"All CLAN AFFILIATIONS (not people) are treated like STRAW DOGS""

[Harmonious Emptiness]

This is too important and prevalent an error to bury in the DDJ section so I have put it here.

 

In Chapter Five of the Dao De Jing, there is this 姓 character which is usually translated as "people" but actually means: "surname / one's family name / a clan / a family / people"

 

以thus, 百 numerous, 姓 surnames, 為 acted upon, 芻狗 straw dogs

 

In the chapters preceding this one, Lao Tzu speaks to errors of trying to stick out and be comptetive rather than working for the collective effort.

 

What he is saying here is that "The sage doesn't judge by family lineages" (姓 is a picture of "woman" on the left and "birth" on the right, as ancient Chinese society was matrilineal)

 

Here is my translation from the beginning to this line:

 

Chapter Five

 

01 天地不仁,

tiān dì bù rén,

Heaven and Earth do not distinguish between one man and another

 

 

02 以萬物為芻狗。

yǐ wàn wù wéi chú gǒu。.

Therefore, the myriad creatures are treated like straw dogs

 

 

03 聖人不仁,

shèng rén bù rén,

The wise do not show their favour

 

04 以百姓為芻狗。

yǐ bái xìng wéi chú gǒu。

Thus, all the clan affiliations and names are treated like straw dogs

 

05 天地之間,

tiān dì zhī jiān,

There is Heaven, and there is Earth, and thus there is the shining space in between them

Edited December 20, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

SO! I HOPE THIS CLEARS SOME THINGS UP ABOUT AMORALITY OF SAGELINESS!

 

If you have an open mind and open heart with room for corrections and willing to learn Chinese and Classics, then, I am willing to share. Otherwise, I will remain silence and let you continue to believe what you think it is not erroneous.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If you have an open mind and open heart with room for corrections and willing to learn Chinese and Classics, then, I am willing to share. Otherwise, I will remain silence and let you continue to believe what you think it is not erroneous.

 

Hey man go for it! I'm sure you have your reasons for reading it the way you do and I would surely like to hear them!

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Chapter Five

 

01 天地不仁,

tiān dì bù rén,

Heaven and Earth do not distinguish between one man and another

 

 

02 以萬物為芻狗。

yǐ wàn wù wéi chú gǒu。.

Therefore, the myriad creatures are treated like straw dogs

 

 

03 聖人不仁,

shèng rén bù rén,

The wise do not show their favour

 

04 以百姓為芻狗。

yǐ bái xìng wéi chú gǒu。

Thus, all the clan affiliations and names are treated like straw dogs

 

 

 

So I double checked why I translated the line before this one as "favour" rather than "kindness." When it reads "The Sage is not kind" then of course it looks more like he is talking about the clans rather than just the names.

 

However, I see that I am not the only one to look at 仁 as more than just kindness, as it shows one man relating to other people, referring to "the relationship between man and his fellow men."

 

(btw, I admit I probably got a bit carried away in dropping the OP like that)

 

So, I see why most translate 仁 the way they do, but still then why could it not mean something more in line to the chapters leading up to Ch. Five?

 

Could it not be concerning the time of Lao Tzu when it would have been considered very rude not to show appropriate respect based on the power of particular clans and families? So, "the sage does not worry about social interaction, and treats family names as straw dogs / ignores the expected courtesies to powerful clans and families."

 

This seems to be more in line to the meaning of the teaching.

[ChiDragon]

以thus, 百 numerous, 姓 surnames, 為 acted upon, 芻狗 straw dogs

 

百: hundred; a numerical unit.

姓: surnames,

 

Again, one must learning the compound characters in order to read Chinese to begin with. If one doesn't know the usage of the compound characters, then one cannot read or interpret Chinese or classic correctly. Let's look at the compound characters 百姓.

 

百姓 literal translation is hundred surnames. It is customary that the Chinese often use numbers to imply as "many". Those numbers are such as nine(九), hundred(百), thousand (千), and ten thousand(萬).

 

The logical meaning for people is 百姓(bái xìng) because people have names. "Many surnames" which implies the "people" in a kingdom. Therefore, 百姓(bái xìng) became the linguistic meaning for "people" in the Chinese language.

 

以(letting) 百 姓(the people) 為(as) straw dogs(芻狗).

 

Logical English:

聖人不仁

以百姓為芻狗.

A sage has no mercy,

Treating the people as straw dogs.

 

The two phrases are linked together by saying that:

A ruler(sage) is impartial because he treats everybody equally and shows no nepotism. Before the law, everybody treated equally because the law is impartial and has no mercy.

