Ritualistic Magic? Whats the point?

[Disabled Not Broken]

DNB could you please elaborate on this?

lol nope

[eye_of_the_storm]

lol nope

 

I think you just did, cheers

[Cat Pillar]

Thanks for the list of Laws, DNB! I've read many of them before, but there were some I haven't seen and I've never seen so many described in one place before.

[Pai_Mei]

I might share something interesting with all of you which I found was the best occult interviews in years. Josephine MacCarthy is a very experienced magician and exorcist from Great Britain and her ideas are modern yet deeply routed in the true spirit of magick. In the first interview she delivers the best description of demons and negative entities I have ever heard. A needed breath of fresh air in the magickal community!

 

http://www.occultofpersonality.net/podcast-100-josephine-mccarthy/

http://www.occultofpersonality.net/the-magickal-work-of-josephine-mccarthy/

 

Listen to this. I'd love to hear your feedback.

[Pai_Mei]

uppps...McCarthy of course...

[ChiDragon]

uppps...McCarthy of course...

 

Did you know your avatar had a stroke.....few weeks ago....???

[Pai_Mei]

No ChiDragon, didn't know that. Did a research on the internet after you mentioned it. So sad to hear. He is one of the heroes of my childhood. I dearly pray for a speedy recovery! Gordon is a fighter, now he hopefully will do what he is best at. The hardest battles are presented by life itself. I wish him lots of strength!

[Unseen_Abilities]

I have one more n00b question in relation to Chaos Magic, and was hoping someone could give me some insight: I want to know, seeing as its described as a "meta-paradigm", and has a seemingly heavy emphasis on shifting between beliefs and all that stuff, if it will in any way take away from the "sacredness" and "mystery" that I perceive in life? That may sound stupid (hey, I did say n00b question) but I'm sort of on the verge right now of exploring this "meta-paradigm" or deciding if it would be wise to seek elsewhere for what I'm after, which, I suppose, is a spirituality that will allow me to connect with nature/the universe, and my own divinity, as well as myself, in a way that is free of dogma and unnecessary rules. I would like to be able to effect the reality around me, and go with the flow at the same time.

 

At times (though less than in the past) I find myself overwhelmed at the endless amount of paths one can walk, but that doesn't get anyone very far now, does it? I guess a part of me is wary about being sucked into something I won't be able to get out of, but f*ck, I'll only live this life once and I want to make the most of it.

 

For those who know about it, do you think Chaos Magic might be for me?

 

Peace all

[Jetsun]

I have heard of no western traditions producing anything meaninful from their students or their "masters".

 

No sense in wasting your time on a practice if no one ever has gotten any meaninful results from it.

 

Just my $0.02

 

The Fourth Way taught by Gurdjieff has groups in most major cities in the world including Eastern ones, there are now probably over a hundred books written by students who have benefitted and developed their consciousness through it. There are quite a few working Western traditions they are just more secretive than many Eastern ones, you just have to dig a bit to find them.

 

You will also find that most Taoist lineages are a mish mash of all sorts of teachings, nearly all of them have been heavily influenced by Buddhism for example, but such mish mashing isn't always such a bad thing.

 

 

[Thunder_Gooch]

I am aware of Gurdjeff, as well as one of his students P. D. Ouspensky who shares my same theory of a 6 dimensional spacetime.

 

Here is the thing though, Gurdjeff, and Ouspensky, and virtually 99.99999% of the rest of theologians, and philosophers, occultists and metaphysical scholars, etc. are all talk.

 

Oh great! So you uncovered something truly meaningful and profound in your 40 years of studies, reflection and contemplation??? Guess what? You still get to die, and your spirit is reborn, and you get to start this whole thing over again from square one. Fun times...

 

Worldwide there are a handful of people like John Chang, beings becoming something more than a flesh and blood body that will rot at death, and a spirit that will lay incoherent till it's reborn again.

 

The people like Chang who actually walk the walk are actually doing something meaningful, not waving wands in the air pretending to do be doing something meaningful, therein lays the difference.

 

99.999999999% of all teachings everywhere are BS, that lead nowhere for anyone who practices them. The few that are not BS are like trying to find needles in a near infinite hay stack.

 

As to mish mashing, I couldn't care less. What I am interested in is results. I listen to teachers who get results, and I flush the rest down the drain.

 

 

The Fourth Way taught by Gurdjieff has groups in most major cities in the world including Eastern ones, there are now probably over a hundred books written by students who have benefitted and developed their consciousness through it. There are quite a few working Western traditions they are just more secretive than many Eastern ones, you just have to dig a bit to find them.

 

You will also find that most Taoist lineages are a mish mash of all sorts of teachings, nearly all of them have been heavily influenced by Buddhism for example, but such mish mashing isn't always such a bad thing.

