Ritualistic Magic? Whats the point?

[Seth Ananda]

Hi K.

I dont personally worry about such things.

I contact what I intent to contact and that is that in general. When contact Pan, I don't get Satan, Unless i was deliberately trying to get a hybrid of the two.

 

Nothing against Satan by the way, he is quite interesting in his own right...

[eye_of_the_storm]

In Greek religion and mythology, Pan (Ancient Greek: Πᾶν, Pān) is the god of the wild, shepherds and flocks, nature, of mountain wilds, hunting and rustic music, and companion of the nymphs.^[1] His name originates within the Ancient Greek language, from the word paein (πάειν), meaning "to pasture."^[2] He has the hindquarters, legs, and horns of a goat, in the same manner as a faun or satyr. With his homeland in rustic Arcadia, he is recognized as the god of fields, groves, and wooded glens; because of this, Pan is connected to fertility and the season of spring. The ancient Greeks also considered Pan to be the god of theatrical criticism.^{[3] WIKI}

 

Is this Pan being a collective thought form or a sovereign?

 

What is the benefit of contacting such as being?

 

Is it similar to the use on entheogens and connecting with the spirit of a plant to acquire self knowledge etc?

 

As in the OP how does this compare to self inquiry / meditation and cultivation?

 

Would Pan be able to introduce me to some nice nymph?

 

What benefits would or wouldn't this bestow?

 

I remember ... sorry Bardon again... discussing an apprentice / friend of his making the mistake of marrying a mermaid(though was advised against it) ?

 

What type of exchange do these beings usually require for their services?

 

Is such a thing giving away ones own power to manifest?

Edited August 27, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[theurgy]

The point = DO it and find out

[Unseen_Abilities]

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Edited January 31, 2014 by Unseen_Abilities

[eye_of_the_storm]

The point = DO it and find out

 

That is a good point ahahha

 

Though...maybe it would be like somebody asking another how to fly a fighter jet ... and somebody says... just DO it

 

I am just trying to get a feel to see if I want to DO it or not DO it

 

From the so called 'Occult' I have read so far... not so inspiring

 

For something that is suppose to be hidden...it is all over the internet haha + in its time published/ given to the public... which leads me to believe for the most part its all nonsense / disinformation.

 

Considering great effort was afforded by the PTB to destroy all real knowledge + mystery schools etc... + persons of that knowledge

 

When I see Library of Congress Cataloging-in-Publication Data... within the first few pages... for some reason I am concerned

 

I would also like to address experiences people have that corresponded to their belief system...

 

If you believe in Jesus you will see Jesus

If you believe in Buddha you will see Buddha

If you believe in Krishna you will see Krishna

 

What I am getting at...probably poorly... are these things delusional? + the giving away or ones own sovereignty / divinity by worshiping or exchanging with other entities/ beings. (minus exchange between earth folk)

 

If ones experience is a reflection of ones beliefs... why the need for all these obstacles

Edited August 27, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[theurgy]

WhiteWolf,

 

Your dilemma is understandable. There is a lot of garbage New Age occultism being written these days and it's difficult to know what to practice. At some point we have to start doing SOMETHING and a path will open up. Stagnation occurs when one waits for the conditions to be perfect before taking action. It seems to me that you owe it to that part of you that is curious about Ritual Magick to test out some methods and see that if you dare to practice magick it works! But don't be fooled: there is nothing easy about this Work. The New Age sells Ritual Magick as some sort of quick-fix when nothing could be further from Truth. it works if YOU work. And work you must.

 

May I ask--do you currently have a personal practice?

[eye_of_the_storm]

I did practice fire gazing + a breathing exercise.... keeping the mind on the point between inhale (space) exhale (space) inhale (space) etc

 

+ Physical exercise

 

Though... for some time now I have been caught up in the world of conspiracy / darkness, deceit / manipulation etc

 

Which has helped to expand my mind... but makes my heart heavy

 

Looking for more positive growth for both mind and heart / hence my being here

 

I endeavor to begin the above practices again soon as the results were good.

