Taijiquan Styles

[mYTHmAKER]

Also, spiritual developement means emotional growth, and tai chi is not really geared for that like some other systems are.

Really? Care to explain

[Starjumper]

The idea that spiritual growth is emotional growth is something I realized as truth when I saw it. Spiritual maturity is emotional maturity, that is all. It's the meditations that both puts the frosting on the cake and the burden, but those are extras.

 

Tai chi being a spiritual practice? not for me. but everything is relative, right? So of course tai chi is more of a spiritual practice than badmitton, but much less so than some dedicated Taoist meditational practices. Some people haved said here that tai chi can be a spiritual practice when combined with meditation, but it's the meditation mostly, and not the tai chi that does that.

 

Some people will say that tai chi is meditation too, and that's true, but the kind of meditation matters.

 

In the beginning meditators are told to focus on the body to help stop thinking, but once non thinking has been mastered then focussing on the body is no longer useful because the act of focussing creates some tension which must be also discarded to achieve deep meditation. Tai chi has more focus on the body and it's positions, movements, breathing, etc than any other practice on Earth, and so it is the best possible practice for beginners to achieve a meditational state, or for people who are too 'busy' to sit for long, or who have achieved ADD due to being poisoned.

[Starjumper]

I realized as truth when I saw it.

 

The reason I can know truth when I see it is because my crown point is highly energized, and I've been told, by those who can see, that it emits a strong beam of violet light.

[mYTHmAKER]

The idea that spiritual growth is emotional growth is something I realized as truth when I saw it. Spiritual maturity is emotional maturity, that is all. It's the meditations that both puts the frosting on the cake and the burden, but those are extras.

 

Tai chi being a spiritual practice? not for me. but everything is relative, right? So of course tai chi is more of a spiritual practice than badmitton, but much less so than some dedicated Taoist meditational practices. Some people haved said here that tai chi can be a spiritual practice when combined with meditation, but it's the meditation mostly, and not the tai chi that does that.

 

Some people will say that tai chi is meditation too, and that's true, but the kind of meditation matters.

 

In the beginning meditators are told to focus on the body to help stop thinking, but once non thinking has been mastered then focussing on the body is no longer useful because the act of focussing creates some tension which must be also discarded to achieve deep meditation. Tai chi has more focus on the body and it's positions, movements, breathing, etc than any other practice on Earth, and so it is the best possible practice for beginners to achieve a meditational state, or for people who are too 'busy' to sit for long, or who have achieved ADD due to being poisoned.

Are you Starjumper7 reincarnated? If so welcome back. Interesting thoughts. IMHO the importance of tai chi is in song, letting go, which leads to both spiritual and emotional maturity. At some point we no longer focus on the forms thus no tension - wu wei we are acting appropriately in the moment.

[Starjumper]

Yes, I'm Starjumper7, thanks for the welcome. I agree with your points, as tai chi is meditational it can lead to some spiritual growth and maturity (I guess), maybe that depends on the teacher. Of course it takes a bit of emotional maturity for a person to be able to practice tai chi in the first place. My main point was that there are other, more dedicated, spiritual cultivation systems that can work much faster than tai chi, however I agree that tai chi is more suitable for most people.

 

I never considered doing tai chi without focusing on some aspect of the form since it has endless depth and there seems to be always some aspect of movement that can be further explored.

[mYTHmAKER]

What are the meditations you recommend? Thought I'd never ask eh LOL

Ever finish your cabin?

[Starjumper]

I finished the house up in the mountains of Washington mostly. The outside was done but the interior was still bare studs when I bailed out of the US and my marriage. The ex got the unfinished house. that was a pretty spectacular part of the state there, and my property had some really high cliffs on it. My property here has fewer shorter cliffs. I like mountains. Now I have a house I've built here in Ecuador but it isn't finished yet. The basic structure is done but it needs windows, doors, and paint. Right now I'm living in a little wood shack, which I like quite a lot. I finally got running water set up but still walk down to the stream to get some of the purest drinking water on the planet ... since my property includes the local mountain and ridge tops all the water orignates on my own land from rainfall.

 

Are you asking about meditations I recommend for what I consider a fast (some might say powerful) path?

Edited August 18, 2013 by Starjumper

[mYTHmAKER]

I finished the house up in the mountains of Washington mostly. The outside was done but the interior was still bare studs when I bailed out of the US and my marriage. The ex got the unfinished house. that was a pretty spectacular part of the state there, and my property had some really high cliffs on it. My property here has fewer shorter cliffs. I like mountains. Now I have a house I've built here in Ecuador but it isn't finished yet. The basic structure is done but it needs windows, doors, and paint. Right now I'm living in a little wood shack, which I like quite a lot. I finally got running water set up but still walk down to the stream to get some of the purest drinking water on the planet ... since my property includes the local mountain and ridge tops all the water orignates on my own land from rainfall.

 

Are you asking about meditations I recommend for what I consider a fast (some might say powerful) path?

I was asking about meditations you recommend but also would like to know about a fast powerful path. Whatever you wish to share.

[Iskote]

It's funny how much emphasis there is in Taiji training regarding rooting, distinguishing full/empty, sinking, and so on.

At the same time, my teacher stresses that all footwork in Taiji is light and agile.

This is because when stepping in taiji you should be always stepping with your empty leg. You can sink and be rooted in one leg while your are light (empty) in your stepping in your other leg. In this way you can be both rooted and light and agile at the same time. This is why it is important to always clearly distinguish between yin and yang (insubstantial and substantial) in taiji. The principles of taiji really aren't so mysterious or hard to understand. However putting those principles correctly into practice at all times so that it becomes second nature is where the tricky part is, and that requires many years of practice for most people.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Iskote

[Iskote]

I am going to say something that some people might find controversial or even heresy, but here it is anyway. While fajin training probably has different levels of achievement and skill, there are some taiji masters who seem to feel that such practices are still lower level practices. Taiji takes many years to gain even some degree of proficiency in, so in the mean time during all those years before you reach a high level (if you ever reach a high level ) you still need some practical self defense skills. Fajin is therefore like intermediate skills training, where you are learning to use your qi in combination with body coordination and alignment and also train and make use of a sort of tendon and muscle kind of elastic force as well. At higher levels (not many at all get there it seems) taiji masters don't need to use fajin to emit force. They can direct their qi immediately to any part of their body in various ways, and also at the same time redirect an opponent's own force back to the opponent at the same time, and thus send an opponent flying with seemingly little to no movement or effort. Some taiji masters don't even seem to bother with teaching fajin and just start by training and emphasizing total relaxation and the mind controlling qi connection right from the start. Regarding this, does anyone know for certain if Cheng Man Ching ever taught fajin?

Edited August 18, 2013 by Iskote

[ChiDragon]

I am going to say something that some people might find controversial or even heresy, but here it is anyway. While fajin training probably has different levels of achievement and skill, there are some taiji masters who seem to feel that such practices are still lower level practices. Taiji takes many years to gain even some degree of proficiency in, so in the mean time during all those years before you reach a high level (if you ever reach a high level ) you still need some practical self defense skills. Fajin is therefore like intermediate skills training, where you are learning to use your qi in combination with body coordination and alignment and also train and make use of a sort of tendon and muscle kind of elastic force as well.

 

 

At higher levels (not many at all get there it seems) taiji masters don't need to use fajin to emit force. They can direct their qi immediately to any part of their body in various ways, and also at the same time redirect an opponent's own force back to the opponent at the same time, and thus send an opponent flying with seemingly little to no movement or effort. Some taiji masters don't even seem to bother with teaching fajin and just start by training and emphasizing total relaxation and the mind controlling qi connection right from the start. Regarding this, does anyone know for certain if Cheng Man Ching ever taught fajin?

 

Here is how I understand about fajin and always this way....

 

The former is completely true. However, the latter is not quite so. There is no special training for fajin need to be taught. After a long period of Tai Ji practice, the jin is automatic developed in the muscles and tendons without having one being realized. When the practitioner issue a force, this force is automatically issued as jin. Another words, after a long time practice of Tai Ji, any force exerted by the body is considered to be Jin. The latter was a myth. Thus Qi is not that miraculous as one's thought it was.

 

PS....

Chneg Man Ching may not have taught fajin. However, I had read one of his books in Chinese. He had a great emphasis on fajin in his book.

Edited August 18, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Iskote]

ChiDragon, I don't agree with your assessment of fajin being limited to emitting force mainly using tendons and muscles. According to what I understood from some comments made by some taiji masters, that is apparently considered lower level or even undesired practice by some at least. Where some of the confusion may arise is some masters may use the term fajin (issuing force or strength) but they seem not to be referring to issuing force based on muscle or tendon use. They really seem to be talking about something beyond that. So although the same term may be used (fajin), they seem to be talking about a different kind of skill. There seems to be various references to this type of higher skill in taiji in the taiji classics where it emphasizes that mind (or will) leads qi and the body follows. Two quite famous and very noteworthy students of Cheng Man Ching, which I have researched somewhat, Benjamin Lo and Huang Xingxiang, seem to be of this school of thought of emphasizing very soft and relaxed taiji, and placing emphasis on the mind leading qi as the main training focus. T. T. Liang, another Cheng Man Ching student, also seems to have followed this same emphasis, I believe. Maybe I should not have brought up the term fajin, since it really can be just a generic term about issuing force and doesn't really necessarily have anything to do with specific fajin exercises that some schools of taiji practice. Anyway, there does seem to be some major differences in the emphasis and the way that some taji teachers teach the form, is what I am getting at.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Iskote

[Celestial]

If this hasn't been posted already: http://www.energyarts.com/how-do-i-choose-tai-chi-style

 

I hope this helps.

[zerostao]

iskote, i dont find what you are saying controversial at all and this same conversation has been conversed with much redundancy in the few years i have been on this board. both sides of this conversation using the broadest of brushes

and keeping the finer brushes safely concealed far from display.

"They can direct their qi immediately to any part of their body in various ways," grand circulation?

and tho, i do not hold to the same position as chi dragon does, he consistently fares well in these discussions.

[PLB]

Iskote,

You ask "Regarding this, does anyone know for certain if Cheng Man Ching ever taught fajin?" I don't know for certain because I wasn't there. But I have run into his students who seem to know something about the release of energy.

Kicked my ass anyway.

[Iskote]

"They can direct their qi immediately to any part of their body in various ways," grand circulation?

Hi zerostao. I don't know, but you may well need to have the 'grand circulation' (extra channels) very open before you can approach that kind of skill level. There is what looks like an interesting book out by a student of Benjamim Lo which looks like it may delve into some of the finer techniques of using qi in different ways in taiji, but I am not sure how much of what is in the book (I haven't read the book yet) is just the author's own ideas and views and how much of it was actually relayed to him by his teacher Ben Lo (student of Cheng Man Ching). The book is called "Juice", by Scott Meredith.

 

Scott Meredith has some interesting translations of some taiji related docs on his website as well:

http://www.zmq37.com/writings.html

This includes some translations of writings on taiji push hands by Li Yaxuan, apparently a major student of Yang Chen Fu.

 

Not to worry about ChiDragon disagreeing. I am not too interested in 'debating' such things as I know debates on those sort of topics usually go nowhere. I have been reading this forum off and on for years now. I was mainly just bringing it up for interest's sake. Not only are there different styles in taiji, but teachers within a given style may teach in different ways and have different emphasis. That was really the point I was getting at.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Iskote

[Iskote]

Iskote,

You ask "Regarding this, does anyone know for certain if Cheng Man Ching ever taught fajin?" I don't know for certain because I wasn't there. But I have run into his students who seem to know something about the release of energy. Kicked my ass anyway.

I have decided to stay away from the term fajin as it seems to be a term that can mean different things to different people. I am currently learning from someone who has some pretty decent skill, and have some direct experience with this sort of thing of which I speak, so I am not just speaking theoretically here. I prefer not to discuss details of that too much however as it can really seem to set some people off. Some things just have to be experienced to be fully appreciated.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Iskote

[zerostao]

thanks for the link. no worries.

[PLB]

Well, Chi dragon may be agreeing with you afer his own fashion.

Scott Meredith is an interesting cat.

I look at it on the level of who I meet in China Town and the rest of this NYC.

Everybody I meet who trains enough has stuff.

The rest, not so much.

 

So I train more.

[Iskote]

I was just reading through Scott Meredith's translation of Li Yaxuan's (Yang Chen Fu's student) "35 points on push hands", and Scott left out point # 20, saying it revealed too much of the central or key points, and Scott wanted to keep it to himself. What the heck??? He also omitted translating another section on the 'Song of Hand to Hand Combat' from the text.

 

Anyway, here is just one of the many interesting points from this text:

 

"26. Whether you are practicing the form or working on issuing energy, everything depends on total relaxation of your body. Otherwise you wont be able to move freely. Only with relaxation will the qi energy instantly follow your mind and intention, resulting in the partner or opponent being blasted out before he even realizes whats happening. You can imagine how light, quick and perfectly timed your action will be. This comes from total relaxation and softness, otherwise you wont get the skill.

 

To be able to issue energy, you must first have listening energy and skill. This depends entirely on sensitivity in your hands, the foundation of which is your daily practice of the form. Without this foundation, you will have insufficient listening energy. Listening energy is a function of perceptual sensitivity, and issuing energy relies on dan tian cultivation, and the spine. Issuing energy depends on using your dan tian energy to muster the energy of your entire body. When you are not issuing energy, your body is insubstantial, but when you do issue energy you must

be rooted and stably grounded.

..."

 

And lots more interesting comments in this text...

Edited August 18, 2013 by Iskote

[PLB]

Yes, that sort of thing.

[Iskote]

Yes, that sort of thing.

[Starjumper]

I was asking about meditations you recommend but also would like to know about a fast powerful path. Whatever you wish to share.

 

This isn't really the right thread for it. What I know of as a fast path contains many hundreds of meditations and techniques which are also meditational, many of which build upon each other, and the focus is entirely on cultivating chi power. Every meditation and exercise is always the high energy version of the commonly known ones, and there are many that are not commonly known. They are also super concentrated, working on as many things as possible at once, for example most of the exercises provide stretching, strengthening, meditation, energy work, Jedi type training, agility and balance training, as well as providing a 'hidden' training in the way of moving in the most deadly manner for self defense.

 

If a practice is not super concentrated as I have described above, and contain thousands of techniques, then it will be slow and innefficient as a spiritual practice. So what is fast, hmmm? Well a little while after I started with my teacher he told me I would achieve enlightenment in five years. The next day I saw him and he had changed his mind. He said it would take ten years because there are so many distractions and stress in modern day life. However, he was right the first time, it took five years. Of course to use the word enlightenment is confusing because most practitioners of Eastern spirituality, particularlty Buddhists, have a very distorted view of what ithat is.

 

Until then, the best meditation for spiritual growth, if we're just talking about one, would be Zen style meditation, which come to Zen via Taoism. Horse stance is, as far as I'm concerned, a higher power version of the many zen type postures, with the standard Buddhist Zen posture being the weakest, energy wise. Horse stance only works as a zen style if the hands are turned to just the right position.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Starjumper

[Green Tiger]

Yes, I'm Starjumper7, thanks for the welcome. I agree with your points, as tai chi is meditational it can lead to some spiritual growth and maturity (I guess), maybe that depends on the teacher. Of course it takes a bit of emotional maturity for a person to be able to practice tai chi in the first place. My main point was that there are other, more dedicated, spiritual cultivation systems that can work much faster than tai chi, however I agree that tai chi is more suitable for most people.

 

I never considered doing tai chi without focusing on some aspect of the form since it has endless depth and there seems to be always some aspect of movement that can be further explored.

 

 

Horse stance only works as a zen style if the hands are turned to just the right position.

 

For what it's worth...

 

On his Tai Chi and Chi Kung videos, Jerry Alan Johnson says that his teacher (not sure which one he is referring to) told him that moving meditation is 1000 times more powerful than sitting meditation, but only if done with proper posture. He said the problem is, very few people practice with correct posture.

 

*shrug* I'm pretty sure I don't practice with perfect posture, so I augment my moving meditation with standing and sitting meditations. If I only do moving meditation, my energy starts to get agitated. Stillness really calms and clears for me.

[Starjumper]

Interesting, thanks. I forgot to add, that after we did the moving exercises for an hour or two, or more, we would do sitting and standing meditation. Sitting is required as part of the formula and it doesn't need to be a high energy posture, particularly if the moving parts were high energy. It is best to do sitting meditation after moving because it takes advantage of the energy generated by the moving.