Edited September 12, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

Ouspensky was a scholar but Gurdjieff certainly wasn't, he passed on real development and teachings to others like Mm De Salzmann who many describe in similar terms as Eastern masters, if you study their books and meet someone who has been involved in a genuine lineage of the work it is clear it is vastly more than just mental knowledge. But Gurdjieff would probably agree with many of your comments, only .01% will get anywhere and he explains exactly why this is the case, but I am not aware of John Chang producing many disciples or being able to transmit his teachings so I don't know if he is any better example of a master, although I don't know that much about him except a few videos which wow people.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Jetsun

[Thunder_Gooch]

Gurdjieff's teachings don't produce the results I am looking for.

 

If I am still going to die, and I am still going to be reborn, then there is no point in wasting my time with a practice that can't help me with that core problem.

 

But different strokes for different folks.

 

If you like his teachings and feel they have benefited you, more power to you.

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d

[Thunder_Gooch]

Aha, why is this the case? And is it valid for all traditions / methods?

1. Most practices don't do anything.
   
2. Most people don't put in the effort required to get anything out of the practice even if it did do anything. We are a culture of ADHD, morons who can't focus on any one thing for more than 10 minutes.
   
3. This is why practices which require no effort on the part of the practitioner are so popular.
   

Edited September 12, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Pai_Mei]

I have to agree with Jetsun here. Gurdjieff's teachings are very deep. So deep actually that only a few will understand them properly and he truly was an adept. Well without being disrespectful to any Mo-Pai-afficionado, but I read the "Magus of Java" and most of what I read was display of certain siddhis and certain high level-practitioners of this art that try to kill each other with Qi-balls The only experience of depth of John Chang that Danaos shared in the book (and there may be many more) was when he meditated in the jungle for a long time and had an experience of a presence he described later as being "god". If you want to risk your health for being able to throw cigarette boxes around then good luck! But what starts to annoy me is that most people that are interested in Mo-Pai are only interested (if they were honest) in aquiring Siddhis. I think that John Chang deeply regrets having shown his powers in public and having been so open to Western students that are unable to look past the display of powers.I am convinced that there is enlightenment to be found on this path but John Chang although being a businessman needs a much better marketing Maybe something like this: If you seriously want to develop yourself, come in. If you want Siddhis, get your arse of my property or my magickal Keris will cut you into pieces!

PS: The question is also: If you could become immortal,would this make you any wiser, more humble, more connected?

[Thunder_Gooch]

I have to agree with Jetsun here. Gurdjieff's teachings are very deep. So deep actually that only a few will understand them properly and he truly was an adept. Well without being disrespectful to any Mo-Pai-afficionado, but I read the "Magus of Java" and most of what I read was display of certain siddhis and certain high level-practitioners of this art that try to kill each other with Qi-balls The only experience of depth of John Chang that Danaos shared in the book (and there may be many more) was when he meditated in the jungle for a long time and had an experience of a presence he described later as being "god". If you want to risk your health for being able to throw cigarette boxes around then good luck! But what starts to annoy me is that most people that are interested in Mo-Pai are only interested (if they were honest) in aquiring Siddhis. I think that John Chang deeply regrets having shown his powers in public and having been so open to Western students that are unable to look past the display of powers.I am convinced that there is enlightenment to be found on this path but John Chang although being a businessman needs a much better marketing Maybe something like this: If you seriously want to develop yourself, come in. If you want Siddhis, get your arse of my property or my magickal Keris will cut you into pieces!

PS: The question is also: If you could become immortal,would this make you any wiser, more humble, more connected?

 

Actions speak louder than words, and systems that get results and have an underlying metaphysical science and theory behind them are infinitely more profound than anything any armchair philosopher can provide.

 

The main point is however, no matter how "deep" (and I use the word loosely) a philosophy, what good is it to you if in the end you still die and are reborn.

 

It's like we are all airborne off a cliff, and waiting for the bus to impact the ground, and we are trying to figure out who has the deepest philosophy rather than how to survive the crash.

 

I love philosophy, but in the end what does it do to help improve my situation?

 

I haven't found anything in my studies of Gurdjieff, that I would consider profound.

 

Alan Watts is much more my style.

 

Perhaps you could illuminate us with some of your favorite teachings of Gurdjieff?

 

P.S. I don't give a damn about developing Siddhis, the only purpose they serve is mile-markers on your path. The end goal is ending rebirth as an immortal spirit which does not reincarnate. I do agree that most who pursue it want to become Goku, and that is their primary motivation.

Edited September 12, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Fū Yue]

The point is, no matter how "deep" (and I use the word loosely) a philosophy, what good is it to you if in the end you still die and are reborn.

 

Have you experienced death and rebirth?

[Thunder_Gooch]

 

Have you experienced death and rebirth?

