a dualistic singularity and the natural manner(Wu Wei)...

[Marblehead]

Please remind me to share the story of the mountain and stone cutter... latter... maybe you even already know it...

I think I know the story but you can tell it again. I tell my stories over and over again.

 

And yes, the singularity is just as real as duality is. Or, if you will, the Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery.

[et-thoughts]

I think I know the story but you can tell it again. I tell my stories over and over again.

 

And yes, the singularity is just as real as duality is. Or, if you will, the Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery.

 

Lets me try to understand what you are stating--- another way to put what you said be that 'what is' be just as real as 'what isn't'; the Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery; the reality is just as real as the illusion... If neither existed sure both would be the same and when both exists the reality and the illusion both be real possibilities though only what be real be both a possibility and a reality ... its like the absolutist and the relativist... which be freer ?

 

the the reality is a manifested possiblity... where as the mystery is a possibility that may or may not be...

 

The story I referred is somewhat circular in nature... and deals with seeking to be more, only to realize that the quest was a fools errand ... moral be all you can be wherever one be ... rather than desiring to be elsewhere...

[Marblehead]

Lets me try to understand what you are stating--- another way to put what you said be that 'what is' be just as real as 'what isn't'; the Manifest is just as real as is the Mystery; the reality is just as real as the illusion... If neither existed sure both would be the same and when both exists the reality and the illusion both be real possibilities though only what be real be both a possibility and a reality ... its like the absolutist and the relativist... which be freer ?

 

the the reality is a manifested possiblity... where as the mystery is a possibility that may or may not be...

Yes, I think you understand what I said. You used your words. That's good.

 

But a note to remember here: Although the illusion may be, to me, the holder of said illusion, absolutely true, it is only my illusion. (Someone else may think I am crazy.)

 

And yes, the Mystery holds within it every concievable possibility. Which of those possibilities will come to be is the mystery.

 

No, I've not heard your mountain story. Tell me a story!

[et-thoughts]

Yes, I think you understand what I said. You used your words. That's good.

 

But a note to remember here: Although the illusion may be, to me, the holder of said illusion, absolutely true, it is only my illusion. (Someone else may think I am crazy.)

 

And yes, the Mystery holds within it every concievable possibility. Which of those possibilities will come to be is the mystery.

 

No, I've not heard your mountain story. Tell me a story!

 

If the reality of the matter was that it was just an individuals illusion without repercussions elsewhere

then sure its their illusion...

though when their illusion has real repercussions elsewhere

then its a whole different matter

 

I seek to expose what be the absolute truth and embrace the absolute better possibility... it matters little who happens to be right or wrong, what does matter is realizing the absolute truth and the absolute better possibility... that each may embrace it...

 

'Which of those possibilities will come to be is the mystery'... until one knows what be and then the mystery isn't a mystery any more... BTW you did not answer my question about which is freer an absolutist or a relativist...

 

Yesterday I realized that its only natural that those who are wrong and cultivate what be wrong would tell me that I am wrong when I am right... That should help me remain calm and at peace... while seeking to cultivate what be right ...

 

The story about the mountain and the stonecutter succinctly put...

- the powerful spirit who lived in the mountain observed a stonecutter day after day be a stonecutter

- At first the stonecutter was happy with being a stonecutter

- One day the stonecutter saw something and became sad because the stonecutter wanted be more powerful

- this idea drove a stake through the stonecutter's heart and induced a deep depression

- The stonecutter no longer wanted to be a stonecutter, the stonecutter wanted to be something else

- The powerful spirit who lived in the mountain decided to intervene and grant the stonecutter's desire

- Overnight during the sleep the powerful spirit grants the stonecutter's wish...

 

The story now continues with the stonecutter being a general... the same 7 steps happen again with the new context

The story then continues with the general becoming a the king... the same 7 steps happen again and again

the king turns into the sun... because the sun is more powerful than the king who is more powerful than the general who is more powerful than the stonecutter... the sun wishes to turn into the clouds because the clouds are more powerful than the sun ... then the clouds turn into the wind because the wind moves the clouds...finally the wind wishes to become the mountain because its more powerful than the wind... the powerful spirit says that the mountain is its home and to grant the wish would have to leave the place for good never to return ... the wind insist on becoming the mountain... so that night the spirit turns the wind into the maintain and leaves... the mountain is awaken by the sting of a stonecutter's chisel...

