宁 Posted August 24, 2012 Think of it this way, you may admire Christianity as much as you want, but without baptism you're not a Christian! Not even if you have a Christian bumper sticker. Or Christian Bible. Or garnments. Or icons. Or attend a Christian Church. You can like Islam, but without official conversion you're just a fan! Just sayin' We're fans, how about that! E. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted August 24, 2012 I've been to every Tao concert ever 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Melanie Posted August 24, 2012 So your suggesting that without an arbitrary symbolic ritual that I could be wrong but I'm not aware of any becoming a Taoist rituals, we are not really Taoist but fans of Tao? Tao is a spiritual practice not a religion, it has no dogma so to be one you just need to believe and learn its basic practices and ideas. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2012 I have my Taoist fan with some Chinese characters written on it that I have no idea what they mean. But the fan works none-the-less. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 25, 2012 I didn't know daoism wanted to be in the club with christianity and islam... seems like daoists generally want to laugh at even buddhists for being too regimented and uptight. Hard to see them in the same light as the abrahamic trinity of bloodshed religions... i thought they tried religious daoism a thousand years ago in china and abandoned it almost immediately.. "the daoist church" i suppose that one could say that a person needs to be ordained in order to be a religious daoist tho i like the distinction between daoists and "laoists" but i think the truth about what makes a person officially a daoist lies somewhere in the middle, between having read the ddj and having been ordained in the church of dao but what do i know Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) well it seems my idea doesn't have many fans, haha. either way, it isn't my own, but belongs to daoists. - as for Tao being a spiritual practice, i couldn't agree more. please look into the prerequisites of starting that practice. - please do not rest your opinions on 'facts' provided by the scores of Chinese citizens that came to the West 'teaching the Dao', most of them are popular qigong students [at best] coming here to pose as masters, looking for any means of running away from poverty... they would tell you anything as long as you 'show them the money'. if you spend a while in China you'd know why they to that, and how gullible we are. - spiritual philosophy and Qi practice can and will have effects on the body-mind of many individuals, regardless of the race or where it stands on Earth. there is a difference, however, mainly because: a. the effects that appear don't neccesarely make couple with the concepts that you hear explained.. this is most important. how do you know that you are feeling what you are supposed to be feeling as a result of that practice? how do you know the effects that appear are positive, and don't indicate something like a side effect? how do you know it really relates to the theory? b. the natural progression of the practice is overlooked, and because of that, most of the western students have to piece it together from their own experience, or from comparisons with various unrelated systems of practice and belief. which isn't a bad thing per se, but does it make sense to go ahead on guesswork rather than know for certain, from an authentic source? i guess many of us don't really have a choice, and i certainly don't blame anyone for it. i'm just saying. perspective! - about that, perspective, it's the only point i'm trying to make with this thread. because we get fooled into things that we have huge expectations from them... we know many cases of people even becoming delusional, so where do we draw the line? if we keep the right perspective at the back of our mind, things like this will not happen. i'm in favour of being honest with ourselves. i knew the comparison with religions like Christianity and Islam would not go well on a forum that seems more into free thinking, however it seems that things are exactly the same everywhere. you need to be formally accepted, and in-line with the transmission of that system,, otherwise, we're just fans... wait a minute, is being a fan that bad?? haha Edited August 25, 2012 by 宁 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
adept Posted August 25, 2012 - as for Tao being a spiritual practice, i couldn't agree more. please look into the prerequisites of starting that practice. I'm not sure any prerequisites are needed to allow 'the mystery of mysteries' to enter one's life. Only to be like an empty vessel. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2012 Well, based only on the concept of "Tao", we all, all 7 billion of us, are Taoists; we are of Tao. Most of us just don't know it and possibly never will. Yes, to call oneself a "Laoist" is perhaps a 'purer' label to put on oneself. But then, do labels really matter? I would likely be more of a Chuangist than a Laoist but that's just me. Am I a Taoist? That question can be answered only by others, not by myself. Am I a fan of Lao Tzu? Sure I am. But I am also a fan of Nietzsche and Camus. Does the label matter? I think it is more at how we walk rather than how we talk. PS There are no mysteries, only a lack of understanding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 25, 2012 either way, it isn't my own, but belongs to daoists. religious daoists? cause some daoists aren't religious... there are siddhas and sages of great attainment and always have been, and none of them have ever had the slightest interest in being ordained. quite the opposite Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted August 25, 2012 It is very simple in fact. A (Medical) Doctor is such if he has followed a specific academic curriculum and has completed it with success. Then there are healers who are maybe very good at what they do, but they are not Doctors. When one is sick he can choose to get help from a healer or from a Doctor: a healer might be better than many doctors but it is only with a doctor that we are sure about having to do with somebody with a minimum standard knowledge of the subject. And of course medicine is where it is because of the medical (official) advancements and not thanks to the few good healers we have around. To be a Daoist one must be officially taught by a Daoist, who can pass a complete curriculum of knowledge which in turn was passed down (and evolved) thru generations of pratictioners. Through the transmission, the new pratictioners is introduced to the line of teachers before him and therefore he is "known in Heaven". Then there are people who might be spiritually good, many of them gain their insights through different means including Nature or even readings of Daoist-ish texts. While some of these people might again be very good at what they do, they certainly cannot be called daoists. In both cases, this real transmission is not a guarantee of success (which is in the hands of the pratictioner) but a precise road indication without which most people are bound to go astray. If one who has never been on a mountain and he wants to hike the Himalayas he can only do it with the help of a guide who has done that road before him, following him and his indications step by step. Trying the hike alone will lead most, if not all, to certain death. YM 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) okay, i get what you guys are saying, im not asking because i don't understand but my question is, specifically, are you talking about religious daoists? or alchemical daoists? a particular branch of organized daoists? which daoists in particular are the ones that hold the belief that everyone else is just a fan? why in the writings of lao and chuang do they not say "find ye a lineage" but instead just talk about closeness with dao as if anyone had access to it? edit: those siddhas and sages that i mention undoubtedly had teachers, masters, i agree that nobody stumbles upon the truth alone and unaided. i am only trying to clarify who holds these beliefs youre talking about. "daoists" just needs a little clarification. thank you. Edited August 25, 2012 by anamatva Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Well, based only on the concept of "Tao", we all, all 7 billion of us, are Taoists; we are of Tao. Most of us just don't know it and possibly never will. Yes, to call oneself a "Laoist" is perhaps a 'purer' label to put on oneself. But then, do labels really matter? I would likely be more of a Chuangist than a Laoist but that's just me. Am I a Taoist? That question can be answered only by others, not by myself. Am I a fan of Lao Tzu? Sure I am. But I am also a fan of Nietzsche and Camus. Does the label matter? I think it is more at how we walk rather than how we talk. PS There are no mysteries, only a lack of understanding. haha well by the same token all of us are Hebrew or Arabic, eh? it's written in the Bible, that's what God created i think it's silly to support an argument with the help of a text nobody knows anything for sure about, eh? some say the author of DDJ is collective, or DDJ itself an anthology.. re: the question about daoists, i'm pretty positive there's only one type, though contemporary people may say otherwise... what's wrong about being just a fan anyway? Edited August 25, 2012 by 宁 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted August 25, 2012 (edited) Sorry, double posting Edited August 25, 2012 by YMWong Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted August 25, 2012 but my question is, specifically, are you talking about religious daoists? or alchemical daoists? a particular branch of organized daoists? which daoists in particular are the ones that hold the belief that everyone else is just a fan? Daoists are simply Daoist, there are no "religious daoists" or "alchemical daoists", those are categories made up by those outside the tradition why in the writings of lao and chuang do they not say "find ye a lineage" but instead just talk about closeness with dao as if anyone had access to it? I don't know much about Christianity but I read that John baptized Jesus, but who baptized John? There is always a beginning, hopefully nobody dare to compare themselves to Laozi By the way, "Daoism" and therefore "Daoist" appeared as terminology well after the texts you mention which are not "the bible" of Daoism YM 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 25, 2012 what's wrong about being just a fan anyway? oh nothing at all that wasnt where i was coming from i dont even consider myself a daoist, not having teachers in that tradition i just thought you and YM were saying one had to be ordained or baptized in dao or something for it to be official and i wondered where you got that idea. I thought daoism was a matter of lineages of teachers, not an organized religion, but its a moot point now. sorry for derailing the thread Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 25, 2012 Daoists are simply Daoist, there are no "religious daoists" or "alchemical daoists", those are categories made up by those outside the tradition well the seven sages of bamboo grove were pretty heterodox, i didn't think they were ordained or anything, but i consider them "daoist" not to be argumentative, just trying to clarify my understanding (or lack thereof) I don't know much about Christianity but I read that John baptized Jesus, but who baptized John? There is always a beginning, hopefully nobody dare to compare themselves to Laozi lol i don't know much about christianity either, and i thought that daoism was older than master lao? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted August 25, 2012 oh nothing at all that wasnt where i was coming from i dont even consider myself a daoist, not having teachers in that tradition i just thought you and YM were saying one had to be ordained or baptized in dao or something for it to be official and i wondered where you got that idea. I thought daoism was a matter of lineages of teachers, not an organized religion, but its a moot point now. sorry for derailing the thread i see what you mean. well, we're talking about something that has it's source basically at the other end of the world, if something DIDN'T get lost in translation, would be a real miracle. i'm just a fan myself, haha 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 25, 2012 i see what you mean. well, we're talking about something that has it's source basically at the other end of the world, if something DIDN'T get lost in translation, would be a real miracle. i'm just a fan myself, haha truly (lost in translation) yes also a fan lol 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted August 25, 2012 truly (lost in translation) yes also a fan lol Yes. I too am a fan (and like WWROA, a "Curious" ). I would imagine that's it's extaordinarily difficult to translate these texts without being completely bilingual (both in terms of language and culture) and having first seen their true "meaning" for oneself. Also, if it's already been truly seen, then perhaps it's easier to write one's own book? Regarding "the Tao" - at this point, I'm a fan of Wei Wu Wei (Terence Gray) myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mYTHmAKER Posted August 25, 2012 Well, based only on the concept of "Tao", we all, all 7 billion of us, are Taoists; we are of Tao. Most of us just don't know it and possibly never will. Yes, to call oneself a "Laoist" is perhaps a 'purer' label to put on oneself. But then, do labels really matter? I would likely be more of a Chuangist than a Laoist but that's just me. Am I a Taoist? That question can be answered only by others, not by myself. Am I a fan of Lao Tzu? Sure I am. But I am also a fan of Nietzsche and Camus. Does the label matter? I think it is more at how we walk rather than how we talk. PS There are no mysteries, only a lack of understanding. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted August 25, 2012 So if I play on the team, I'm a Miami Dolphin, but if I play football all day and don't have a team, I'm a fan. Whatever, as long as I have something to paint my van with! ta ha haaa.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 25, 2012 haha well by the same token all of us are Hebrew or Arabic, eh? it's written in the Bible, that's what God created Good point. I wasn't expecting that. How about, "We all are children of the stars."? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YMWong Posted August 25, 2012 So if I play on the team, I'm a Miami Dolphin, but if I play football all day and don't have a team, I'm a fan. No, if you play all day and don't have a team you can be a football player but not a Miami Dolphin A Miami Dolphin makes million a year playing, a "football player" at best sweats and maybe doesn't even know where is Florida YM 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gatito Posted August 26, 2012 Sounds a bit like Tenzing Norgay and Edmund Hilary. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted August 26, 2012 Good point. I wasn't expecting that. How about, "We all are children of the stars."? well, that would imply that the stars had the intent of giving birth to humans [mostly] stard dust would cover it well?? i LOVE astronomy, astrobiology, astrophysics, as long as i can understand any of it haha so anyway i hope we won't throw Daoist / Taoist this label around too much then haha it's terribly misleading Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