 

hmm I also use runes + attempting dream yoga / lucid dreaming... intent/ will, imagination

 

Edited August 27, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Unseen_Abilities]

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Edited January 31, 2014 by Unseen_Abilities

[eye_of_the_storm]

Can anyone provide some more info on Chaos Magic? I like the idea of having the freedom to use anything you want to achieve a result, but where does it get you spiritually? What's the end goal of practising it? Is it simply used to acquire material things or can it be a spiritual path as well? I've been tossing up whether or not to buy a particularly interesting looking book on the subject (It's called "Hands on Chaos Magic") but I haven't as of yet because I'm not sure it would be a wise decision...This is probably just my social conditioning talking, but the very words "Chaos Magic" have a certain "feel" to them which I'm not sure "feels" right. It could be fine though, so please share your views/experiences.

 

Although there are a few techniques unique to chaos magic (such as some forms of sigil magic), chaos magic is often highly individualistic and borrows liberally from other belief systems, due to chaos magic having a central belief that belief is a tool. Some common sources of inspiration include such diverse areas as science fiction, scientific theories, traditional ceremonial magic, neoshamanism, Eastern philosophy, world religions, and individual experimentation. Despite tremendous individual variation, chaos magicians (sometimes called "chaotes"^[2]) often work with chaotic and humorous paradigms, such as the worship of Hundun from Taoism or Eris from Discordianism. Some chaos magicians also use psychedelic drugs in practices such as chemognosticism.^[3]

 

Chaos magicians are often seen by other occultists as dangerous or worrisome revolutionaries.^[2]

 

Chaos came to be part of this movement defined as "the 'thing' responsible for the origin and continued action of events[...]. It could as well be called God or Tao, but the name Chaos is virtually meaningless and free from the anthropomorphic ideas of religion."^[6] The Symbol of Chaos used to signify it was apparently, but not explicitly, lifted from the fantasy novels of Michael Moorcock. Carroll wrote that the chaotic aspect of this magic aims for "psychological anarchy[...] The aim is to produce inspiration and enlightenment through disordering our belief structures." wiki

[eye_of_the_storm]

this... "psychological anarchy[...] The aim is to produce inspiration and enlightenment through disordering our belief structures."

 

This is how I would describe... more or less the result of my studies into the world of conspiracy / darkness, deceit / manipulation...

 

So much conflict allows little to grasp at anymore... so it is freeing in a sense.

Edited August 27, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Panas trismegistos]

come man Western Tradition is not Ritualistic Magic , it called ceremonial Magic!

 

The difference between Ritual Magic and ceremonial Magic ( as Kabalah ) , is that in ceremonial there is Evocation and invocation .

Opposed the Ritual Magic can be Nature Magic .

Initiation into Hermetics is a great book from a great magus .

 

Disabled Not Broken when you said Egregores you mean Creating Magickal Entities ???

That's i understand !

 

"Hands on Chaos Magic" is a great book and it can make magick to actual

work !

Edited August 27, 2012 by Panas trismegistos

[Seth Ananda]

Lets not get carried away with one book or schools definitions over anothers Panas... Plenty of schools call Ceremonial Magick Ritual Magick and vice versa.

 

My two favourite books on Chaos Magick are 'Liber Null & Psychonaut' which was/is 2 truly original texts on Magick, and now in one volume. Its the volume/s that helped start the whole chaos wildfire...

 

The other is 'Between Spaces' by Australia's Templum Nigri Solis. I can't speak highly enough of this book for any lovers of Chaos Magick. Utterly original and verges on astounding... It has limited numbers in print, so grab it quick...

 

For Beginners who just want to know how to start, I suggest All of Phil Hine's works, and especially Oven Ready Chaos which is available as a free PDF with a google search, and is a great Intro.

 

For people who want some great Philosophy Then Ramsey Dukes books are superb. Blast and SSOTBME are quite brilliant reads although not really 'practical'...

 

Have Fun.

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[Cat Pillar]

Although I don't practice Chaos Magick, I have Liber Null/Psychonaut and Condensed Chaos by Phil Hine (which I believe is essentially Oven Ready Chaos, just the print form of it.)

 

They're both good reads. I still want to read The Illuminatus! Trilogy.