 

 

PS...

If you want a better explanation about Chapter 5, please go see my posts in the Tao Te Ching section.

Edited August 24, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Here are the points I would make about this chapter:

1. Bu Ren (不仁) - The paramount importance of Ren (仁) in Confucius thinking cannot be ignored. The five relationships are based on it. It requires physical interaction. It is one of the most important virtues since it originates from the idea of one person taking care of another person (think any of the five relationships or ancestor worship).

 

Laozi is saying that Heaven and Earth are NOT this way (Bu Ren); without regard to relationships or man-made virtues.

 

2. Chu Guo (芻狗) - I have read in the Xiang'er Manuscript commentary, which is one of the earliest ones on the Lao Zi text, that it was a custom in Huang Di's time to hang them (chu guo) on the door as a reminder to the people; later it was used as a ceremonial piece, then trampled and discarded to prevent the evil Qi it absorbed being used again. My opinion is that the way straw dogs is interpreted in the latter sense is wrong as Lao Zi would often speak of the earlier sages and thus want to reference Huang Di's use of the chu guo.

 

3. Bai Xing (百 姓) - 100 surnames. Where did these even originate??? From Huang Di era... In very ancient times, the common folks/people did not have surnames only the sage-king and his family had them. But to be fair, it should be reckoned that surnames originate from their own pictogram: A woman and a child (birth); a matriarchal society. The most ancient surnames all had a female character part. Since the sage-king was able to bestow on his own family a surname, they took charge of different parts of the tribal land; in later times, as a people were claimed to another they often took the name of the surname of which previously ruled them. This custom was followed for a very long time since surnames where not openly given to all people. This meant that at one time, only the nobility had surnames and explains why some translate the lines in this.

 

Getting back to history: When Huang DI defeated Yan Di (some say his brother), as recorded in the Shi Ji, this accounted for the combined tribe which was considered the HuaXia people (Xia=Xia dynasty). Later, Huang Di successfully fought the last remaining, warring Jiu li tribe and these three tribes were now consolidated and considered the '100 surnamed people'. But the fact is, this consolidation by defeat meant slaves by consolidation; defeated people rushed to the conquering tribe to avoid elimination. So anciently, bai xing also meant the owners of names; slave-owners... but this small point, while little understood, is also of little consequence...

Edited August 24, 2012 by dawei

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

Logical English:

聖人不仁

以百姓為芻狗.

A sage has no mercy,

Treating the people as straw dogs.

 

The two phrases are linked together by saying that:

A ruler(sage) is impartial because he treats everybody equally and shows no nepotism. Before the law, everybody treated equally because the law is impartial and has no mercy.

 

 

So in the end, you're saying the same thing as I did, though somehow possibly taking a different route to the same meaning.

I guess the moral of the story (as a translator) is that the context helps to read the words, as the same meaning you have here managed to come out of the same four characters for me.

 

It sounded like you were going to give me some reasons as to why I was wrong, but you actually agree with the overall meaning nonetheless.

 

The problem, and why I made this topic, is that very few have ever translated this beyond the "logical English" meaning, and this has resulted in some incredibly inconsistent ideas based on this one line.

 

So, thanks for your [eventual] support for this point Chi!.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

@ Dawei

 

Thanks for your contribution as well. I think that adds more weight to the meaning that the line was really saying "the sage is not concerned with a persons titles, much as Heaven is not concerned with status of humans being "above" the rest of living things."

[ChiDragon]

1. So in the end, you're saying the same thing as I did, though somehow possibly taking a different route to the same meaning.

I guess the moral of the story (as a translator) is that the context helps to read the words, as the same meaning you have here managed to come out of the same four characters for me.

 

2. It sounded like you were going to give me some reasons as to why I was wrong, but you actually agree with the overall meaning nonetheless.

 

1. Sorry, I didn't see anything in your post was conveying the same message.

 

2. There was really too much to say without any undesirable embarrassment on our parts, thus I decided to hold back on my criticism. Perhaps I had made too many enemies already.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

以(letting) 百 姓(the people) 為(as) straw dogs(芻狗).

 

Logical English:

聖人不仁

以百姓為芻狗.

A sage has no mercy,

Treating the people as straw dogs.

 

The two phrases are linked together by saying that:

A ruler(sage) is impartial because he treats everybody equally and shows no nepotism. Before the law, everybody treated equally because the law is impartial and has no mercy.

 

 

Is this not what you said? Did you not say what you meant or meant what you said?

[Marblehead]

Oh no!!! I am a straw dog!!!

[ChiDragon]

Is this not what you said? Did you not say what you meant or meant what you said?