 

I believe I have. Yes.

 

Even if what I experienced was delusion, (which I don't think it was) there are certain cases for what can happen after death.

 

1. You die and that's it for the rest of eternity, eternal nonexistence forever.
   
2. You die and are eventually reborn.
   
3. You die and continue to exist and are not reborn.
   

 

I am sure there are a lot of subcategories underneath each of those as well.

 

Of all those scenarios the only one that really irks me is cyclic existence, starting out as a new organism somewhere in the universe, over and over and over and over again.

[Jeff]

 

Of all those scenarios the only one that really irks me is cyclic existence, starting out as a new organism somewhere in the universe, over and over and over and over again.

 

Why? Just more opportunities to experience and play...

 

[Pai_Mei]

Most of the language of Gurdjieff is coded and deciphering it is actually the fun part on studying his teachings. But there are other useful tools that are more easily to understand. Just think of the "enneagramme". Anyhow, Gurdjieff did not suit you and that is okay for me. There is a path for anyone. And you seem to have a strong opinion on what your spiritual purpose is. I am cool with that, too as there are many people that have no clear opinion on anything.However as I am aware of several of my incarnations I would say that anything has its pros and cons. Reconnecting to some past-lifes was actually fun and rewarding - especially if you are able to reconnect to your knowledge as well.In that way you can get wiser even while incarnating rather than just watching the party from above One of my teachers used to say that the only thing that ennerved him concerning reincarnation was that he had to undergo toilet-training again and again

[Thunder_Gooch]

Why? Just more opportunities to experience and play...

 

 

Sure if you want to continue playing that's fine, but I don't.

 

In this universe there are infinite experiences to be had, ranging from the most deep and profound, to the most banal. From horrors, pain and terror beyond human comprehension, to the most pleasurable states of bliss imaginable.

 

I'm done with it all, I want this lifetime to be my last.

Edited September 12, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

Most of the language of Gurdjieff is coded and deciphering it is actually the fun part on studying his teachings. But there are other useful tools that are more easily to understand. Just think of the "enneagramme". Anyhow, Gurdjieff did not suit you and that is okay for me. There is a path for anyone. And you seem to have a strong opinion on what your spiritual purpose is. I am cool with that, too as there are many people that have no clear opinion on anything.However as I am aware of several of my incarnations I would say that anything has its pros and cons. Reconnecting to some past-lifes was actually fun and rewarding - especially if you are able to reconnect to your knowledge as well.In that way you can get wiser even while incarnating rather than just watching the party from above One of my teachers used to say that the only thing that ennerved him concerning reincarnation was that he had to undergo toilet-training again and again

 

 

So of all you've read from Gurdjieff, which of his teachings strikes you as most profound?

[Pai_Mei]

Well, what I like most about his teachings is his syncretism. So what he tried with his "fourth way" was not only a synthesis between different traditions (Sufism/Raja-Yoga/orthodox christianity/alchemy among others) but also the development of an "integral Yoga" much like Sri Aurobindo. So Gurdjieff work has breathing exercises, awareness exercises, dance, Zikr, enneagramme, memory exercises, exercises for training the will, self-observation etc. Well, being "integral" is trendy nowadays but at his time it was unique.

[Protector]

Best part of being reborn is forgetting the obsession with not wanting to be reborn

[Seth Ananda]

I have one more n00b question in relation to Chaos Magic, and was hoping someone could give me some insight: I want to know, seeing as its described as a "meta-paradigm", and has a seemingly heavy emphasis on shifting between beliefs and all that stuff, if it will in any way take away from the "sacredness" and "mystery" that I perceive in life? That may sound stupid (hey, I did say n00b question) but I'm sort of on the verge right now of exploring this "meta-paradigm" or deciding if it would be wise to seek elsewhere for what I'm after, which, I suppose, is a spirituality that will allow me to connect with nature/the universe, and my own divinity, as well as myself, in a way that is free of dogma and unnecessary rules. I would like to be able to effect the reality around me, and go with the flow at the same time.

 

At times (though less than in the past) I find myself overwhelmed at the endless amount of paths one can walk, but that doesn't get anyone very far now, does it? I guess a part of me is wary about being sucked into something I won't be able to get out of, but f*ck, I'll only live this life once and I want to make the most of it.

 

For those who know about it, do you think Chaos Magic might be for me?

 

Peace all

For the vast majority of CM's out there, they Never had the sacredness of life to begin with. it seems to draw in the young dispossessed postmodernist wanderers, and the older practitioners with a rebel chip, who are both looking for something new, but cant stomach having to conform to any dogmas, of any kind, ever...

Some get more sense of the sacred, some loose what little they had {these tend to be the Morons in my book}. The good ones I know got more, and enough to eventually pick up real practice in a traditional path of some kind...