 

I hope you see the somewhat circular nature... how it deals with seeking to be more, only to realize that the quest was a fools errand ... moral be all you can be wherever you be ... rather than desiring to be elsewhere... Of course I left out many many details that I believe you can fill them in...

[Marblehead]

If the reality of the matter was that it was just an individuals illusion without repercussions elsewhere

then sure its their illusion...

though when their illusion has real repercussions elsewhere

then its a whole different matter

 

That is very true.

 

'Which of those possibilities will come to be is the mystery'... until one knows what be and then the mystery isn't a mystery any more... BTW you did not answer my question about which is freer an absolutist or a relativist...

 

Sorry 'bout that. I am a realist so IMO the relativist would be freer and have more choices.

 

Yesterday I realized that its only natural that those who are wrong and cultivate what be wrong would tell me that I am wrong when I am right... That should help me remain calm and at peace... while seeking to cultivate what be right ...

 

That is the problem with right and wrong. These are relatives, not absolutes.

 

The story about the mountain and the stonecutter succinctly put...

- the powerful spirit who lived in the mountain observed a stonecutter day after day be a stonecutter

- At first the stonecutter was happy with being a stonecutter

- One day the stonecutter saw something and became sad because the stonecutter wanted be more powerful

- this idea drove a stake through the stonecutter's heart and induced a deep depression

- The stonecutter no longer wanted to be a stonecutter, the stonecutter wanted to be something else

- The powerful spirit who lived in the mountain decided to intervene and grant the stonecutter's desire

- Overnight during the sleep the powerful spirit grants the stonecutter's wish...

 

The story now continues with the stonecutter being a general... the same 7 steps happen again with the new context

The story then continues with the general becoming a the king... the same 7 steps happen again and again

the king turns into the sun... because the sun is more powerful than the king who is more powerful than the general who is more powerful than the stonecutter... the sun wishes to turn into the clouds because the clouds are more powerful than the sun ... then the clouds turn into the wind because the wind moves the clouds...finally the wind wishes to become the mountain because its more powerful than the wind... the powerful spirit says that the mountain is its home and to grant the wish would have to leave the place for good never to return ... the wind insist on becoming the mountain... so that night the spirit turns the wind into the maintain and leaves... the mountain is awaken by the sting of a stonecutter's chisel...

 

I hope you see the somewhat circular nature... how it deals with seeking to be more, only to realize that the quest was a fools errand ... moral be all you can be wherever you be ... rather than desiring to be elsewhere... Of course I left out many many details that I believe you can fill them in...

 

That one was way back in my mind. Chuang Tzu has an unfinished story on that same theme.

 

The Army used to have the slogan "Be all that you can be."

[et-thoughts]

As counter intuitive as it is... the absolutist turns out to have more freedom... than the relativist... look at it this way the absolutist can always choose and become both an absolutist and a relativist at the same time by choosing that the absolute truth be the relative truth... where as the relativist can only become both when 'it just happens that' what they chosen as the relative truth just happens to be the absolute truth... evidently ALWAYS being able to be both is better (provides more freedom) than just being able to be both on that single case that is just happens to be...

 

Note how the duality of being relativist-or-absolutist just vanishes and ceases to be relevant when one be both at the same time... The problem with right and wrong stems from what be wrong... if it was all right then evidently there would not be a problem ... Besides have you noticed how relativists resort to absolutes all of the time... ok not all of the time but quite frequently... "Absolutely --- THESE ARE RELATIVES, NOT ABSOLUTES"... for clarity sake I am just providing a personal example without getting personal about it... I do hope you see.

 

I to am a realist... and find hilarious and absurd the self-contradictory ways of the relativists especially when around an absolutist... when the relativists denies the absolutists ways they deny being a relativist by rejecting a particular relative position and when the relativists accepts the absolutists ways they 'deny'* being a relativist. Again note how the duality of denial-acceptance becomes irrelevant ... whatever is done the result is the same... it would be like regardless of the path followed one reaches the same destination...

 

You are right the army does use the slogan "Be all that you can be"... if there is any consolation both the noble and the charlatan use the slogan "I tell the truth"... Now some individuals do need the discipline and good practices of the army...

[Marblehead]

As counter intuitive as it is...

 

My understanding of what you are saying here is lacking because we have not defined what a "relativist" and an "absolutist" are.

 

Short definition:

 

Absolutist = My way or no way.

 

Relativist = Whatever works.

 

if there is any consolation both the noble and the charlatan use the slogan "I tell the truth"...

 

If anyone takes the time to tell me what they are about to say is the truth I assume that they often tell lies and what is about to follow is a lie. Some people will lie every chance they get.

 

[et-thoughts]

Hehehe hahahah ROTFLOL... considering those definitions it turns out that the absolutists isn't an absolutist and a relativist is who knows what... thanks for making me laugh in a good way... Indeed we have not defined what a "relativist" and an "absolutist" are... Personally I thought that it was rather evident ... and realizing a different possibility made me ROTFLOL...

 

My understanding is that :

The Absolutist = uses/hold/recognizes absolute truths-ideas-notions-beliefs -

The Relativist = uses/hold/recognizes relative truths-ideas-notions-beliefs -

 

For the absolutists there is a truth

for the relativists theres isn't a truth

 

(hey I just got an important insight a new understanding that I find quite useful and enriches what I hold... thanks for your participation and contributions).

 

To be rather practical about this lets look at examples of statements and categorize them as absolute or relative...

- Examples of absolute statements

There is one truth

There isn't one truth

The truth is relative

The truth isn't relative

THE right way or no way

Short definition

I am a realist

Reality

(I just realized that there are some singular statements that may be better to categorize differently like 'What be' and maybe short definition)

 

- Examples of relative statements

- My understanding of what you are saying here is...

- your understanding is

- My way or no way.

- That depends on what one believe holds

- whatever works

- illusion

 

I see that your response following the statement I made goes of into a different direction than what I intended:

- if there is any consolation both the noble and the charlatan use the slogan "I tell the truth"...

 

sought to expose the fact that the same statement can be true if the noble uses it and can be false if the charlatan uses it... I was indirectly pointing out that the slogan "be all you can be" could be this or that depending on who used it. sometimes its impossible to know if the statement is true or false this or that... and that its a bit irrelevant what it happened to be so long as what follows makes it be congruent with the statement... Another example that I could had used is: "May you reap abundantly what they sow"... It could be a blessing or a curse! Here it depends on the recipient...

 

You certainly are correct that "If anyone takes the time to tell me what they are about to say is the truth" It would tend to flag the statement and make some wonder about the veracity of that and other statements... Sure some people will lie every chance they get... just as some people will tell the truth every chance they get... telling their stories! The stories each tells, tell quite a bit about the storyteller... Rather than just assume something to be, I wonder and ponder considering it being the case and it being something else... looking for the singular path that in every case I choose to embrace...be it a dream be it for real always choose the better way to be... be it right be it wrong always validate what it be... Though nowadays I am tending to always ensure what be right be right... and cultivating what be right...

[Marblehead]

Well, what to respond to?

 

Truths can be found only in the objective realm, I think. Once we engage the subjective mind we develop infinate possibilities of what "could be". Only in the objective do we have "what is".

 

Yes, I think that there are many truths in the subjective realm as well but they will never be universal truths. Someone will always disagree.

 

But even the objective can be questioned. The gate in the fence around my property; is it to keep other people out or is it to keep me in?

 

The gate exists. I rarely close it. I can escape any time I wish to do so.

 

So yes, in the objective realm we can have singularity. But in the subjective realm we will always have duality and we must live in this realm most of the time.

 

I will here compare your singularity/duality with Taoist Wu/Yo. Rene once, a long time ago, told me that she tries to keep one foot firmly in Wu and the other firmly in Yo. I think that this is likely best for most people becuase it allows for experiencing the singularity while still being able to do what needs be done in the dualistic reality.

[et-thoughts]

FWIIW in an interchange much like this one I realized that the absolute meaning of a word is relative to its use then it becomes fixed and a universal truth... of course each time we use a word we determine its singular meaning (usually it is in line with previous definitions though it may or may not be the case). The notion that what we do now is the beginning of an eternal event makes sense with other stuff I hold. When someone writes a word it is used when somebody read it, it is used... two singular instances of using the word... now if the reader determines that the word means what the writer determined that word meant the reader gets what the writer sought to share... otherwise the reader just gets the meaning that the reader thinks to be...

 

The gate in the fence... is it there to invite people in or to show them the way out? well I suppose that depends on where the people be, what side of the fence they be at... Passing the doorway will free those bound and bound those free... those bound to understanding will be freed into the delusion of being free... while those free of understanding (under the delusion of being free) will be bound to the understanding that allows them to be bound to understanding... while somewhat free ... to accept the truth or reject it...

 

Can one escape any time one wishes to do so? especially when one would never wish to do so... this is analogous to the idea that one can be saved any time one wishes ... say by repenting and seeking forgiveness ... with the slight inconvenience of always postponing doing it... besides the gate hardly leads anyone to escape... its like dreaming of waking up but just moving from one dream to a different one... In many reals we will have singularities in some there will be dualities... as for this real we be in... I say we make it a wonderful place to be in and learn many wonderful lessons... and transcend the duality

 

Indeed singularity/duality maps to Taoist Wu/Yo and wei would be action... I believe reality needs to shift from separate dualistic conception into an integrated singularity... The world faces global situations that require everyones cooperation... the contamination and radiation in one place affects and effects everything... it is time to realize that its not the in-group vs out group we are all one group ... and to sacrifice one is the sacrifice all and the benefit of one benefit it all...

[rene]

et-thoughts, hello

 

... When someone writes a word it is used when somebody read it, it is used... two singular instances of using the word... now if the reader determines that the word means what the writer determined that word meant the reader gets what the writer sought to share... otherwise the reader just gets the meaning that the reader thinks to be...

 

Yes, and another possibility is that when the underlying is already known, that meaning comes through the word(s), regardless of the word(s) chosen to convey.

 

... as for this real we be in... I say we make it a wonderful place to be in and learn many wonderful lessons... and transcend the duality ... Indeed singularity/duality maps to Taoist Wu/Yo and wei would be action... I believe reality needs to shift from separate dualistic conception into an integrated singularity... The world faces global situations that require everyones cooperation... the contamination and radiation in one place affects and effects everything... it is time to realize that its not the in-group vs out group we are all one group ... and to sacrifice one is the sacrifice all and the benefit of one benefit it all...

 

Although your ideas and intentions are good, as long as the thought is to "transcend the duality" rather than to incorporate "separate dualistic conception" into one's be-ing, what you wish for could never occur. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and if by "integrated singularity" you mean the integration of the "dual" and the "non-dual" into the unboundaried and simultaneous occurance of both, then we might be on the same page. (-:

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

And after reading that I wondered what page we were on but then immediately realized that it doesn't matter.

 

Yes, the integration of the duality and the singularity. As Rene just pointed out (in a different thread), not 'either/or'.

 

Ah!, to escape our illusions and delusions. I think that might not be so good for some folks because their illusions and delusions are all they truely have.

 

But to try to save humanity from itself, I think would be a fruitless effort. The animal is what it is.

[et-thoughts]

uote

 

... When someone writes a word it is used when somebody read it, it is used... two singular instances of using the word... now if the reader determines that the word means what the writer determined that word meant the reader gets what the writer sought to share... otherwise the reader just gets the meaning that the reader thinks to be...

 

Yes, and another possibility is that when the underlying is already known, that meaning comes through the word(s), regardless of the word(s) chosen to convey.

Quote

 

... as for this real we be in... I say we make it a wonderful place to be in and learn many wonderful lessons... and transcend the duality ... Indeed singularity/duality maps to Taoist Wu/Yo and wei would be action... I believe reality needs to shift from separate dualistic conception into an integrated singularity... The world faces global situations that require everyones cooperation... the contamination and radiation in one place affects and effects everything... it is time to realize that its not the in-group vs out group we are all one group ... and to sacrifice one is the sacrifice all and the benefit of one benefit it all...

 

Although your ideas and intentions are good, as long as the thought is to "transcend the duality" rather than toincorporate "separate dualistic conception" into one's be-ing, what you wish for could never occur. I've enjoyed reading the discussion and if by "integrated singularity" you mean the integration of the "dual" and the "non-dual" into the unboundaried and simultaneous occurance of both, then we might be on the same page. (-:

 

warm regards

 

Glad you enjoyed reading these interchanges... I am glad you choose to participate...

indeed the"... meaning comes through the word(s), regardless of the word(s) chosen to convey..."...

both when the underlying is already known and when the underlying is unknown... IF one seeks to know...

 

though If one seeks not to know... well its close to impossible for the meanings to get through... still the impossible becomes possible with the right friends around...

 

I am wondering how best to share something regarding the notions of incorporate 'it' into one's be-ing... I suppose that a way would be through understanding the triunity meaning in communication. Well maybe a better way would be to use the notion of transcending limits ... zero-limits and infinite-limits point to the eternal while still using limiting concepts... when one has zero limits or infinite limits one in essence can do anything...

 

I had written what follow for elaborating on the triunity meaning I leave it here ... it is done and may well probe useful...

( In my previous post I mentioned that "the absolute meaning of a word is relative to its use" and what you quoted ".. When someone writes a word it is used when somebody read it, it is used... two singular instances of using the word... now if the reader determines that the word means what the writer determined that word meant the reader gets what the writer sought to share..." Succinctly put in communication there are three meaning... the intended one, the perceived one and the shared one... sometimes when communication does take place the three are one and the same... and if one hold one one holds them all... sometimes when communication does NOT take place they are different... and depending on whats important one of them takes precedence... sometimes the important thing is what was intended... sometimes the important thing is what was perceived... and sometimes the important thing is what be shared... )

 

by "integrated singularity" I mean a point where 'what be' be 'what be'... those who know the truth can discern what is and what isn't but need not to do it... BTW the "dual" and the "non-dual" both remain within the dual just as the unboundaried talks about boundaries... what is, is ... what isn't, well it isn't ... the simultaneous occurance of both, is only possible when what isn't seeks to be what it isn't that is when it seeks to be what is (and/or seeks to make what is, not be what it is)

 

We might be on the same page.... and not know it (-:

[et-thoughts]

Ah!, to escape our illusions and delusions. I think that might not be so good for some folks because their illusions and delusions are all they truely have.

 

But to try to save humanity from itself, I think would be a fruitless effort. The animal is what it is.

 

Why try to do it when its just easier to just get it done and move on to better things to do...

You are right... seeking to escape may be a fools quest that keep us bound without doing what need be done...

If some folks only have their illusions and delusions lets help them change the nightmare into a divine dream and then help them bring about the dream into a divine reality... with the help and guidance of the divine...

 

Humanity is part animal part spirit part mind and a bit more... and just need the right dance and music to play and learn

[Marblehead]

Turn the page.

 

What is, is. What isn't, isn't, at least at this moment. It may become what is, in the next moment.

 

I love the potential of the Mystery. One thing I learned the hard way thought is to not place our expectations on what might be. Far better to stick with what is.

[Marblehead]

Turn the page.

 

Edit

 

Just making sure we turned the page.

 

(Actually I messed up and double posted but don't tell anyone.)

 

Edited August 20, 2012 by Marblehead

[et-thoughts]

Turn the page.

 

What is, is. What isn't, isn't, at least at this moment. It may become what is, in the next moment.

 

I love the potential of the Mystery. One thing I learned the hard way thought is to not place our expectations on what might be. Far better to stick with what is.

 

Heck why place expectation on what is being what is, when we know that in the next moment everything could change...

One thing I learned on the way is to ask the unchanging all-knowing Tao to ensure the way and that I get and do what needs doing. Far better to stick with what can ensure I manage to do what is impossible for me to do (because it can do anything even make what is impossible for me to do be possible for me to do). Besides 'surprises' are much more fun and enjoyable when one know it will be wonderful, whatever it happens to be... soon enough each discovers what the surprise be... and then it keeps getting better and better with infinite more divine surprised... when lucky the shitsu dog sleeps it make a sound 'whop whop whop' its hilarious ...