 

What did you say that was similar to that.....???

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Okay, so you said:

 

The two phrases are linked together by saying that:

A ruler(sage) is impartial because he treats everybody equally and shows no nepotism. Before the law, everybody treated equally because the law is impartial and has no mercy.

 

While I said (in order of appearance)

:

"The sage doesn't judge by family lineages"

 

04 以百姓為芻狗。

yǐ bái xìng wéi chú gǒu。

Thus, all the clan affiliations and names are treated like straw dogs

 

"Could it not be concerning the time of Lao Tzu when it would have been considered very rude not to show appropriate respect based on the power of particular clans and families? So, "the sage does not worry about social interaction, and treats family names as straw dogs / ignores the expected courtesies to powerful clans and families."

 

"the sage is not concerned with a person's titles, much as Heaven is not concerned with status of humans being "above" the rest of living things

[Marblehead]

Actually, you guys are on to a very interesting interpretation of these lines. I am enjoying reading the posts.

[RyanO]

Nice thread Harmonious. A good counterpoint to interpretations such as the following:

 

http://www.tao.org/tao.html#4

 

Therefore, Lao Tzu insists "the Sage is unkind," urging the Taoist to avoid the Siren call of Universal Love and instead embrace a mindset of harsh indifference towards all but a few loved ones. Enlightened self-interest would be the best way to describe this principle to modern sensibilities.

 

To me this seems quite un-enlightened.

[RyanO]

double post. might as well use this space to say I wish everyone who reads this ultimate happiness and freedom from suffering! universal love to all! that means you

Edited August 24, 2012 by RyanO

[ChiDragon]

"the sage is not concerned with a person's titles, much as Heaven is not concerned with status of humans being "above" the rest of living things

 

Okay, I had to read it a few times to get the gist of what you are saying. I'll have to settle it as an indirect translation....

Edited August 24, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Okay, I had to read it a few times to get the gist of what you are say. I'll have to settle it as an indirect translation....

 

Well, yes, because the direct/common/first glance translation is grossly misleading.. and fails to account for so many other things in the text, and culturual history. It really wasn't even that difficult to see that he wasn't talking about people but "names." It really bewilders me to see how common the error is given how contrary it is to the "train of thought" that is running through these chapters.

 

Anyways, I hope I haven't damaged anyone's reputation, including my own, in bringing this to light.

 

Thanks for your help Dawei and Chi Dragon.

 

Chi, even though you can be difficult (I think partially owing to our language difference), you are a good fire for me make sure the steel stood up to a blazing test

[ChiDragon]

Chi, even though you can be difficult (I think partially owing to our language difference), you are a good fire for me make sure the steel stood up to a blazing test

 

Yes, a language difference or problem indeed...!!!

 

百姓 is an ancient term for "people". I'm sorry. Your translation is very contradictory to the title of this thread.

 

 

PS...

A good fire will never stop burning. Thanks....

Edited August 25, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, a language difference or problem indeed...!!!

 

百姓 is an ancient term for "people". I'm sorry. Your translation is very contradictory to the title of this thread.

 

 

PS...

A good fire will never stop burning. Thanks....

 

Okay, while once again, as you said, the actual overall meaning is not isolated to this character meaning "people" but rather the status' between them. Thus, once again, it doesn't make sense (at least in English) of the meaning to merely say "the people are treated as straw dogs."

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Another way to help see this, is to look at it as though the Sage and Heaven are both like an child/infant. They do not see "the hundred families" as this that and the other, they are just people.

 

So the phrase is to say "This idea, separation into "one hundred," is of no significance (to the Sage). Under heaven we are one family."

 

When I put this as "The sage treats titles and names as straw dogs." this is just the easist way to say this using words within the text while conveying the correct meaning.

 

As Chuang Tzu says "though expected to bear gifts when meeting someone of great authority, the best gift you can bring them is Dao" ie., just being a real person, and not paying obsequious obeisance as customarily done by officials and peasants.

 

"Heaven is not "socially appropriate", and so treats all creatures the same (as straw dogs). The Sage is not dictated by social conventions, and so treats the separation of people in to "100 families" as a ashes."

 

仁 means kindness, but signifies how man relates to other people. To relate them according to "social conventions" would be considered virtuous and friendly by most, or fake by others. Generally, it is considered kind and perhaps self-sacrificing as the way to ensure social harmony.

