Taoism and masturbation

[RyanO]

I'll go ahead and add my thoughts to this topic.

 

There seems to be a lot of angles here. Aaron, I grew up in secular household with older siblings and plenty of access to porn. I was not taught that sex was sinful, bad, or whatever. Whenever it was mentioned, it was seen positively. Probably too positively. I began masturbating to pornography frequently, and this eventually affected my relationship with girls. I never felt horny around them and this was obviously frustrating and disturbing. I consoled myself with more masturbation and this created a vicious cycle.

 

My point is that I created this cycle not from religious guilt but from access to pornography and following my resulting natural impulses. And I think your crusade against religions is not applicable for mainstream society in this day and age. Most young men are not suffering from their religions but from internet pornography. I agree with your views on religion but I don't see this as the big issue with regard to sexuality. If young guys were taught that ejaculating too much might be harmful they would be better for it, I wish I had been.

 

Now, I am not celibate, but I don't ejaculate nearly as much as I used to, and feel much better for it. I have learned that chasing ejaculations is not a path to sexual fulfillment, and in fact inhibits it. Rather, I have found much more lasting bliss by opening my heart.

 

Semen retention for alchemy is a huge topic of which I am very much a beginner. But I can say that my energy levels increase when I haven't ejaculated for a couple days. Longest I have gone is 50 days and felt great during this time. So I think there may be something to the jing/qi/shen transformation.

 

Final point, I think your arguments might be true for the middle ages and some fundamentalists, but I don't think they are as applicable to modern secular folk. I think you're missing the boat when you see discussion of semen retention as being driven by some kind of guilt.

Edited August 20, 2012 by RyanO

[Disabled Not Broken]

http://thetaobums.co...ax/page__st__16

 

Seminal Retention - is best accomplished, with another person.

This way- while having sex- you are receiving a consummate Yin energy- to counter your built up, Yang energy.

 

Reciprocation, is key, here.

 

Porn, is one sided...

Porn also links you to 'that Egregore'

 

Deja Vu`

[Aaron]

My main argument is that there is no evidence to support that masturbation is harmful to you physically. None that I have ever found. A reduce in testosterone levels isn't indicative of harm, nor has there been any link to excessive masturbation and lowered testosterone. Some doctors believe the reduction in testosterone we see in certain individuals may be caused by the environment, specifically the hormones found in meats that have been injected with steroids. The fact is testosterone hormonal treatment itself is controversial, not everyone agreeing that it's needed or necessary.

 

With that said, if someone comes on and simply says, "I want to practice semen retention in order to further my practice" you will not see me reply to that, rather I reply to the numerous young people that come afterwards with their cries of shame over having committed the harmless act of masturbation.

 

I personally don't believe pornography is beneficial, in fact it is harmful to both the actors involved and the people that can become addicted to it. However I had one person who was beating themselves up over watching a hentai film and I had to ask him, "why?" This is the problem we face in modern society, we are still very much driven by the remains of the old moral standards upon which our society was founded. We can say that we are more open minded, but then you have to remember that in most western societies a high percentage of people still practice Christian values, just as in eastern societies they practice Buddhist values (among other religions). Both of these religions prohibit masturbation, which means most parents discourage their children from masturbating, resulting in a negative image of their own genitalia. They view their sexual organs as dirty and using it, other than the proscribed and religiously and morally correct way brings a bout of shame.

 

That's my problem, their should be no guilt associated with sex at all, nor should we try to control how others use their own body's, even if they want to use them too much. It's their decision and in my understanding of the Tao Teh Ching, it's the Taoist way to approach this. When people can start a conversation about this topic by stating "there is no scientific evidence to support that ejaculation causes harm to people, however some sects of qigong believe otherwise" I can stay silent, because no one is being misled.

 

Anyways, my overall view is that the Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu had no opinion in this regard and probably would've laughed if someone had made the suggestion that normal sexual behavior was harmful. Again, every monkey on the planet would probably be considered a compulsive masturbater, but for some reason we are different. It's society's inability to understand Te and it's relationship to Tao that causes us to think this way.

 

Aaron

[Aetherous]

Oh well. No hard feelings from me, Aaron.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Scotty

[Aetherous]

.

Edited August 20, 2012 by Scotty

[RyanO]

Aaron,

 

Again I agree that guilt over sexual issues is a problem. It is really only useful in that it helps us change our behavior to our benefit. You say masturbation isn't harmful, but then you say compulsive masturbation is. So where is the line drawn?

