Ritualistic Magic? Whats the point?

[Jetsun]

Actions speak louder than words, and systems that get results and have an underlying metaphysical science and theory behind them are infinitely more profound than anything any armchair philosopher can provide.

 

The main point is however, no matter how "deep" (and I use the word loosely) a philosophy, what good is it to you if in the end you still die and are reborn.

 

It's like we are all airborne off a cliff, and waiting for the bus to impact the ground, and we are trying to figure out who has the deepest philosophy rather than how to survive the crash.

 

I love philosophy, but in the end what does it do to help improve my situation?

 

I haven't found anything in my studies of Gurdjieff, that I would consider profound.

 

Alan Watts is much more my style.

 

Perhaps you could illuminate us with some of your favorite teachings of Gurdjieff?

 

P.S. I don't give a damn about developing Siddhis, the only purpose they serve is mile-markers on your path. The end goal is ending rebirth as an immortal spirit which does not reincarnate. I do agree that most who pursue it want to become Goku, and that is their primary motivation.

 

Gurdjieff's book Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson contains an answer to nearly every question that I have ever read on this board, including an answer to your quest about being reborn and immortality. He says that if you cultivate correctly you refine your energy which creates a coating of your astral body which then has the capability to survive death, the process to do this is described scientifically using the Law of Three, the Law of Ocatves and the table of hydrogens.

 

He didn't just teach regular development he brought back an entire science of cultivation, but he recognised that many of the old teachings are not very applicable any more to the modern busy scientifically minded person with the crust of ego we now have, so like all the great historical masters he adapted the teachings to the current situation and population. But none of what Gurdjieff teaches was invented by him, it is all old ancient knowledge from many different traditions which may well have been lost to the world forever if it was not for his extraordinary determination to seek out genuine knowledge and genuine masters. Siddhi tricks like lighting up boxes and escaping reincarnation were not as important to him as reducing the amount of suffering in the world as he lived during the two World Wars so one of his main ambitions was to find and root out the cause of such wars and destroy psychopathy which surrounds them.

[Seth Ananda]

Sure if you want to continue playing that's fine, but I don't.

 

In this universe there are infinite experiences to be had, ranging from the most deep and profound, to the most banal. From horrors, pain and terror beyond human comprehension, to the most pleasurable states of bliss imaginable.

 

I'm done with it all, I want this lifetime to be my last.

One of the True goals of Magick, Alchemy and the entire Western tradition is Immortality.

This is achieved by what is sometimes called the First Wedding which is the permanent fusing or joining of the Soul and the Spirit. I personally believe this is the same as fusing the Hun and the Po souls.

In the western traditions and elsewhere, we have several souls, that are held together by the body, but if we dont do the work, they seperate after death, bringing about forgetting and rebirth. This was seen as a disaster for the Individual in the old traditions... lol.

[Unseen_Abilities]

For the vast majority of CM's out there, they Never had the sacredness of life to begin with. it seems to draw in the young dispossessed postmodernist wanderers, and the older practitioners with a rebel chip, who are both looking for something new, but cant stomach having to conform to any dogmas, of any kind, ever...

Some get more sense of the sacred, some loose what little they had {these tend to be the Morons in my book}. The good ones I know got more, and enough to eventually pick up real practice in a traditional path of some kind...

 

Thanks, Seth - Again, I appreciate your reply.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Gurdjieff's book Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson contains an answer to nearly every question that I have ever read on this board, including an answer to your quest about being reborn and immortality. He says that if you cultivate correctly you refine your energy which creates a coating of your astral body which then has the capability to survive death, the process to do this is described scientifically using the Law of Three, the Law of Ocatves and the table of hydrogens.

 

He didn't just teach regular development he brought back an entire science of cultivation, but he recognised that many of the old teachings are not very applicable any more to the modern busy scientifically minded person with the crust of ego we now have, so like all the great historical masters he adapted the teachings to the current situation and population. But none of what Gurdjieff teaches was invented by him, it is all old ancient knowledge from many different traditions which may well have been lost to the world forever if it was not for his extraordinary determination to seek out genuine knowledge and genuine masters. Siddhi tricks like lighting up boxes and escaping reincarnation were not as important to him as reducing the amount of suffering in the world as he lived during the two World Wars so one of his main ambitions was to find and root out the cause of such wars and destroy psychopathy which surrounds them.

 

If you don't mind could please provide me with some page numbers I just bought the kindle version, and would like to read over this system.

 

I've done keyword searches for "astral" "astral body" "reborn" "rebirth" "reincarnation" "death" and more and not finding anything of note.

 

I suspect though there really is no system here, just more philosophy and metaphysical speculation as are 99.9999999% of all the books I've ever bought.

Edited September 13, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Thunder_Gooch]

One of the True goals of Magick, Alchemy and the entire Western tradition is Immortality.

This is achieved by what is sometimes called the First Wedding which is the permanent fusing or joining of the Soul and the Spirit. I personally believe this is the same as fusing the Hun and the Po souls.

In the western traditions and elsewhere, we have several souls, that are held together by the body, but if we dont do the work, they seperate after death, bringing about forgetting and rebirth. This was seen as a disaster for the Individual in the old traditions... lol.

 

I am not disputing the goals of western magick, I am disputing their success rate or rather lack thereof.

Edited September 13, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[宁]

be careful what you fish, aaaa... wish for

 

[Jetsun]

 

 

If you don't mind could please provide me with some page numbers I just bought the kindle version, and would like to read over this system.

 

I've done keyword searches for "astral" "astral body" "reborn" "rebirth" "reincarnation" "death" and more and not finding anything of note.

 

I suspect though there really is no system here, just more philosophy and metaphysical speculation as are 99.9999999% of all the books I've ever bought.

 

He calls the astral body "Kesjan" body because he knows many words people use are already loaded with innacurate meanings so in many cases he uses his own words for things. The system is somewhat hidden though on purpose because Gurdjieff realises that people only usually treasure things if they work hard to earn them. It's a very hard book to begin with though, you may get more out of reading his second book Meetings with Remarkable Men first, that is what I would recommend especially if you are only interested in serious seekers.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Jetsun

[Thunder_Gooch]

He calls the astral body "Kesjan" body because he knows many words people use are already loaded with innacurate meanings so in many cases he uses his own words for things. The system is somewhat hidden though on purpose because Gurdjieff realises that people only usually treasure things if they work hard to earn them. It's a very hard book to begin with though, you may get more out of reading his second book Meetings with Remarkable Men first, that is what I would recommend especially if you are only interested in serious seekers.

 

 

For sure not my cup of tea, I spent the better part of early AM searching his books for anything worth mentioning.

 

If you somehow found a system in all that newage gobbledygook, I'd love to hear your insights for training in it.

 

I won't be buying any more books though, one is enough.

Edited March 12, 2013 by More_Pie_Guy

[GrandmasterP]

Ni disrespect to Grandmaster John Chang but that chopstick test works every time on balsa wood.

Edited September 13, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[Jetsun]

For sure not my cup of tea, I spent the better part of ealy AM searching his books for anything worth mentioning.

 

If you somehow found a system in all that newage gobbledygook, I'd love to hear your insights for training in it.

 

I won't be buying any more books though, one is enough.

 

I'm not sure if you see the irony between this post and what you said earlier about the ADHD generation wanting everything instantly on a plate served up for them without hard work. But if it isn't your cup of tea that is fair enough, it isn't many other people's either. But I wouldn't call it gobbledygook, it is often regarded as one of the top 100 most influential books ever written http://en.wikipedia....ks_Ever_Written

 

But I do think you would enjoy the book Meetings With Remarkable Men as if you are interested in genuine sincere seekers, you wont find one more determined to find the truth than Gurdjieff as he was prepared to risk everything to try to gain access to to all the secret and hidden teachings, which resulted in him being shot and imprisoned a few times and contracting a number of diseases and dealing with all sorts of hardships in his quest for truth going to places cut off from outsiders like Sufi, Temples, Christian Monasteries and Tibet when foreigners were still not allowed in; most modern seekers give up if they have to take a bus too far. You don't need to buy the books most of them are available for free now as they are quite old http://www.scribd.co...-Remarkable-Men

[Thunder_Gooch]

I'm not sure if you see the irony between this post and what you said earlier about the ADHD generation wanting everything instantly on a plate served up for them without hard work. But if it isn't your cup of tea that is fair enough, it isn't many other people's either. But I wouldn't call it gobbledygook, it is often regarded as one of the top 100 most influential books ever written http://en.wikipedia....ks_Ever_Written

 

But I do think you would enjoy the book Meetings With Remarkable Men as if you are interested in genuine sincere seekers, you wont find one more determined to find the truth than Gurdjieff as he was prepared to risk everything to try to gain access to to all the secret and hidden teachings, which resulted in him being shot and imprisoned a few times and contracting a number of diseases and dealing with all sorts of hardships in his quest for truth going to places cut off from outsiders like Sufi, Temples, Christian Monasteries and Tibet when foreigners were still not allowed in; most modern seekers give up if they have to take a bus too far. You don't need to buy the books most of them are available for free now as they are quite old http://www.scribd.co...-Remarkable-Men

 

To the best of my knowledge Gurdjieff never accomplished anything other than being good at lecturing on metaphysics.

 

That's really not my thing, I want results not speculation.

 

What you don't seem to comprehend, is I don't care how erudite, or esoteric a teaching or teacher may or may not be. If it doesn't get results, it doesn't get results. I am not here to evaluate every potential metaphysical teaching by every single metaphysical teacher on planet earth that lived anywhere ever. I am here to look for teachings that get results, and burn the rest as garbage.

 

Quite simply I just don't care about examining and studying every possible crazy *** belief that exists to try and determine if there is some validity to it. In my practice I insert said teaching and teacher into the toilet, and flush, rinse later and repeat.

 

I am not going to sit down and read a one thousand two hundred page book by some newage nutjob author that hasn't proven his worth.

 

I can and do sit down and read books by authors if I think I might find something true and useful from doing so however.

 

Money talks and BS walks.

 

I am not interested in any more books by this author.

 

I would be willing to listen to your extremely short cliffnotes version on his "system" and "method" of developing the "Kesdjan" as Gurdjieff calls it.

 

If your not willing or able that's fine as well.

 

Just call me a closed minded "three brained" "hanbledzoin" leaking "aiëssakhladonn" silly me...

Edited September 13, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Jetsun]

Ok it's not your thing, that is fine, without you personally meeting anyone from the system it is pretty hard for me to prove that he got results except by pointing you in the direction of the work of his students such as Jeanne De Salzmann, you can read her book "The Reality of Being" http://www.scribd.com/doc/99356205/Jeanne-de-Salzmann-The-Reality-of-Being-OCR where it is clear that she got results from Gurdjieff's system, but you don't seem to want to look at any other books. The Zen master Roshi Kobori said that she was "the most remarkable woman I have ever met" and the author Ravi Ravindra who studied with J. Krishnamurti said that in many ways she was the more advanced of the two, if that is worth anything at all.

 

I can try to summarise the system, yet others have tried to do so and written lengthy volumes so whatever I write wont suffice. But essentially because we are all individuals with individual blockages and backgrounds all inner work is risky until we do a thorough self observation of ourselves, there are all sort of people who do incorrect breathing exercises and energy practices which do more harm than good you get them on this board all of the time so the first thing is to observe yourself, and a number of individual exercises are given to do this including stepping outside of ourselves in different situations in life to try to observe ourselves as impartially as possible in the middle of life. Then when you observe yourself enough over a long period of time you see how fragmented and disjointed you are as an individual you are in a position to receive genuine help and for other things to come in from the outside, then there are other exercises given to "remember yourself" which is an exercise where you observe all three centres of yourself at once, if you can achieve this then you can enter flow or unity. There are many other exercises given such as sensing different areas of the body while saying "I AM" so you can sense where in your body your sense of "I" is located, which are written about in Gurdjieff's third book and in Jeanne De Salzmann's book.

 

There are many other areas of work such as hard physical work, music, enneagram work and many sacred dances all while observing yourself with the aim to transform within yourself what he describes as the "Chief feature" of your personality. When you work on yourself in the correct way and observe yourself your blockages become transformed and you begin to transmute your sexual energy naturally which creates a coating around your astral body which has the capacity to survive death and also as you are dissolving your personality structures you gain siddhi powers such as telepathy (as documented in Ouspensky's book "In Search of the Miraculous"). Really I can't do the system any sort of justice here so if you are interested you are better off reading about it on the web or in many of the hundreds of books written about it.

[Thunder_Gooch]

Ok it's not your thing, that is fine, without you personally meeting anyone from the system it is pretty hard for me to prove that he got results except by pointing you in the direction of the work of his students such as Jeanne De Salzmann, you can read her book "The Reality of Being" http://www.scribd.co...ty-of-Being-OCR where it is clear that she got results from Gurdjieff's system, but you don't seem to want to look at any other books. The Zen master Roshi Kobori said that she was "the most remarkable woman I have ever met" and the author Ravi Ravindra who studied with J. Krishnamurti said that in many ways she was the more advanced of the two, if that is worth anything at all.

 

I can try to summarise the system, yet others have tried to do so and written lengthy volumes so whatever I write wont suffice. But essentially because we are all individuals with individual blockages and backgrounds all inner work is risky until we do a thorough self observation of ourselves, there are all sort of people who do incorrect breathing exercises and energy practices which do more harm than good you get them on this board all of the time so the first thing is to observe yourself, and a number of individual exercises are given to do this including stepping outside of ourselves in different situations in life to try to observe ourselves as impartially as possible in the middle of life. Then when you observe yourself enough over a long period of time you see how fragmented and disjointed you are as an individual you are in a position to receive genuine help and for other things to come in from the outside, then there are other exercises given to "remember yourself" which is an exercise where you observe all three centres of yourself at once, if you can achieve this then you can enter flow or unity. There are many other exercises given such as sensing different areas of the body while saying "I AM" so you can sense where in your body your sense of "I" is located, which are written about in Gurdjieff's third book and in Jeanne De Salzmann's book.

 

There are many other areas of work such as hard physical work, music, enneagram work and many sacred dances all while observing yourself with the aim to transform within yourself what he describes as the "Chief feature" of your personality. When you work on yourself in the correct way and observe yourself your blockages become transformed and you begin to transmute your sexual energy naturally which creates a coating around your astral body which has the capacity to survive death and also as you are dissolving your personality structures you gain siddhi powers such as telepathy (as documented in Ouspensky's book "In Search of the Miraculous"). Really I can't do the system any sort of justice here so if you are interested you are better off reading about it on the web or in many of the hundreds of books written about it.

 

I appreciate you taking the time to summarize it for me.

 

Thank you.

[RiverSnake]

Hm...wonder why this thread doesn't show n the occult area?

[RiverSnake]

I would suggest learning about the pitfalls first.

Observe different systems and how practitioners are changed by them.

Does it look like the system creates positive development long term? Negative?

 

Knowing how to spot cult tendencies, and the work of tricksters is a very usefull skill.

Can you get real tangible answers about where the system comes from? Who created it, and for what?

 

Never use language or symbols you don't understand.

Easy to miss the fine print if it's written in enochian

I recently read Magical Knowledge by Josephine McCarthy. The first half of the entire book was basically about guiding the practitioner past the pitfalls of the path. I highly recommend. Bump

[Taiji Bum]

Been practicing daily self-cultivation for about 2 years now through my my Neigong practices and have found that personally in the realm of cultivation it is all that is really required.

 

However as of late i have been proportioning a bit of my time in exploring the Western Tradition and working a bit with the Tree. I have noticed that in the Western Tradition there is a very large emphasis on Ritualistic Magic.

 

For the practitioner does practicing this kind of Magic add another dimension to one's practice which self-cultivation does not?

 

What's the point of doing Ritual Magic, i don't really understand what the point of this kind of practice is or what value it brings to one's esoteric practice? I assume people practice it for a genuine reason?

 

Could someone perhaps enlighten me on the value of this practice?

The principles are the same in Eastern and Western alchemy but in the West alchemy is often kicked off and supported with some ritual. In masonry we have mediations much like those found in Tibetan Buddhism. I practiced Taoist alchemy many years before I joined the Freemasons and meeting extremely adept ritual magicians. I think it is just a matter of taste. I enjoy the ritual but I prefer straight up Eastern meditation and energy work. Its all related to the Great Work. Crowley talks about it in MAGICK IN THEORY AND PRACTICE. Some people prefer devotional mysticism, some prefer ritual mysticism and others prefer just the bare bones. I think Yoga talks about 8 paths or yogas, Karma yoga, kriya yoga, bakti yoga and the rest I forget.

[RiverSnake]

Found this blog useful: http://www.inominandum.com/blog/sorcery-sans-stuff/

[rex]

Is ritual magic a true spiritual practice? Podcast here:

http://www.yourspiritualbroadcast.com/2014/10/31/is-ritual-magic-a-true-spiritual-practice-ysb014/

 

edit: tpyo

Edited December 2, 2014 by rex

[Michael Sternbach]

Found this blog useful: http://www.inominandum.com/blog/sorcery-sans-stuff/

 

In this context, I would like to highlight Donald Tyson's book: Portable Magic - Tarot is the Only Thing You Need.

 

Even though I am more inclined to work with Janina Renée: Tarot Spells right now. Renée does suggest using additional items, but is very flexible in her approach as to what needs to be employed.

[Zhongyongdaoist]

 

In this context, I would like to highlight Donald Tyson's book: Portable Magic - Tarot is the Only Thing You Need.

 

Even though I am more inclined to work with Janina Renée: Tarot Spells right now. Renée does suggest using additional items, but is very flexible in her approach as to what needs to be employed.

 

I will repeat what I have said elsewhere:

 

Any well formed symbol system is useful for both passive uses, like divination, in which it reflects a train of events and for active purposes like magic, where it can be used to influence a train of events. The Tarot is excellent as a magical system, the average "magician" can hardly dream of all that is concealed in Western Geomancy as a form of magic, the same goes for Yi Jing, Mah Jong, and many other systems like that. I have experience with several of them,some for decades. They are worth the time and effort investigating. (Emphasis added, ZYD)

 

Western Geomancy is one of the most useful and at the same time underestimated magical subsystems around.

 

As for rituals themselves, the time which I spent studying and working with the Golden Dawn initiatory rituals has repaid itself over and over again. More importantly this is just a starting point, once real understanding is gained, possibilities open up that are amazing.

 

One of the best examples of the possibilities that open up are the Daoist system of ritual/meditation/cultivation, where the Microcosm/Macrocosm relation is fully developed and the meditation is internal ritual and the ritual is externalized meditation.

[Arda]

Magic, however fascinating, is ultimately irrelevant in the climb towards reunion with the Principle, which is the source of all magic itself.

 

In my mind these practices are great tools for growth and further showcase the glory of the Principle, but should never be esteemed above the Principle. That said, I have real respect for those individuals who truly understand the divine science and use it for noble purposes.

 

Many don't.

[RiverSnake]

A funny and cute cartoon guide to Chaos Magick.  

 

https://ultraculture.org/blog/2015/11/13/psychonaut-field-manual/ 

[mrpasserby]

On 9/12/2012 at 2:33 PM, Jetsun said:

 

Gurdjieff's book Beelzebubs Tales to his Grandson contains an answer to nearly every question that I have ever read on this board, including an answer to your quest about being reborn and immortality. He says that if you cultivate correctly you refine your energy which creates a coating of your astral body which then has the capability to survive death, the process to do this is described scientifically using the Law of Three, the Law of Ocatves and the table of hydrogens.

 

He didn't just teach regular development he brought back an entire science of cultivation, but he recognised that many of the old teachings are not very applicable any more to the modern busy scientifically minded person with the crust of ego we now have, so like all the great historical masters he adapted the teachings to the current situation and population. But none of what Gurdjieff teaches was invented by him, it is all old ancient knowledge from many different traditions which may well have been lost to the world forever if it was not for his extraordinary determination to seek out genuine knowledge and genuine masters. Siddhi tricks like lighting up boxes and escaping reincarnation were not as important to him as reducing the amount of suffering in the world as he lived during the two World Wars so one of his main ambitions was to find and root out the cause of such wars and destroy psychopathy which surrounds them.

You have posted really good and deep information.

If you read the following and find it offensive in any way I will gladly delete the comments with no hard feelings.

 

Spoiler

Have you ever looked for or asked for a spirit world initiation. In my opinion this esoteric information is the hint: 'knock and it will be opened', seek and you shall find'

I know of a current iteration of #Beelzebuub, who in the recent past has visited those who desired to receive his tutelage. He visited me in my home, healed me of a decades old *wound and then when I visited him in Australia he gave me a gift.

*several other healers had repaired the internal wound and the broken bones and one had given me a gift, but until Beelzebuub healed me up no one had closed up the leakage.

#Beelzebuub-prince of spirits.

https://belsebuub.com/astral-meetings-with-the-being-belsebuub

 

Edited September 4, 2017 by mrpasserby
quoted without adding content accidently

[mrpasserby]

On 9/12/2012 at 5:47 PM, Thunder_Gooch said:

 

If you don't mind could please provide me with some page numbers I just bought the kindle version, and would like to read over this system.

 

I've done keyword searches for "astral" "astral body" "reborn" "rebirth" "reincarnation" "death" and more and not finding anything of note.

 

I suspect though there really is no system here, just more philosophy and metaphysical speculation as are 99.9999999% of all the books I've ever bought.

Agreed, about just more philosophy, just like most when they get a taste of a Real spirit world journey like the *wild hunt. Change their minds about following the path and get religion so that they can trust in those teachings that are outside of themselves. 

Others, practitioners of various forms of magic, joined in it voluntarily, as an intangible part of them (a “soul,” if you like) flew with the cavalcade while their bodies lay in their beds as if sleeping normally.

 

[nohbody]