 

So Heaven and Earth do not consider socially appropriate behavior,

"Heaven, Earth, not, 仁"

"Wise, man, not, 仁"

 

Chuang Tzu, who quite obviously gained much inspiration from the Dao De Jing or at least it's existing philosphies, talked a whole lot about "being real" instead of just following conventions as expected by Confucianists. For me, the Chapter "The Old Fisherman" is one of the best chapters on this way.

 

I think these are linked like a stone bridge!....

 

 

EDIT:

Actually, "Wise, man, not, 仁" should just be "Wise, person, not, 仁" since 人 means person, and there are other characters for Man and Woman. 萬人 would be one way to say "all people."

Edited August 25, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[ChiDragon]

Okay, while once again, as you said, the actual overall meaning is not isolated to this character meaning "people" but rather the status' between them. Thus, once again, it doesn't make sense (at least in English) of the meaning to merely say "the people are treated as straw dogs."

 

When reading the Tao Te Ching, you must ask yourself. Am I going to read it in English thinking, Chinese thinking or read it as Classic...???

 

Obvious, the Tao Te Ching was written in Classic, then let's read it as Classic. There are certain rules one must follow in order to read it and interpret it correctly.

 

 

Thus, once again, it doesn't make sense (at least in English) of the meaning to merely say

"the people are treated as straw dogs."

 

Hey, do you think that make sense to a Chinese. Again, this is Classic Chinese. The Classics are written in a paradoxical way. Anyone can read it and doesn't make sense. That is the unique part of it. To understand it is a big challenge for someone who wants to learn to read it. Classic were written in metaphors just like a riddle.

 

In order to read it correctly, first of all, one must know the classic meaning of the terms and the punctuations at the right place. If 百姓 means "people", then it means "people", not "hundred names" even that's what the characters say. One just has to accept it as is. It you are treating it as "hundred names", then you might as well close the book and go copy somebody else mistranslation.

 

In order to interpret "the people are treated as straw dogs", one must know what are the characteristics of straw dogs. Why did LaoTze say such thing....??? We know LaoTze is a nice guy; but why did he say something that he didn't really mean it or it was meant something else ....??? It would be a big mistake to think what I want it to mean rather than what LaoTze meant. Therefore, please don't read it as modern Chinese nor English but Chinese Classic.

Edited August 25, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

EDIT:

Actually, "Wise, man, not, 仁" should just be "Wise, person, not, 仁" since 人 means person, and there are other characters for Man and Woman. 萬人 would be one way to say "all people."

 

仁(ren): benevolence; mercy

人(ren): people; human; person

 

You see the phonetics are play tricks on you. Now, I see why you say 仁(ren) as "man" in your OP. Thus, with the misunderstanding of one character will send your translation ten thousand miles away from the true meaning in the context.

 

PS...

Yes, I am difficult to deal with as you said but I have my legitimate reasons.

 

PPS...

萬人 would be one way to say "all people."

 

I know you got the idea from 萬物(all things). Unfortunately, 萬人 does not say "all people" but it means "ten thousand people" in this case. You see, this kind of things one has to know in advance for reading classic or Chinese. My suggestion to you is not to jump into the translation so hasty but study the Tao Te Ching objectively with an open mind just like Marblehead.

Edited August 25, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

We know LaoTze is a nice guy; but why did he say something that he didn't really mean it or it was meant something else ....???

 

The whole book was subtle in so many profound ways, that is part of the reason it is so well revered.

 

Also, to say this any more explicitly probably would have bordered on a declaration of war aginst the existing hierarchies.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

仁(ren): benevolence; mercy

人(ren): people; human; person

 

You see the phonetics are play tricks on you. Now, I see why you say 仁(ren) as "man" in your OP. Thus, with the misunderstanding of one character will send your translation ten thousand miles away from the true meaning in the context.

 

PS...

Yes, I am difficult to deal with as you said but I have my legitimate reasons.

 

PPS...

萬人 would be one way to say "all people."

 

I know you got the idea from 萬物(all things). Unfortunately, 萬人 does not say "all people" but it means "ten thousand people" in this case. You see, this kind of things one has to know in advance for reading classic or Chinese. My suggestion to you is not to jump into the translation so hasty but study the Tao Te Ching objectively with an open mind just like Marblehead.

 

1. Nowhere did I say 仁 = man.

 

2. "萬人 does not say "all people" but it means "ten thousand people"" Whatever, it mean 1000 thousand people. 人 means people.

 

Actually, the Classical Chinese character for all people/humanity is 人類 "human kind(category)." So, once again... why wouldn't he use that?

 

 

Also, Lao Tzu I think knew full well that his writing was important, and probably saw it outlasting this way of referring to humanity, also knowing that all of humanity is not merely these 100 families, no?

Edited August 25, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness