Taoism and masturbation

[Aaron]

Common sense?

China had a 1 child per couple law.

Celibacy is also a form of Birth Control.

 

Chinese and Indians weren't celibate, they used birth control. There is a big difference. The Chinese people didn't stop having sex just because they could only have one child, nor did they stop masturbating. If celibacy was the cure, why do you think they spent billions upon billions of dollars educating their citizens on methods of birth control, when all they had to say was stop having sex?

 

Aaron

Edited August 19, 2012 by Aaron

[Aetherous]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12659241

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11760788

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12506329 (this may be the same one as the first, just published under a different title)

 

It's published in peer reviewed studies that testosterone drops below baseline until the 2nd day after ejaculation on average. That means on the day of and the day after, you are literally weakened...scientifically, factually proven. After abstinence (especially on the 7th day), testosterone is increased. Meaning you are literally healthier. Proven scientifically and published.

 

Do some real research, don't just spout off bullshit about what "millions of doctors" believe. You don't know.

 

Now you do. They believe that if you masturbate too much you'll be weakened. That if you abstain for a while, you will become healthier. Doctors believe what peer reviewed studies show.

 

Yes, there are studies that show how frequent masturbators have a decreased risk of prostate cancer. That is one positive effect...but decreasing your risk of prostate cancer is a very specific thing. We're talking overall health and energy levels. Consider, if ejaculation drains you of health and energy while preventing prostate cancer...then it's not such a good thing! There are other ways that can probably prevent prostate cancer just as well (Taoist huiyin lift).

 

Anyway, I guess I will just have to learn to accept that you're going to spread disinformation on this forum, Aaron. You think you're doing the right thing, trying to free people from their beliefs that masturbation is bad. I see that it will be too hard to stop you, or continually try to match your arguments...a good lesson for me in letting go and allowing things to be as they are. This forum will never be a perfect place of sharing real knowledge.

[Aetherous]

I have yet to sense anything you've stated, and it's not because I lack sensitivity

 

[Disabled Not Broken]

Chinese and Indians weren't celibate, they used birth control. There is a big difference. The Chinese people didn't stop having sex just because they could only have one child, nor did they stop masturbating.

Aaron

 

We would have to take a census, and knock on their doors, to actually confirm that

 

 

If celibacy was the cure, why do you think they spent billions upon billions of dollars educating their citizens on methods of birth control, when all they had to say was stop having sex?

 

Aaron

 

Celibacy is not a cure, just a single path, to many.

 

Diet Coke is one path, to stop obesity-- but so is abstaining from drinking Regular Coke, in the first place.

 

I know many athletes in the past, abstained... especially Boxers.

 

Now they just take steroids, instead.

 

 

Whether celibacy makes for a good birth control, I would say Yes.

 

But my only true argument-- is that Seminal Retention is proper, for mega Qi Buildup.

 

Chi is Life Force, and be depleted

[Aaron]

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12659241

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/11760788

http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/12506329 (this may be the same one as the first, just published under a different title)

 

It's published in peer reviewed studies that testosterone drops below baseline until the 2nd day after ejaculation on average. That means on the day of and the day after, you are literally weakened...scientifically, factually proven. After abstinence (especially on the 7th day), testosterone is increased. Meaning you are literally healthier. Proven scientifically and published.

 

Do some real research, don't just spout off bullshit about what "millions of doctors" believe. You don't know.

 

Now you do. They believe that if you masturbate too much you'll be weakened. That if you abstain for a while, you will become healthier. Doctors believe what peer reviewed studies show.

 

Yes, there are studies that show how frequent masturbators have a decreased risk of prostate cancer. That is one positive effect...but decreasing your risk of prostate cancer is a very specific thing. We're talking overall health and energy levels. Consider, if ejaculation drains you of health and energy while preventing prostate cancer...then it's not such a good thing! There are other ways that can probably prevent prostate cancer just as well (Taoist huiyin lift).

 

Anyway, I guess I will just have to learn to accept that you're going to spread disinformation on this forum, Aaron. You think you're doing the right thing, trying to free people from their beliefs that masturbation is bad. I see that it will be too hard to stop you, or continually try to match your arguments...a good lesson for me in letting go and allowing things to be as they are. This forum will never be a perfect place of sharing real knowledge.

 

Give me some time and I'll list some sources to counter your "argument"... oh wait, my argument was that abstinence did cause an increase in testosterone... so thanks for proving my point. I guess I wont have to look up evidence if you keep giving it to me.

 

Also I don't remember seeing any studies that prove that normal masturbation causes one to become weakened. If that is so, I pray for the monkeys because they definitely masturbate more than what we would consider "normal"... poor, poor monkeys.

 

Aaron

Edited August 19, 2012 by Aaron

[Aetherous]

Check again...two studies. Of course that's the basis for my facts. I have at least brought something real to the table! In comparison, you haven't brought any real science into the discussion at all, Aaron.

 

You should read those full articles...they are very interesting.

 

Why only two studies...as far as I can tell, this subject is not something that is typically researched and published. Most studies have to do with premature ejaculation...hard to find ones about health and well being.

 

When you counter my argument, please don't give any studies that have to do with prostate health. We all know about that. I'm interested to see if you can come up with a single peer reviewed study that show how masturbation improves health and energy levels.

 

...

 

EDIT: I see you edited your post while I was responding...so the above might not make as much sense, but I'll just leave it as is.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Scotty

[Aaron]

But my only true argument-- is that Seminal Retention is proper, for mega Qi Buildup.

 

Chi is Life Force, and be depleted

 

I have no problem with you saying this, my problem is when people state as a fact that masturbation is unhealthy, sinful, etc. when there is no basis to prove it.

 

Also keep in mind that different sects of Taoism practice different things. There are certain schools that advocate sex. Historically speaking they were the dominant schools until the rise of Buddhism and Confucianism, then abstinence began to gain sway.

 

Aaron

Edited August 19, 2012 by Aaron

[Aaron]

But my only true argument-- is that Seminal Retention is proper, for mega Qi Buildup.

 

Chi is Life Force, and be depleted

 

I have no problem with you saying this, my problem is when people state as a fact that masturbation is unhealthy, sinful, etc. when there is no basis to prove it.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

Not a single person here is saying that it's sinful.

 

Scientifically proven, though...it causes a temporary decrease in testosterone (makes men unhealthy and weak), whereas abstinence causes an increase in testosterone (makes men healthy).

[Aaron]

Check again...two studies. Of course that's the basis for my facts. I have at least brought something real to the table! In comparison, you haven't brought any real science into the discussion at all, Aaron.

 

You should read those full articles...they are very interesting.

 

Why only two studies...as far as I can tell, this subject is not something that is typically researched and published. Most studies have to do with premature ejaculation...hard to find ones about health and well being.

 

When you counter my argument, please don't give any studies that have to do with prostate health. We all know about that. I'm interested to see if you can come up with a single peer reviewed study that show how masturbation improves health and energy levels.

 

...

 

EDIT: I see you edited your post while I was responding...so the above might not make as much sense, but I'll just leave it as is.

 

Okay, first read your studies. The second one you listed only proves that abstaining from sex increases "blood pressure, heart rate, plasma catecholamines and prolactin" before and after ejaculation... hence abstaining is unhealthy, which means regular masturbation would be healthy. The first study proved that abstinence increased testosterone level, which results in all the things stated above, as well as depression, mood swings, anxiety, etc.

 

What are you trying to point out here, because I'm missing it. These studies only support what I've already said.

 

Aaron

[Disabled Not Broken]

I have no problem with you saying this, my problem is when people state as a fact that masturbation is unhealthy, sinful, etc. when there is no basis to prove it.

 

Aaron

 

Sin is the servant-slave/master-god trip... not my thing.

 

Some teachings/Daoism equate 1 drop of semen to 3 drops of blood loss.

 

Females lose Jing through their mentrusation.

When menstruation ceases in their older years- some females use hormone replacement...

 

Flip side- men can get still be fertile when they are in their 80's.

[Aaron]

My major argument is that religion uses sex as a means to gain control over their members and that religious Taoism and qigong is not so different. I'm encouraging people to trust facts, rather than evidence that can't be supported. Also I'm encouraging them to question how they are being taught. If someone says "do this until this happens, if you can't then you are unready/stupid/sinful/incompetent" then that is using negative reinforcement to ensure that you come to the conclusion they want you to.

 

Aaron

Edited August 19, 2012 by Aaron

[Aaron]

Not a single person here is saying that it's sinful.

 

Scientifically proven, though...it causes a temporary decrease in testosterone (makes men unhealthy and weak), whereas abstinence causes an increase in testosterone (makes men healthy).

 

Actually it's the opposite and that's what you're missing out on... high levels of testosterone are unhealthy, lowered levels of testosterone are healthy. I can't find any studies that state frequent masturbation causes health issues. You've already supported my argument with the two studies you've provided, so I wont bother looking up other studies just yet.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

Aaron,

 

Reread the studies. You misinterpreted the abstracts completely, and apparently don't understand the health effects of testosterone (which are positive). Seriously...take a step back, empty your mind, reread and try to understand rather than just think you're right and I'm wrong. It can take time for a person who isn't involved in science to read and comprehend these types of articles.

[Aetherous]

"They come in saying they feel excessively fatigued, weaker, depressed, and that they have lost their sex drive -- all common symptoms of a drop in testosterone."

 

From http://men.webmd.com...els-are-too-low

 

Please, bring some real science to the table, otherwise your misunderstandings are meaningless.

 

Edit: of course, excessively high levels of testosterone have some negative effects. But no one is going to reach those levels from abstinence...

Edited August 19, 2012 by Scotty

[Aaron]

Aaron,

 

Reread the studies. You misinterpreted the abstracts completely, and apparently don't understand the health effects of testosterone (which are positive). Seriously...take a step back, empty your mind, reread and try to understand rather than just think you're right and I'm wrong. It can take time for a person who isn't involved in science to read and comprehend these types of articles.

 

 

Umm... what are you talking about? I actually went back and reread the studies abstracts again, then went online and examined the effects of high testosterone levels and it's exactly as I said in my first post. I don't know what you're talking about, or if this is your clever way of trying to redirect the focus, regardless, the facts don't change just because you've said they do. High Testosterone = Bad... Masturbation is a natural way to regulate testosterone levels. That's the simple answer.

 

Aaron

Edited August 19, 2012 by Aaron

[Aetherous]

Low testosterone, and excessively high testosterone levels, are bad. You get low testosterone through jacking off...diminishing health and well being. You get normal testosterone through abstinence, which is healthy. You don't get excessively high testosterone through abstinence, as far as anyone knows. There are no studies on that or even any anecdotal evidence, so you can't use it as an argument.

 

So no more arguing that less testosterone is good, Aaron. It's not a legitimate point. Not based on any scientific fact. Go ask any one of your million doctors if low testosterone is good for men. Seriously...do it. Learn something.

 

Now about the abstracts I posted...they did not say what you thought they said. If you know anyone with a medical background, you should ask them for help in explaining it to you. I will attempt, if you will listen...

 

Here is what you claimed about the abstract....

 

The second one you listed only proves that abstaining from sex increases "blood pressure, heart rate, plasma catecholamines and prolactin" before and after ejaculation... hence abstaining is unhealthy, which means regular masturbation would be healthy.

 

It doesn't say that whatsoever. It says that ejaculation, both before and after periods of abstinence, caused those levels to spike. If you think those signs are unhealthy, then you're actually saying masturbation is unhealthy. Take a second and think about that. At least personally, I don't think they're necessarily unhealthy...since it's just temporary. Exercise raises heart rate, and that's not bad.

 

The abstract said that abstinence made no difference in terms of those levels during ejaculation; it is the same for those indicators, regardless...so it did not make the point that abstinence is unhealthy. That was your misinterpretation. In fact, since low testosterone is undesirable, and the abstract found that only after abstinence did testosterone levels increase...it was showing that excessive masturbation is health diminishing, and periods of abstinence can improve health.

 

From the abstract:

Orgasm increased blood pressure, heart rate, plasma catecholamines and prolactin. These effects were observed both before and after sexual abstinence.

 

I actually went back and reread the studies abstracts again, then went online and examined the effects of high testosterone levels and it's exactly as I said in my first post.

 

Trust me, it's not. Or don't trust me...ask a doctor to explain it to you. Because it's not.

 

I don't know what you're talking about, or if this is your clever way of trying to redirect the focus, regardless, the facts don't change just because you've said they do.

 

Exactly. The facts don't change, Aaron. I have posted facts here, after you claimed that there's no scientific basis for abstinence. I showed that there is. I am the only one in this argument who has posted any facts...keep that in mind. You haven't referenced a single peer reviewed study. And yet you try to misinterpret the facts that have been presented, to try and continue proving your misinformed, unscientific and nonfactual point of view.

 

High Testosterone = Bad

 

Actually, high testosterone is good. Excessively high testosterone is bad. And low testosterone is bad. Many of us today could be considered low testosterone, and in need of higher levels. Ask some real doctors about the current health of most men...don't just put words in their mouths based on your uninformed opinion.

 

We don't know if abstinence causes excessively high testosterone. There are no studies showing that. We do know that masturbation causes low testosterone. There is at least 1 study showing that.

 

Facts.

 

Masturbation is a natural way to regulate testosterone levels. That's the simple answer.

 

Actually, there is no need to regulate testosterone levels, as if they are naturally high. In most of us, as far as I know, they are not...the opposite is true. Most men already "regulate" too much, and end up with ED, depression, anxiety, low energy, etc. Go ask a doctor, instead of making up your own false interpretations of scientific literature.

 

Since I work in the health care field, I have actually had these conversations with docs and PAs I've worked with. Consensus is that too much jackin it is bad for you. They have seen the effects first hand in dealing with younger male patients...to the point where the PA completely swore off masturbation, and suggested I do the same! They are finding that younger and younger men are developing problems that only old men used to have.

 

I don't know if masturbation rates have increased...maybe...with more media and advertisement, we've gotten more brainwashing and sexual images. I can see how it could happen, where men in the past might have felt natural by only masturbating once to a few times a week, whereas these days they do it once to a few times a day. Who knows.

[Aaron]

Low testosterone, and excessively high testosterone levels, are bad. You get low testosterone through jacking off...diminishing health and well being. You get normal testosterone through abstinence, which is healthy. You don't get excessively high testosterone through abstinence, as far as anyone knows. There are no studies on that or even any anecdotal evidence, so you can't use it as an argument.

 

So no more arguing that less testosterone is good, Aaron. It's not a legitimate point. Not based on any scientific fact. Go ask any one of your million doctors if low testosterone is good for men. Seriously...do it. Learn something.

 

Now about the abstracts I posted...they did not say what you thought they said. If you know anyone with a medical background, you should ask them for help in explaining it to you. I will attempt, if you will listen...

 

Here is what you claimed about the abstract....

 

 

 

It doesn't say that whatsoever. It says that ejaculation, both before and after periods of abstinence, caused those levels to spike. If you think those signs are unhealthy, then you're actually saying masturbation is unhealthy. Take a second and think about that. At least personally, I don't think they're necessarily unhealthy...since it's just temporary. Exercise raises heart rate, and that's not bad.

 

The abstract said that abstinence made no difference in terms of those levels during ejaculation; it is the same for those indicators, regardless...so it did not make the point that abstinence is unhealthy. That was your misinterpretation. In fact, since low testosterone is undesirable, and the abstract found that only after abstinence did testosterone levels increase...it was showing that excessive masturbation is health diminishing, and periods of abstinence can improve health.

 

From the abstract:

 

 

 

 

Trust me, it's not. Or don't trust me...ask a doctor to explain it to you. Because it's not.

 

 

 

Exactly. The facts don't change, Aaron. I have posted facts here, after you claimed that there's no scientific basis for abstinence. I showed that there is. I am the only one in this argument who has posted any facts...keep that in mind. You haven't referenced a single peer reviewed study. And yet you try to misinterpret the facts that have been presented, to try and continue proving your misinformed, unscientific and nonfactual point of view.

 

 

 

Actually, high testosterone is good. Excessively high testosterone is bad. And low testosterone is bad. Many of us today could be considered low testosterone, and in need of higher levels. Ask some real doctors about the current health of most men...don't just put words in their mouths based on your uninformed opinion.

 

We don't know if abstinence causes excessively high testosterone. There are no studies showing that. We do know that masturbation causes low testosterone. There is at least 1 study showing that.

 

Facts.

 

 

 

Actually, there is no need to regulate testosterone levels, as if they are naturally high. In most of us, as far as I know, they are not...the opposite is true. Most men already "regulate" too much, and end up with ED, depression, anxiety, low energy, etc. Go ask a doctor, instead of making up your own false interpretations of scientific literature.

 

Since I work in the health care field, I have actually had these conversations with docs and PAs I've worked with. Consensus is that too much jackin it is bad for you. They have seen the effects first hand in dealing with younger male patients...to the point where the PA completely swore off masturbation, and suggested I do the same! They are finding that younger and younger men are developing problems that only old men used to have.

 

I don't know if masturbation rates have increased...maybe...with more media and advertisement, we've gotten more brainwashing and sexual images. I can see how it could happen, where men in the past might have felt natural by only masturbating once to a few times a week, whereas these days they do it once to a few times a day. Who knows.

 

Okay, first off I'm talking about normal masturbation, which I think can be considered 1-7 times a week. There is no evidence to support normal masturbation causes any kind of decrease in testosterone from any study I've seen. I do notice that a lot of the emotional trauma that comes from masturbation has to do with people saying it's bad and that people need to abstain in order to live holy/spiritual/qi-building lives. There is no scientific evidence yet been posted to support any of this.

 

My argument still stands, abstinence has no noticeable beneficial effects, scientifically speaking, nor is there any evidence that it increases one's spiritual worth. If you weren't supposed to masturbate then we wouldn't be able to, it's that simple. So from a Taoist perspective, the act is natural and every bit a part of Tao. Unless, of course, you're saying monkeys aren't a part of Tao? Why are we expected to live to a different standard than monkeys? Hmm... could it be because society has dictated it? What does the Tao Te Ching say about that? If you don't know I'll quote it later.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

My argument still stands

 

I just obliterated your argument...but keep going if you wish.

[Aaron]

Okay... since you want me to prove that you're spouting BS, I will simply quote the abstracts myself... here's the first study's abstract...

 

The purpose of this study is to gain understanding of the relationship between ejaculation and serum testosterone level in men. The serum testosterone concentrations of 28 volunteers were investigated daily during abstinence periods after ejaculation for two phases. The authors found that the fluctuations of testosterone levels from the 2nd to 5th day of abstinence were minimal. On the 7th day of abstinence, however, a clear peak of serum testosterone appeared, reaching 145.7% of the baseline ( P < 0.01). No regular fluctuation was observed following continuous abstinence after the peak. Ejaculation is the precondition and beginning of the special periodic serum testosterone level variations, which would not occur without ejaculation. The results showed that ejaculation-caused variations were characterized by a peak on the 7th day of abstinence; and that the effective time of an ejaculation is 7 days minimum. These data are the first to document the phenomenon of the periodic change in serum testosterone level; the correlation between ejaculation and periodic change in the serum testosterone level, and the pattern and characteristics of the periodic change.

 

Anyone that reads this can clearly see that the rise in testosterone occurs when one ejaculates after abstaining for seven days. An increase of 145.7% seems very high. That's 1 and half times the norm. Although no prolonged studies have been done, it seems that the body, after seven days may be making up for a lack of sexual activity. That's a layman's opinion, but it would seem plausible, since we are designed to procreate, not abstain from procreation.

 

You have yet to prove any harmful effects from normal masturbation and in fact there is little to no evidence that compulsive masturbation causes any long term effects either, hence there is no plausible reason one should abstain from masturbation to any degree.

Some doctors recommend that you restrict masturbation to 3 time a week, but there is no evidence to support that this is necessary or required.

 

The studies that have been done regarding masturbation have been heavily funded by religious and moral authorities who are trying to support their arguments again pornography and the moral decline of society.

 

The irony is that you've taken the argument there as well. I say the moral decline in society occurred when we villianized normal sexual behaviors in an attempt to control how people express themselves sexually. Blame the priests, monks, and masters for this, not science.

 

I was actually emailed by someone who claimed I was sexually obsessed because I take this topic so seriously, but that's not it at all. I see the harm this does to young people all to often on this site and it pisses me off to no ends. Who the hell has the right to dictate how another person should behave? Who has the right to tell them that they're killing themselves because they're wasting a source of energy that can't be measured by any means other than through one's own metaphysical perception. The same people that laugh at the new agers and berate them for their deluded beliefs, scoff at UFOs, are brazen enough to claim Qi is an actual energy source, when there is no proof that it actually exists.

 

All and all this is leaving me with a bad impression of qigong.

 

Aaron

Edited August 20, 2012 by Aaron

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yeah, it's not likely just testosterone that goes up, and what of the other stuff can be measured by these people?

 

I don't think Shen and the western notion of Spirit are entirely the same, so I don't think Shen could be cultivated by Virtue alone. Taoist Alchemists talked about jing transformation to chi and shen. I'm not sure virtue alone will do this. There were those who considered sexual (yet celibate) practices to be "side path distractions" but they also talked about transmutation of jing to chi to shen, so they have a different path.

 

Taoism is mainly a religion for people who renounce (renounce, not denounce) worldly life to achieve another achievement. If that's not your path, then you have another path.. Whatever... not everybody is expected to do this.. Everybody has different things to do to maintain harmony in society to allow society to progress. When they do what is for them, and everybody does what is for them, then that is good too..

 

How you live in the world is a path unto itself.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[Aetherous]

Aaron,

 

An increase of 145.7% seems very high. That's 1 and half times the norm.

 

It's not that much higher than normal, which is (obviously) 100%. If they advertised, "Increase your testosterone by 1.46%!" it would sound extremely dull, actually.

 

And if you read the full text of the study, you would see that after ejaculation until day 2, testosterone levels are well below normal = bad for men, if they are continually draining themselves that quickly! I used to.

 

For those who could benefit from increasing testosterone (most of us, including you I intuit), maybe waiting every 7 or 8 days could help in the long term. Would it get their testosterone levels dangerously high? I don't think so...that's something you will have to prove scientifically if you want to argue that point.

 

since we are designed to procreate, not abstain from procreation.

 

You understand that "abstain" does not mean forever, right? I masturbate every few days, and always aim to go beyond a week...when I'm not doing it, I'm abstaining (preferably not thinking about it at all). I can still make babies!

 

You have yet to prove any harmful effects from normal masturbation and in fact there is little to no evidence that compulsive masturbation causes any long term effects either, hence there is no plausible reason one should abstain from masturbation to any degree.

Some doctors recommend that you restrict masturbation to 3 time a week, but there is no evidence to support that this is necessary or required.

 

Some very good evidence are the two main studies I shared here. Also, doctors sometimes do things based off of their experience and large amounts of anecdotal evidence. They're generally smart people.

 

If "normal masturbation" is every few days to a week, then that's totally awesome. That is what TCM doctors have recommended as well, based on what I've seen. But if it's within 2 days, it can be harmful...I suspect for more reasons than just testosterone dropping below baseline. Our bodies are so complex, and scientists generally require profitable reasons to study something...so we're still in the dark about all that hasn't yet been investigated. We have to go on our personal experience for our best results.

 

Little to no evidence that compulsive masturbation has negative effects in the long term? Have you not been paying attention? Try my experiment, of jerking off three times a day, versus abstaining for week long periods at a time. Really...do it before speaking. See how you feel! That's not me programming you to experience something negative...I'm telling you to find out for real. Maybe use your hypnosis to deprogram yourself and just discover the truth of the matter.

 

The studies that have been done regarding masturbation have been heavily funded by religious and moral authorities who are trying to support their arguments again pornography and the moral decline of society.

 

The two that I linked? Where did you get that information? Or did you just pull it out of your ass like the rest of your "argument'?

 

I see the harm this does to young people all to often on this site and it pisses me off to no ends. Who the hell has the right to dictate how another person should behave?

 

I see the harm that you do, by trying to convince people they can drain themselves of their energy with no negative effect. Now that is harmful...especially when dealing with practices that are so transformational, as most of us do here.

 

I do not wish to tell other people how to behave, regarding whether they masturbate or not. I could care less...unless it affects them negatively.

 

Who has the right to tell them that they're killing themselves because they're wasting a source of energy that can't be measured by any means other than through one's own metaphysical perception.

 

Whoever has metaphysical perception, who has experience for themselves, and has science to back up their claims...they have the right to tell others what is healthy and what isn't. They have the right and ability to help...unlike those without metaphysical perception, without experience, and without scientific evidence (you).

 

And that "source of energy" is measured by at least one indicator: testosterone. Stop weaseling your way out of that, please...it's annoying to deal with. Speaking of annoying, at this point we're just going around in circles, so unless you have something substantial to share here (like a peer reviewed study), please don't address me again. This is not an enjoyable way for me to spend my time...and is becoming unproductive as well.

[chi 2012]

Excessive masturbation or ejaculation does cause one to have a temporary reduction in testosterone - and to feel somewhat lethargic for a few days. In most cases this isn't that big of a deal because the body recovers in a few days. The real problem is when the body doesn't recover and people have these symptoms permanetly. I have friends that have never used steroids and are on TRT replacement for the rest of their lives. There doctors just tell them they have a medical condition and need to be on hormones.

 

The question is - why do these peoples systems permenatly shut down? I think guys like Dr. Lin are correct and the reason this happened is because of excessive ejaculation. Now Western Medicine has produced studies - showing that ejeculation causes testosterone to drop for a short period of time. What Western Medicine hasn't considered yet - is that the reason these males that need to be on hormones - is because they have exceded their "ejaculation limit".

 

I don't think having sex or beating off 20 times in a weekend is going to permantly shut down a male for life unless the person has reached their "lifetime ejaculation limit". For the most part after a weekend like this - the male will feel tired and lethargic for a few days - but should recover.

 

As far as what an individuals "lifetime ejaculation limit" is? I think it depends on an individuals natural genetic hormonal make up. I would say hairy guys with male pattern baldness and naturally high testosterone levels have a much higher limit then "pretty boy guys" who have naturally lower hormone levels.

 

So, since nobody really knows what their limit is - it is best to not beat off more than a couple times a week - and just save it for sex.....why take the chance. Then, if the oppurtunity comes along to sleep with Jessica Alba 20 times in a weekend comes up - they can do it. Sure, they are taking a small risk of a permenant shutdown....but if they haven't reached their limit they will feel better in a few days.

[Aaron]

Scotty, talking to you is like having to get your tooth pulled. First, you're speculating again. Second, in another thread someone else brought up the point that most of the studies on masturbation have been funded by groups trying to prove it is negative.

 

Again, using speculation as fact is just dishonest. By the way, check out the wikipedia site if you want to learn more about masturbation and the health benefits. As far as this conversation goes, I'll talk to other people about this topic, but you're just too unreasonable.

 

Aaron

Edited August 20, 2012 by Aaron

[skydog]

Well Im pretty sure from feeling my own energy it drastically drains me..I was just wondering on how to naturally avoid it, which some sugegstions came up, however good points have been made about it could accentuate all negative blockages etc..