn't vs rejecting what be to maintain the deception of what isn't going to be... Yeah. I have this ideal that I should make as few promises as possible but when I do make a promise I must do everything in my power to follow through on that promise. I also have this demand of myself that I take full responsibility for all my thoughts and actions/inactions. How else could I be considered trustworthy? And yes, I see what you are pointing at in the above paragraph. Just be kind to yourself and don't put more demands on yourself than you can handle with grace. Until we get beyond the concepts of success or failure, failure is a real mother, and it is very disappointing. As to the singularity/duality question I have done the best I could to express my understanding. My understanding works for me. Can't say it would work well for anyone else. I still think that your "What be?" question must be answered by each individual because there is no doubt in my mind that "What be?" is going to vary between individuals. I do know that my fish need to stay in the water and that they need be fed periodically, and it so happens that now is the time for me to feed them so I will be back on-line after they are fed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 16, 2012 I still think that your "What be?" question must be answered by each individual because there is no doubt in my mind that "What be?" is going to vary between individuals. I do know that my fish need to stay in the water and that they need be fed periodically, and it so happens that now is the time for me to feed them so I will be back on-line after they are fed. You are right "'What be?' question must be answered by each individual..." because ... individuals wouldn't believe the answer from anyone else :-)! "What be" be what be and what varies is what individuals perceive to be... I was/am fortunate to have dyslexia which provides all sort of opportunities... and sort of has forces me to wonder and ponder over the validity of what I perceive and develop agile coping skill to get it right (and correct it when I get it wrong)... Most people I know have a real hard time accepting that they didn't get it right... (and got it wrong)... Its a real hard blow to their egos... which they prefer to avoid it at all possible... thus they embrace a delusional fantasy... To some a minuscule change tumbles their house of cards (their held beliefs can't stand it)... Say something like the notion of the earth not being the center of the universe ... because it revolves around the sun... Dialoguing about the singularity/duality question and the understanding each has is a means for each to clarify what they hold and maybe discover something new ... personally I believe we can know 'what be' by knowing 'what be' that is one can know 'x' by knowing 'x'! Knowing 'y' hardly implies that one knows 'x' ... it implies that one knows 'y' ... you probably know the story about... -giving someone a fish to eat vs teaching someone how to catch a fish... though do you know the rest of the story... - it involves a bit more... including caring for the fish by abundantly cultivating them to always have fish to eat... This world now is entering a stage where each has to tend and cultivate the land, air, water, fire and more... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 17, 2012 you probably know the story about... -giving someone a fish to eat vs teaching someone how to catch a fish... though do you know the rest of the story... - it involves a bit more... including caring for the fish by abundantly cultivating them to always have fish to eat... This world now is entering a stage where each has to tend and cultivate the land, air, water, fire and more... Okay. Deja vu. Just today while listening to some modern blues the guy mentioned about teaching the people how to fish. But then he asks, what are you going to do when the river dries up and all the fish die? We need to be able to do more than just catch fish. Fears are a horrible thing. Especially the fear of being wrong. Fortunately I have had much experience at being wrong so it doesn't even bother me any more. And I agree, there is so much that we can know. We can also know too much and it leaves us with an empty life. And then there are things we just can't know. Should we still question? Sure, I think so. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 17, 2012 ..., there is so much that we can know. We can also know too much and it leaves us with an empty life. And then there are things we just can't know. Should we still question? Sure, I think so. Knowing it all needn't lead us to an empty life... it could lead us to a fulfilling life... what actually happens is a bit .... convoluted ... wo wei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 17, 2012 I agree. Darn! Where do we go from here? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 17, 2012 (edited) Where do we go from here? wherever we go ... there you go , there I go... and we may even end up somewhere together! I had composed quite a response and had almost finished it when inadvertedly changed this webpage and just lost it . Now I just do not feel like recreating the whole thing here... I will say this: there is only one path with infinite possibilities... in a more simplified way, the way has two directions though there is only one way to the mountain top... The question you pose is asked at each stage and instant... when alone when with other at home at a restaurant in agreements and in disagreements and when playing and resting... and a bit more Edited August 17, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 17, 2012 I will say this: there is only one path with infinite possibilities... in a more simplified way, the way has two directions though there is only one way to the mountain top... You said that pretty well. The same idea has been presented many different ways but this is one of the better, IMO. (I had to read it twice to be comfortable with it though.) Hehehe. "... the way has two directions ..." Got stuck with that duality thing there, didn't you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 18, 2012 (edited) You said that pretty well. The same idea has been presented many different ways but this is one of the better, IMO. (I had to read it twice to be comfortable with it though.) Hehehe. "... the way has two directions ..." Got stuck with that duality thing there, didn't you? The duality thing there was sort of included as a courtesy for those who think that 'what is not the way to go' be 'the way to go'... further into the path each realizes the truth... some will accept it and do what needs doing and some will reject the truth and embrace a delusion... there is only one path with infinite possibilities... in a more simplified way, the way actually has just one direction, there is only one way to the mountain top... its the one one follows...in the end everyone reaches the mountain top some know and realize it and some don't... some take almost forever to get there and some get there in a flash, a blink of an eye, a single thought and wham shabam they are there... Imagine if I had stated "there is only one path with infinite possibilities... in a more simplified way, the way has one direction to the mountain top... those who know it needn't be told and those who ignore it don't believe when told... One can know with certainty the way to go even while uncertain as to who tells the truth and who lies... In a way the lesson is to choose right independent of knowing or not knowing... To do independent of doing or not doing ... if one embraces the truth, one eventually gets there, to know what be right one choose to be bound to truth... those who choose to be bound to the delusion of freedom remain imprisoned in the delusion... remember that saying - the truth sets you free... well when one chooses to bind oneself to the truth one discover that one can do just about anything worth doing... and though forced to choose can is free to choose ... this is related to zero-limits and infinite limits... Edited August 18, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 18, 2012 And then there are those who believe that there is no mountain - no place to go - just be. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 18, 2012 And then there are those who believe that there is no mountain - no place to go - just be. yeup - there are those who believe that there is no mountain even when the mountain be everywhere one be... 'touche' -- used as an acknowledgment during a dialogue of a good or clever point made to call attention to the point made Heck some here believe in the notion of 'not being' as a way of being ... rather than just being... In a way thats why I came here to understand and help those here to understand. duality keeps many from realizing the singular experience of being... Please remind me to share the story of the mountain and stone cutter... latter... maybe you even already know it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