 

As far as evidence goes, I think Scotty's sources are right on. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that confirms that masturbation can cause ED and premature ejaculation, thus being harmful.

 

As far as this topic goes, I don't think Taoism is about indulging in our animal instincts. The fact that monkeys masturbate doesn't exactly help your argument. They also rape and throw feces at each other. Human nature is different than monkey nature (plus I've heard that monkeys only masturbate in captivity). We have a natural pull toward spiritual life, and spiritual life is in part about becoming free from pleasure/addiction cycles as a source of happiness. This mystical realization then got skewed into religious dogma. But at it's core, it's a natural process.

[Aaron]

Aaron,

 

Again I agree that guilt over sexual issues is a problem. It is really only useful in that it helps us change our behavior to our benefit. You say masturbation isn't harmful, but then you say compulsive masturbation is. So where is the line drawn?

 

As far as evidence goes, I think Scotty's sources are right on. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence that confirms that masturbation can cause ED and premature ejaculation, thus being harmful.

 

As far as this topic goes, I don't think Taoism is about indulging in our animal instincts. The fact that monkeys masturbate doesn't exactly help your argument. They also rape and throw feces at each other. Human nature is different than monkey nature (plus I've heard that monkeys only masturbate in captivity). We have a natural pull toward spiritual life, and spiritual life is in part about becoming free from pleasure/addiction cycles as a source of happiness. This mystical realization then got skewed into religious dogma. But at it's core, it's a natural process.

 

I disagree with several of the things you say, the most prominent having to do with freeing ourselves from pleasure. The Tao Te Ching tells us to diminish our desires, not be free of them, for the simple fact that we can never be free of them. I think that you're mixing Buddhism with Taoism here and it's not your fault, much of Buddhist philosophy has been superimposed upon Taoism and most of us aren't even aware of it.

 

So this is a very simple question, if we know that diminishing our desires helps us to lead more normal lives, simply by leaving us with fewer distractions, then why isn't it simpler when a young man (or any man for that matter) is aroused to masturbate, rather than abstain and allow his arousal to increase, causing him anxiety and frustration? Also the evidence is anecdotal, just like there was plenty anecdotal evidence to support that caffeine was causing high blood pressure, it seemed to make sense since it was a stimulant, however recent research has shown that it may actually do the opposite.

 

Now many people who have researched ED believe that it has an emotional component to it, so when someone comes in complaining about it to their therapist, one would suppose that the therapist would try to help the patient find out if there is a psychosomatic component to it, but in our modern society we choose to prescribe viagra instead or testosterone replacement therapy. Keep in mind that both of these drugs are making the drug companies millions and they're more than happy to provide the "evidence" that they need to continue making money.

 

The point I'm making is that what we perceive to be natural may not be, that how we have been taught to view things may very well be the cause of our problems. The world today is no more "deviant" than it was 2,000 years ago, the only difference is the medium we express those "deviancies" in. The greeks had pottery, the romans had bath house walls, modern man has video, and we've all had pen and paper. The truth of the matter is that man has been saying "the world is getting worse" for centuries, without realizing that very little has changed.

 

My final point is that a man who is practicing Te as it's proscribed within the Tao Te Ching would not try to control his desires, but rather he would try to do what allowed him to interact with others in a harmonious way. In China, prior to the rise of Buddhism, Taoists advocated having sex often, in various ways, with as many partners as they found willing. They believed sex increased energy levels, not diminished them. It seems strange to me that it was only after Buddhist morality infiltrated Taoism that we began to view it as being "icky", unhealthy, and something that needed to diminished in order to achieve oneness with Tao.

 

I don't think Lao Tzu would've advocated abstinence, and since Chuang Tzu was married and had children, I'm going to assume neither would he, but apparently somewhere down the line, someone decided that it was in the best interest of Taoism to do just this. I point my finger at morality as the cause, so does the Tao Te Ching.

 

I can choose to follow what Lao Tzu, the father of Taoism taught, or I can choose to follow a relatively small number of qigong practitioners have decided was the "moral" and healthy alternative, even though it seems to cause so many people to struggle and suffer.

 

You know what pisses me off is that when one of these young men comes on this website and complains about guilt or inability to remain celibate, we don't say, "hey if it's causing you that much stress, maybe it's not for you right now." No, what we do is begin to tell them all the benefits that it causes, how we've been able to do it, and that they shouldn't give up, planting within them those seeds of doubt that perpetuate the guilt and self loathing they already feel.

 

Again, there is no proven evidence to support that masturbation has negative effects on anyone, yet we've believed for so long it does, maybe we're looking for even the smallest glimmer of evidence to support that it does, in the hopes of proving that we haven't been misled to and lied to by our parents and religious leaders.

 

In the end nothing in this thread has changed my mind about masturbation. I have my opinion and I'll keep sharing it for as long as other people keep sharing their belief that it's harmful and sinful.

 

Aaron

Edited August 21, 2012 by Aaron

[RyanO]

Aaron, I understand and appreciate that you feel strongly about this, and agree with the spirit behind your approach, just maybe not some of the details. We can both agree to disagree about these aspects.

 

However, I did want to clarify my point about freedom from "pleasure/addiction cycles as a source of happiness", which you wrongly misinterpreted as "freeing ourselves from pleasure". I have two points:

 

1) There are different degrees of pleasure. I believe one purpose of this life is to find sources of pleasure that are long lasting and beneficial to our health. And grasping for certain pleasures, drugs for instance, inhibit our ability to experience other more satisfying pleasures and ultimately create suffering. So my point was not that pleasure itself is bad, but the craving for certain harmful and addictive pleasures is bad. And it seems we disagree on the role masturbation plays in achieving well-being.

 

2) Also, I did not say we should be free from pleasure, I said we should be free from cycles of pleasure as sources of happiness. I agree that being free from pleasure is not a healthy goal, as we have a body and this body needs to know what's good for it. But, I believe that when pleasure seeking itself becomes the foundation of one's happiness, this creates more suffering in the long run, because there is no litmus for determining healthy from unhealthy pleasure. Rather, obtaining happiness from meaning will guide to us to what pleasures are fruitful and which one's are harmful.

 

With that in mind, again, we simply disagree about the benefits/harm of masturbation. To each their own. I jumped in this thread because I wanted to give my personal experience. There are things that I agree with you on and things I don't agree, all good.

 

Best to you,

 

-Ryan

[Disabled Not Broken]

Prior to reading the TTB's I had no idea that guys were going at it that much.

I'm male-- and had no idea, either lol

[Veritas]

In my experience from practicing neigong I find that you do lose qi when you ejaculate. I feel a drop in energy and if I try to practice my meditation afterwards, it actually hurts my lower dantien. There is an actual physical pain on my dantien and it becomes unbearable to a point where I can't even practice. That's why a lot of chi cultivation schools stress that you should not practice within 3 days after ejaculation. But luckily there is a way around this problem. It's possible to have orgasms without losing semen by squeezing your PC muscle right before ejaculating.

 

http://www.beautynationpl.com/en/sexual_performance.asp?pageID=8master_male_orgasm

 

 

http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Secrets-Love-Cultivating-Sexual/dp/0943358191/ref=pd_sim_mov_2

[Aaron]

In my experience from practicing neigong I find that you do lose qi when you ejaculate. I feel a drop in energy and if I try to practice my meditation afterwards, it actually hurts my lower dantien. There is an actual physical pain on my dantien and it becomes unbearable to a point where I can't even practice. That's why a lot of chi cultivation schools stress that you should not practice within 3 days after ejaculation. But luckily there is a way around this problem. It's possible to have orgasms without losing semen by squeezing your PC muscle right before ejaculating.

 

http://www.beautynat...ter_male_orgasm

 

 

http://www.amazon.co...ef=pd_sim_mov_2

 

Oh... why did you have to go there. This is another pet peeve of mine, because I know people who've used these methods without supervision that have caused permanent physical damage to themselves. Any pressure on the perineum and urethra can cause damage. I have a friend who's had two surgeries as a result of applying pressure to perineum in order to delay or prevent orgasm. He will have to undergo another surgery, but is putting it off because the doctor said it only has a 50% chance of removing the scar tissue that occurred.

 

These methods are meant for people at the very end of their qigong practice and the people who were practicing them in China were instructed in person by their teachers. It's not meant to be learned in a book. If you read the books, they have a disclaimer, but very few people take it seriously.

 

Again, if you're trying to delay the natural occurrence of something there is going to be damage eventually. The build up of energy during ejaculation isn't meant to be retained in my opinion, but rather released to a partner. If you're sole purpose for abstaining from sex and retaining semen is to increase your own power, you've missed some of the very basic teachings of Taoism, and obviously have not attained the wisdom necessary to truly gain the benefits from this kind of practice.

 

My recommendation, abstinence is by far less dangerous than perineum pressure and PC muscle control exercises (which have been anecdotally linked to permanent erectile dysfunction).

 

Aaron

Edited August 21, 2012 by Aaron

[mYTHmAKER]

really beating this topic to death

[suninmyeyes]

[Mokona]

Prior to reading the TTB's I had no idea that guys were going at it that much. And then at one point the 'kundalini' fired 'just so' for a while and I suddenly and painfully understood what it might be like to be a young dude (in my case, I used 'MCO' as a catch-all for pretty much everything for a while).

 

Where I am curious about male masturbation (or even sex for that matter) is that it seems to get co-opted as a 'stress-management' behavior for pretty much everything. The stuff I've read on here suggests that ejac is itself stressful for men and so some kind of 'non-virtuous circle' is established where the guy feels terrible/stressed, whacks off, feels better, then feels terrible/stressed, rince and repeat.

 

But then there's the whole 'socio-cultural-religious' 'overlay' which apparently makes it stressful for men to pleasure themselves from very early on (as soon as someone says 'Don't touch that') - making neurotics of many. So, to the contrary, I think it's a valid topic on TTB's (especially since so many practices use 'sexual energy' in one way or another).

 

Beating it is lame and sometimes the sex drive overrides that factoid until after the dirty deed has been done. Therefore - the circle you describe above.

 

I don't see actual sex as at all stressful. Also, energetic sexual techniques that just require chi are amazing, no draw backs other than you may find yourself attached to archetypes or spirits or they may find themselves attached to you. Makes for interesting conversations when they agrre to do small things for you, like pinch people who are very deserving.

[Veritas]

Oh... why did you have to go there. This is another pet peeve of mine, because I know people who've used these methods without supervision that have caused permanent physical damage to themselves. Any pressure on the perineum and urethra can cause damage. I have a friend who's had two surgeries as a result of applying pressure to perineum in order to delay or prevent orgasm. He will have to undergo another surgery, but is putting it off because the doctor said it only has a 50% chance of removing the scar tissue that occurred.

 

These methods are meant for people at the very end of their qigong practice and the people who were practicing them in China were instructed in person by their teachers. It's not meant to be learned in a book. If you read the books, they have a disclaimer, but very few people take it seriously.

 

Again, if you're trying to delay the natural occurrence of something there is going to be damage eventually. The build up of energy during ejaculation isn't meant to be retained in my opinion, but rather released to a partner. If you're sole purpose for abstaining from sex and retaining semen is to increase your own power, you've missed some of the very basic teachings of Taoism, and obviously have not attained the wisdom necessary to truly gain the benefits from this kind of practice.

 

My recommendation, abstinence is by far less dangerous than perineum pressure and PC muscle control exercises (which have been anecdotally linked to permanent erectile dysfunction).

 

Aaron

 

Sorry to hear that about your friend. I personally don't know anyone having problems while doing PC muscle control exercises. In fact Mintak Chia have been practicing that for over 10 years and he never had any problems with it. We all know that abstaining and being celibate can be very difficult, so just wanted to let people know that there are other methods out there that will prevent the loss of chi if you do have sex or masturbate. But do your own research. Don't just listen to some guy on a forum tell you what's right or wrong for you.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[skydog]

Gerard thanks- I guess shaking medicine/Stillness movements works on opening the joints?

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[skydog]

So your saying follow your heart...pondering this for a couple of hours.

 

So if I really do what I want I would live somewhere like puerto vallarta in mexico, live near either the beaches, jungles, or nightclubs with similar kind of thinking people and friendliness. Also women there are in extreme abundance and my kind of women..

 

I would also like to go travelling occasionally.

 

I would like my family to be happy and interested in these kind of topics and change their lifestyle and live near me ahah....already started teaching my dad qigong so I dunno

 

I would like to have enough money to live comfortably in puerto vallarta...so I guess I could easily get a job as a waiter as I was told its easier for white (kind of ) people and then could buy a house as long as its not too strenous..

 

I would also like to teach techniques for people to alter their consciousness such as qigong, drumming etc...so I guess I could learn these things...

 

I would like a small amount of job security although I dont know what I prefer

 

I want free time and freedom to be around nature and cultivate

 

I want my dad to be proud of me and think im doing well and be happy with me (seeking approval quite big here)

 

I want my brother and mum and dad to learn more of these consciousness changing things and change their lives with it somewhat..

 

I guess those are things to think about...strange how my mind just clicked on mexico all of a sudden out of the blue.

Edited August 23, 2012 by sinansencer