Trying to find out who these gods are...

[The Observer]

From a simple search, I've found that he is considered a protector of dharma temples for Buddhists, and a subduer of demons in Taoism. Seems to be a historical figure basically used as an archetype for these roles.

 

If there's a fight going on, you might not want it going on right above your head when your sleeping, unless maybe there seems to be one already.

 

I think I've seen shrines to him at entrances.

 

Yeah man I also came across that info online, additionally I also saw that it is apparently disrespectful to have one in your bedroom so I ended up putting him on a bookcase next to my door, sort of like a sentry.

 

"On a different note if anyone happens to know about Feng Shui is it bad to have Guan Yu standing right above my head while I sleep?"

 

Answer = Only if he needs the bathroom.

 

Lmao I better not sleep with my mouth open.

 

Here's a story regarding statues of Deities. One time I went to eat at a Chinese restaurant with a group of friends. The restaurant was decorated with statues of what appeared to be possibly taoist deities. These statues were about a foot and a half to two feet high or so and were made of bronze or brass, as I recall, and were sitting in alcoves built into the walls in the restaurant, and the alcoves were sealed over by panes of glass. We noticed the statues because they looked antique and some of them were partially turned inwards to different degrees towards the back of the alcoves, instead of facing forward, and one statue was turned almost fully inward with the back of the statue facing outward, instead of the front of the statue facing outward. We asked the owner of the restaurant why the statues were turned inward like that and she said that she had originally placed the statues all facing to the front, but slowly over time the statues had turned inward like that. She said the statues originated from temples, (I think temples in China). I suppose that if the restaurant was not on a really solid foundation or had a floor that was inclined to bounce and vibrate that vibrations over time might have made the statues turn, but the statues were not small and were made of bronze or brass, so the statues probably had a fair bit of weight to them. Anyway, that's the story.

 

Damn that's crazy. I coulda swore one of my statues kept doing that....could be all in my head though. This story brings Robert the Doll to mind.

[flowing hands]

Let me give some really concrete advice here. DO NOT keep statues of Immortals or Gods in your home or anywhere else! They are usually only kept in Temples where someone like me will invite the said Immortal to enter them in to complete trance and then the Immortal will bless the statue. It then is what is termed as 'open eye'. If you look on my vid on the inside of my Temple I have used images. Above each image is a blessing written by the Immortal Master's. Once written, the image is 'open eye'. Statues that are not blessed can attract the presence of evil, which sometimes enter into the statue and live there enjoying the admiration of the human keepers while all the time using its influence to do harm on those humans or other animals that may be present. If you want to keep a statue then obtain a 'amulet against evil', drawn by a shaman, not one that is written by an ordinary person. A shaman will beg their Immortal Master to draw it and invest power into it. Place this above your door to your house and then it should be ok.

 

If you can obtain the old brushes ( I do have some from nearly thirty years of drawing) from a shaman, which have been used to draw amulets. These can be placed above a door and will act in the same way.

Edited August 22, 2012 by flowing hands

[Walker]

I'm not sure it's the most trivial matter. I am not an expert, but this is also the first I have heard of the Three Pure Ones and Fu-Lu-Shou being one and the same. Although there is indeed plenty variation in how the pantheon is ordered, interpreted, and observed in Daoism, great attention is paid to the study of the Immortals by some Daoists, especially ritual masters, a fact Saso's book on Master Chuang provides ample English-language evidence for. There is nothing wrong with seeking clarity here--for some practitioners, it may be key. Taomeow, seeing as you offered, please let us know where we can find evidence supporting your assertion. With all due respect, an English-speaking tour guide in Mainland China is not likely to be a great source, for numerous reasons, not the least of which being that very, very, very few modern Chinese well-understand Daoism, including those who are paid to talk about it; futhermore, bullshitting rather than saying "I don't know" is an incredibly pervasive bad habit in this country. At any rate, I would like to chase up the idea. Thanks.

 

Regarding keeping a statue over your bed: traditionally, shrines are not created in bedrooms if this can be avoided, as people tend to conduct behaviors marked by heavy yin qi in their bedrooms, namely sex and masturbation, as well as heavy emoting and expulsion of sick qi. Unless you never engage in these behaviors and you have no other place to put your statue, you should probably consider another location. If you can only install a shrine in your bedroom, you could try a makeshift solution by finding a way to cover the statue at appropriate times. By all means do not place it at the foot of your bed. Regarding over the head, I am not sure.

 

Brock Silvers' book The Taoist Manual contains detailed instructions for preparing home shrines; its instructions are more or less the same as what my teacher teaches, and are far from simple. What Flowing Hands says may bear truth for the general public; if you intend to install a proper shrine in your home, it is advised to make observances every single day, even when you are on the road.

 

Sometimes innocently having a statue in the home for personal enjoyment can cause trouble; I know a Daoist priest whose temple is full of objects whose qi was not appropriate for the qi of the people who once kept them in their homes, and therefore caused illness, misfortune, etc.; most of the objects are religious statuary. Some have also said that improperly cared-for religious statuary can become the homes for ghosts, though I have not heard a source I trust say as much.

 

A final thought: if you have innocently put a statue in the "wrong" place or conducted "inappropriate" behaviors in front of one, one can rectify the mistake, send sincere apologies from the heart, and then go on with life. The qi of the Immortals is, at the end of the day, great enough to resolve all contradictions!

Edited August 23, 2012 by Walker

[Taomeow]

I'm not sure it's the most trivial matter. I am not an expert, but this is also the first I have heard of the Three Pure Ones and Fu-Lu-Shou being one and the same. Although there is indeed plenty variation in how the pantheon is ordered, interpreted, and observed in Daoism, great attention is paid to the study of the Immortals by some Daoists, especially ritual masters, a fact Saso's book on Master Chuang provides ample English-language evidence for. There is nothing wrong with seeking clarity here--for some practitioners, it may be key. Taomeow, seeing as you offered, please let us know where we can find evidence supporting your assertion. With all due respect, an English-speaking tour guide in Mainland China is not likely to be a great source, for numerous reasons, not the least of which being that very, very, very few modern Chinese well-understand Daoism, including those who are paid to talk about it; futhermore, bullshitting rather than saying "I don't know" is an incredibly pervasive bad habit in this country. At any rate, I would like to chase up the idea. Thanks.

 

 

The reason for the disagreement may be historic -- I think we have earliest taoism pitched against much later modifications. (This has been the crux of my disagreements with He Who Can't Be Named in the past too -- I'm a digger-upper of the earliest, un-influenced by Buddhism and Christianity, non-mutated, deeply shamanic in its roots, proto-taoism and taoism proper, taoism the way it was before institutional use in the service of assorted bureacracies and general brainwashing purposes which is what any institutionalized religion amounts to.) So, in the early taoism, stars and constellations always played a most important role and abstract philosophical ideas, none at all. Stars and constellations were deified -- pretty much all the most important deities were thought of as Star Gods, not just the three that still retain the label today, but scores and scores of them. And the highest gods of the taoist pantheon were without question actual stars that dwelled in different parts of the sky. Some of it got lost and reinterpreted later; some remained. E.g., I've seen taoist priests' robes in museums (don't know if they still wear this kind) showing some of the most

important stars and constellations worshiped in Taoism. In the center of the robe, 28 dots representing the 28 Lunar Mansions: constellations through which the moon passes during its rotation of the earth. These constellations played a vital role in Chinese astrology; a different deity governed each one. Above these constellations are three gold dots representing a group of stars called the Three Terraces. These stars, near the Northern Dipper (Big Dipper), represent what the ancient Chinese considered the most important part of the sky and the most important star deities. The much later reinterpretation of these highest deities as the Three Pure Ones who took on abstract attributes instead of the astrologically sound Star Gods they've been for millennia was part of the "mongrelization" and "pidginization" of taoism as it was losing its pragmatic, scientific (i.e. astrological, alchemical and magical) slant inherited from shamanism, replacing them with religious dogma and empty ritual.

[YMWong]

I'm a digger [...]

 

 

 

YM

[Taomeow]

The picture would be apt if I ever attempted digging into your mind, YM, but did I ever?..

[RyanO]

flowing hands and Walker,

 

Since you two seem more learned/advanced than me what I have to say might be moot. But it seems like your views are old world and superstitious. I say this having statues of Kuan Yin and Buddha all over my place and big beautiful statues of the Three Pure Ones on my mantle, and have not had any negative experiences with ghosts. In fact, the presence of these statues has served to banish such unwanted influences.

 

Any being whose presence would require a holy man to beg for it, and any being that requires daily supplication, are not beings I would want to attract anyway. Ch. 25 of the Lotus Sutra says that Kuan Yin will aid anyone who calls on her with sincerity. Her compassion is bestowed as much on the humble sinner as the righteous holy man. The only blessing my statues have received is my own heartfelt appreciation.

 

I admit my ignorance of spiritual matters. But if having statues of divinity in my place makes me susceptible to ghosts and sickness, but also serves as the faintest reminder of my highest destiny as a spiritual being, then I would gladly make such sacrifices as symbols of my devotion.

[Enishi]

So, in the early taoism, stars and constellations always played a most important role and abstract philosophical ideas, none at all. Stars and constellations were deified -- pretty much all the most important deities were thought of as Star Gods, not just the three that still retain the label today, but scores and scores of them. And the highest gods of the taoist 28 Lunar Mansions: constellations through which the moon passes during its rotation of the earth. These constellations played a vital role in Chinese astrology; a different deity governed each one. Above these constellations are three gold dots representing a group of stars called the Three Terraces. These stars, near the Northern Dipper (Big Dipper), represent what the ancient Chinese considered the most important part of the sky and the most important star deities. The much later reinterpretation of these highest deities as the Three Pure Ones who took on abstract attributes instead of the astrologically sound Star Gods they've been for millennia was part of the "mongrelization" and "pidginization" of taoism as it was losing its pragmatic, scientific (i.e. astrological, alchemical and magical) slant inherited from shamanism, replacing them with religious dogma and empty ritual.

 

This caught my eye, I've been exploring the same thing via the book 'Practice of Magical Evocation'. There are definitely powerful spirits associated with the planets and constellations. I do wonder though how much of that is the planets themselves or the vibration of the planets, which extends into non-locality. In that sense, there would be many celestial bodies throughout the universe that have a vibration similar to our moon and thus possibly the same, or similar spirits (oftentimes a combinaton of both for beings with a very refined, expansive awareness).

Edited August 25, 2012 by Enishi

[flowing hands]

flowing hands and Walker,

 

Since you two seem more learned/advanced than me what I have to say might be moot. But it seems like your views are old world and superstitious. I say this having statues of Kuan Yin and Buddha all over my place and big beautiful statues of the Three Pure Ones on my mantle, and have not had any negative experiences with ghosts. In fact, the presence of these statues has served to banish such unwanted influences.

 

 

Any being whose presence would require a holy man to beg for it, and any being that requires daily supplication, are not beings I would want to attract anyway. Ch. 25 of the Lotus Sutra says that Kuan Yin will aid anyone who calls on her with sincerity. Her compassion is bestowed as much on the humble sinner as the righteous holy man. The only blessing my statues have received is my own heartfelt appreciation.

 

I admit my ignorance of spiritual matters. But if having statues of divinity in my place makes me susceptible to ghosts and sickness, but also serves as the faintest reminder of my highest destiny as a spiritual being, then I would gladly make such sacrifices as symbols of my devotion.

 

 

 

Hello RyanO

 

It is not a definite that if you have a statue of a God that remains un-blessed you will be bothered by spiritual entities that are harmful. But it is a risk. Also having a blessed statue doesn't mean you have to bow and scrape to it every day, even though the Immortal can 'see' through the statue.

 

I have called upon Kuan Yin many times over the years, but I've got to say that the way the Immortals work is Wu wei. IE they don't interfere with the world unless it is absolutely necessary. What you have heard or read is not necessary the reality. The path of a God is not to interfere. Although a true heart will shine and attract the attention of the Immortals. But there again, like the Dao, Immortals treat all things equally.

[flowing hands]

 

The reason for the disagreement may be historic -- I think we have earliest taoism pitched against much later modifications. (This has been the crux of my disagreements with He Who Can't Be Named in the past too -- I'm a digger-upper of the earliest, un-influenced by Buddhism and Christianity, non-mutated, deeply shamanic in its roots, proto-taoism and taoism proper, taoism the way it was before institutional use in the service of assorted bureacracies and general brainwashing purposes which is what any institutionalized religion amounts to.) So, in the early taoism, stars and constellations always played a most important role and abstract philosophical ideas, none at all. Stars and constellations were deified -- pretty much all the most important deities were thought of as Star Gods, not just the three that still retain the label today, but scores and scores of them. And the highest gods of the taoist 28 Lunar Mansions: constellations through which the moon passes during its rotation of the earth. These constellations played a vital role in Chinese astrology; a different deity governed each one. Above these constellations are three gold dots representing a group of stars called the Three Terraces. These stars, near the Northern Dipper (Big Dipper), represent what the ancient Chinese considered the most important part of the sky and the most important star deities. The much later reinterpretation of these highest deities as the Three Pure Ones who took on abstract attributes instead of the astrologically sound Star Gods they've been for millennia was part of the "mongrelization" and "pidginization" of taoism as it was losing its pragmatic, scientific (i.e. astrological, alchemical and magical) slant inherited from shamanism, replacing them with religious dogma and empty ritual.

 

 

What you say I would agree with. Before the invention of religious Taoism, Shamanism was the culture and belief of Taoism. Cultivation of 'Star' power was common practice and belief in the Gods of the constellations were paramount in ancient times.

Even today we cultivate various star powers and worship the Gods that reside there. These are different to the Immortals in the Heavenly void. Star Gods live among the constellations, although there are some star Gods that live in human spirit form like the Star of long life, in the Heavenly void. There are many Gods that exist that people have never heard of, many live among the stars and are not from human or Earth born entities.

[Taomeow]

This caught my eye, I've been exploring the same thing via the book 'Practice of Magical Evocation'. There are definitely powerful spirits associated with the planets and constellations. I do wonder though how much of that is the planets themselves or the vibration of the planets, which extends into non-locality. In that sense, there would be many celestial bodies throughout the universe that have a vibration similar to our moon and thus possibly the same, or similar spirits (oftentimes a combinaton of both for beings with a very refined, expansive awareness).

 

I guess (correction: not just "guess," I've seen some of it in an "altered state") at some level of existence a vibration and an entity are interchangeable and the "proficient" among them may take the form of their choice if they choose to interact with mortals. There's many such stories in taoist mythology, and not only. A star can be "just a star" and a planet, just a planet -- you can study their "physical" properties (or whatever passes for "physical" between the extent of it all our unrefined senses and our unrefined technology can grasp between them) and miss out on all their "other-dimensional," "other-manifestational" properties. Or you can personify the hell out of it, make a statue of a wise elderly deity and believe that that's what it actually looks like at all times and for all purposes, and not recognize it at all in a tidal pull, in the pull of a superstring, in the manner in which the core of a collapsing star acquires an iron "heart." But you are on to something better I think, something more real. When we are dealing with enormities, it's a grave (though very human) mistake to reduce them to what we've been trained, coached, or told to perceive. We better believe it there's more, more than more -- different... and have respect.

[Taomeow]

What you say I would agree with. Before the invention of religious Taoism, Shamanism was the culture and belief of Taoism. Cultivation of 'Star' power was common practice and belief in the Gods of the constellations were paramount in ancient times.

Even today we cultivate various star powers and worship the Gods that reside there. These are different to the Immortals in the Heavenly void. Star Gods live among the constellations, although there are some star Gods that live in human spirit form like the Star of long life, in the Heavenly void. There are many Gods that exist that people have never heard of, many live among the stars and are not from human or Earth born entities.

 

Yes. In fact, the majority don't concern themselves with human affairs. It's been my understanding for a while that the "feng shui of the celestial realm" is similar to that of the earthly realm (as above, so below) -- i.e. the overall "landscape and climate" take precedence over the features of the house, the position of the house over the layout of the interior, the layout of the interior over the placement of the furniture. Most religious systems are concerned with the placement of the furniture, so to speak. They will choose a big cupboard that seems very prominent and important inside their house, put all their valuables in one of the drawers, and announce that it's the Supreme and Highest deity. But it isn't. The supreme and highest isn't even the continent on which that cupboard sits -- it's just that they are familiar with the cupboard, but not with the view from beyond the void.

[RyanO]

Hello RyanO

 

It is not a definite that if you have a statue of a God that remains un-blessed you will be bothered by spiritual entities that are harmful. But it is a risk. Also having a blessed statue doesn't mean you have to bow and scrape to it every day, even though the Immortal can 'see' through the statue.

 

I have called upon Kuan Yin many times over the years, but I've got to say that the way the Immortals work is Wu wei. IE they don't interfere with the world unless it is absolutely necessary. What you have heard or read is not necessary the reality. The path of a God is not to interfere. Although a true heart will shine and attract the attention of the Immortals. But there again, like the Dao, Immortals treat all things equally.

 

My experience, besides what I've heard or read, is that the Lotus Sutra is correct when it says Kuan Yin will always come when called. By this I mean I can feel her presence.

 

My understanding is a little different than yours concerning the actions of gods or immortals. I cannot believe that Kuan Yin would sit back to abide by wu wei when confronted with the suffering of another, especially in cases of extreme abuse. Rather, I believe she is limited in her ability to help such beings, perhaps because of the laws of reality inhibit her power to intervene.

 

Maybe this is saying something similar to you, but I think it is important distinction. If a human who is indifferent when confronted with suffering is deemed cold-hearted, a god would be much more so.

 

Regarding the statues, perhaps I will get them blessed if I ever get the chance. Until then, I'll take the risk.

Edited August 27, 2012 by RyanO

[flowing hands]

My experience, besides what I've heard or read, is that the Lotus Sutra is correct when it says Kuan Yin will always come when called. By this I mean I can feel her presence.

 

My understanding is a little different than yours concerning the actions of gods or immortals. I cannot believe that Kuan Yin would sit back to abide by wu wei when confronted with the suffering of another, especially in cases of extreme abuse. Rather, I believe she is limited in her ability to help such beings, perhaps because of the laws of reality inhibit her power to intervene.

 

Maybe this is saying something similar to you, but I think it is important distinction. If a human who is indifferent when confronted with suffering is deemed cold-hearted, a god would be much more so.

 

Regarding the statues, perhaps I will get them blessed if I ever get the chance. Until then, I'll take the risk.

 

Sadly this is the difference between Taoists and Buddhists; Buddhists believe that anything written, or anything they are told in a sutra is true. So it is of many religions. So it is written that Kuan Yin will come when called. Why? Because you beleive she will and your mind tells you there is a difference after you have recited her name? Beware of the power of the mind! Kuan Yin maybe the Goddess of Mercy, but she is bound by the Universal wisdom and truth that the world is ruled by not interfering. If she helps you, to be fair she would have to help other people also. That means everyone and everything that lives.

 

The world is ruled by not interfering, whenever I have begged her to come and she has entered my body I have asked her for advice and help, which she has given, but it is of my own practice that the help has been achieved. She has not swept away all my troubles for that would not be fair to you, or anyone else, or to anything else. She fully understands that to live is to suffer, to suffer is to have real understanding, to have real understanding is on the path to realization. Why would she stop true realization by taking away a persons suffering, when this is part of the great process of realization leading to one day enlightenment?

[RyanO]

Flowing hands,

 

You might be right about my experiences, that it is all mental. This would actually be a correct approach in Buddhism, but it seems you don't have much respect for that religion.

 

Despite what you say, quite a bit of suffering on my part has been relieved through meditating on Kuan Yin. Even if this is all from myself, I'm sure the 'real' Kuan Yin would approve.

 

That you claim to have been taught by immortals and commune with the 'real' being Kuan Yin I of course find fascinating. From what I can see so do many on this board, some being more skeptical of your claims. It's hard for me to say either way.

 

You surely speak with great confidence: maybe this is a trait required by shamans. If everything you say is true, I would still encourage you to be a little more tactful in your dialogue. People will naturally be very skeptical of your fantastic claims and you have to adjust for that.

 

Anyways, best to you.

[flowing hands]

Flowing hands,

 

You might be right about my experiences, that it is all mental. This would actually be a correct approach in Buddhism, but it seems you don't have much respect for that religion.

 

Despite what you say, quite a bit of suffering on my part has been relieved through meditating on Kuan Yin. Even if this is all from myself, I'm sure the 'real' Kuan Yin would approve.

 

That you claim to have been taught by immortals and commune with the 'real' being Kuan Yin I of course find fascinating. From what I can see so do many on this board, some being more skeptical of your claims. It's hard for me to say either way.

 

You surely speak with great confidence: maybe this is a trait required by shamans. If everything you say is true, I would still encourage you to be a little more tactful in your dialogue. People will naturally be very skeptical of your fantastic claims and you have to adjust for that.

 

Anyways, best to you.

 

"Truthful words are not necessarily beautiful,

and very often, beautiful words are not truthful".

 

(Li Erh Xian Shi Chapter 81)

 

I am glad to hear that your suffering was relieved. Peoples skepticism is due totally to their lack of understanding and experience. A lot on this board have never had a real teacher or experienced the teachings of a Daoist master. Alot on this board have never experienced real shamanism nor received real teachings, only from books or internet articles. Or they have been on courses. One of the reasons why I bother to come on this board after nearly 30 years of teaching from my Divine masters is to give a real understanding as was taught to me. So I try to give people a real understanding of the DDJ that was taught to me. In this way it is an un-corrupted source, it is a gift that people don't expect to get in this day and age, so they are skeptical. It is a gift because of what is to come. It is a gift because I hope to help people to a true understanding of themselves and the world around them.

 

Respect for religion comes from the resulting factors of its affect on the people and the environment that it has. If religion suppresses people, misleads them, causes wars and does not hold life as sacred, then why should anyone have respect for that religion? Does any other life form follow a religion? No. Do life forms need religion? No. They need the Dao to live together as was dictated by the environment and evolution. What is written by men or women is not necessarily true and has been used to wield power over peoples and lands. Religion is an invention of humans not of the Dao. It is a very strong political force that can force people to believe and do things that are against the Dao. Whatever goes against the Dao will never last.

 

Having a true understanding, will lead to a far better world and greater happiness and contentment.

I talk very straightforwardly, so this may come over on a board as 'arrogant' etc. but if you were to meet me in person you would see that I was not that sort of person at all.

 

Being a student of Gods puts me in rather a unique position and I have been tutored for all these years to have great understanding about spiritual matters. If I don't know about something whether it is true or not then I don't say. If the Immortal master has taught me something that I know about and have great experience in then I will. I will speak with confidence.

 

Being Tactful as you say is for those who know nothing of the Dao, who have very limited understanding.

 

"When the Dao is present in the heart, you will act naturally,

your actions and speech, may seem awkward and blunt to lesser men.

Your views of the world may seem stupid also".

 

I would rather appear as a blunt idiot than a soft diplomatic sycophant.

 

Kuan Yin was once a man and then he turned himself into a woman because the female principle is one that can be seen as a helpful and compassionate symbol. The Buddhism that I would follow comes from her. When addressing her or begging for help from her we say Kuan Yin Neung Neung or 'grand mother'. Her teachings are called 'The pure path of knowledge' There are four guiding principles. These principles I followed and still follow to some extent today as they are at one with the Dao. So I have great respect for Kuan Yin, but not for human written words that could be true but could quite easily be false.

 

Your sutra that was written by a man says that Kuan Yin will come to help whenever anyone calls her name, I have told you what I understand about this and I wouldn't say anything If I didn't know!

 

Before I became a shaman I went to Kuan Yins temple in Malaysia and I prostrated myself before her 'blessed' image. I begged her for help and shook the yarrow talks and threw the wooden shapes to get my answer and it was right. I have never seen a foot long yarrow stalk come out of a cup on its own before, as if an invisible hand had pulled it out and selected the right one out of the pack. It was amazing!!! It was the right answer to my prayer. So it is true that if you are sincere in your heart that she will help you, but what I said before about the mind and the need to help others also still stands.

 

Good luck