[Marblehead]

Heck why place expectation on what is being what is, when we know that in the next moment everything could change...

 

Well, like I said, I had to learn that the hard way.

 

One thing I learned on the way is to ask the unchanging all-knowing Tao to ensure the way and that I get and do what needs doing. Far better to stick with what can ensure I manage to do what is impossible for me to do (because it can do anything even make what is impossible for me to do be possible for me to do). Besides 'surprises' are much more fun and enjoyable when one know it will be wonderful, whatever it happens to be... soon enough each discovers what the surprise be... and then it keeps getting better and better with infinite more divine surprised... when lucky the shitsu dog sleeps it make a sound 'whop whop whop' its hilarious ...

 

I am an opimist but not that much of one. And I agree that having a positive attitude will more often than not bring about positive effects.

 

[et-thoughts]

"Well, like I said, I had to learn that the hard way".

 

Indeed many do choose to learn the hard way, instead of learning another way... and some even insists that that be the way to learn it, it be the only way to learn it... until they lear the better ways...

 

I just realized that I thought you said something when you didn't say it... I somehow perceived you implied far better to place ones expectations on what is... and now see that was my perception playing a story... still what I responded is applicable...

 

BTW the notion of the optimists brought to mind the notion of a full glass--- which I would say transcends the half-empty half-full dualistic schema based on a singularity of halfs ... so we have the pessimist, with a half-empty glass, the optimist, with a half-full glass, and then we have the one who always holds a full glass ... I wonder what label to use for this last one...

[rene]

Or...you could give up learning and put an end to your troubles!

 

***

 

What could I show you

that you have not already seen?

What could I tell you

that you have not already heard?

What could you learn

that you do not already understand?

 

There is no need to be kind,

just be yourself.

Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.

As a whole human,

you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,

brings everything.

 

You already know these things.

They are naturally known

because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?

 

***

warm regards

[Marblehead]

... and then we have the one who always holds a full glass ... I wonder what label to use for this last one...

The delusionalist?

[Marblehead]

Or...you could give up learning and put an end to your troubles!

That is a paradox, I think.

 

I think that it is better to be discriminating in what we learn and to question things before we learn them as 'truths'.

[et-thoughts]

Or...you could give up learning and put an end to your troubles!

"Some find learning stuff to be no trouble at all and quite a bit of fun".

The paradox involves only learning good and always managing to do that learn something good...

 

I edited to add the preceding point

***

 

What could I show you

that you have not already seen?

"How about a better way to perceive what I have already seen".

What could I tell you

that you have not already heard?

"How about a better way to interpret what I have already heard".

What could you learn

that you do not already understand?

"How about a better way to know what I have already understood".

There is no need to be kind,

"Indeed, one does not have to be kind, as one chooses to be kind".

just be yourself.

Kindness comes naturally.

 

There is no need to be just.

 

"Indeed, one does not have to be just, when one chooses to be merciful kind forgiving loving patient".

 

As a whole human,

you are already just.

 

Being who you are in your heart,

brings everything.

 

You already know these things.

They are naturally known

because they are natural.

 

What more could I say that would be of any use?

 

"Oh plenty of stories that you know, and maybe one or two that you will come to know".

 

***

warm regards

Edited August 20, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

et-thoughts, on 19 August 2012 - 11:07 PM, said:

 

... and then we have the one who always holds a full glass ... I wonder what label to use for this last one...

The delusionalist?

 

Thats a great encompassing label for the duality involving the pessimist and the optimist!

Maybe the realist be the label for those who always hold a full glass ... for the realists sees the glass with some level of water and sees the rest is filled to the brim with air ...

[Marblehead]

... for the realists sees the glass with some level of water and sees the rest is filled to the brim with air ...

Yep. And the realist can always empty the glass of water and fill it with some bourbon and coke if the opportunity presents itself.

 

That's the beauty of an empty cup or empty room. Filling either is virtually without limits. But then, we wouldn't want to fill it too full because then there would be no room for anything else.

 

When I make a cup of tea I always leave room to add some honey and Southern Comfort.