[Seth Ananda]

I definitely second SlackerBee's suggestion to work with what you get 'good' vibes from, but would like to add that some systems work with 'dark' energies very Intensively, and this can be very rewarding on many levels. Sure, Its a bit like jumping in the deep end, but I am usually all for that. I would say if you feel 'drawn' or attracted to a system of magick then give it a go.

 

Daimonic Reality and Visual Magick are both great books by the way...

 

 

Another book I might add is 'Generation Hex' which is like a compilation of biographies, based on a number of Younger Magicians Magickal careers, experiments, thoughts, experiences and so on... There are some really brilliant articles in there, showing {in some cases} just how far one can stretch or alter traditions, sometimes with startling results...

 

Seth.

[RiverSnake]

I definitely second SlackerBee's suggestion to work with what you get 'good' vibes from, but would like to add that some systems work with 'dark' energies very Intensively, and this can be very rewarding on many levels.

 

A fellow practitioner of mine recently related to me that in his experience he found that the majority of Ritualistic Magic is Black Magic.....or very close to it. I was wondering if you could elaborate on this.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited August 28, 2012 by OldGreen

[Seth Ananda]

OldGreen, to me thats, Um... Stupid?

 

Lol, sorry to sound flippant, but there are many many 'stupid' magicians out there, with all their really 'informed' opinions. Many of them rarely practice what they dis, and probably rarely practice anything.

 

Some have just bought a particular traditions dogmas {the one they ascribe to} and like regular church goers, don't really think outside of that.

 

Can you yourself think of multiple cases of possible Rituals that are not Black Magick? I can.

 

Many rituals are purely to set space to Honour and connect with Natural forces, some are to transform the Magician, some are to help one familiarise oneself with the subtle realms, some are to work change of 'good' or 'eeevviiiillll'!!!

[Cookie Monster]

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Edited May 5, 2021 by Ocean Form

[theurgy]

Having practiced Chaos Magick extensively for 15 years and within the most "cutting-edge" Order (I.O.T.) I can say that there are some pros and cons to embarking on this path.

 

The major pro is the training you get in trance techniques and you also learn general semantics through working with meta-belief and paradigm-shifting. This is good training for the mind. Helps instill critical thinking and BS-meter.

 

Something that began to bother me about chaos magic in general is that it tends to descend into dilettantism fairly quickly. It is my opinion that one's depth of experience within a paradigm is what will generate the results. As a wise man once said: "if you are looking for water in the desert it is better to dig one deep well than many shallow holes."

 

Paradigm shifting is all well and good but without a deep understanding of each paradigm it becomes nothing more than New Age eclecticism. A Huna ritual one week. A Shamanic Soul retrieval another week. Ad infinitum. To me this sends a confusing message to the subjective mind and waters down the results.

 

MOST chaos magicians I have worked with personally and extensively have plateaued in their Work and are deluding themselves. In short, they like to think of themselves as a powerful Magicians but their lack of discipline, drug addiction, ego, perverted morality tells me otherwise. I wouldn't trust my kids with a vast majority of them. Know what? I used to be the same way myself--until I realized I wasn't growing spiritually.

 

It is also my view that the Chaos Magick egregore is extremely parasitic, and feeds off the magician and will drive the practitioner to a stage where they must "take refuge" (as the Buddhists say) in a Tradition of some sort to expand beyond the plateau. It's amazing how broke and how much bad luck these supposed magical "bad-asses" really have, lol.

 

Now I will contradict myself. I say if you are drawn to Chaos Magick then DO IT! It will take you on a journey and then it should write itself out of a job at which point, you won't need it anymore.

 

OR

 

If I were starting out from scratch, I would look into Joseph Lisiewski's works on magic in general and Old System Magic in particular. IMHO you would be FAR better off starting with this than Chaos Magick if it resonates with you.

 

Good Luck.

[eye_of_the_storm]

I have spent some time at http://digimob.forumotion.net/

 

and browsed maybe 100+ 'occult' books

 

browsed the first chapter or so... to find as OldGreen said... via his friend... the majority of Ritualistic Magic is Black Magic

 

Now some will say.... oh don't be silly... there is no difference between white and black magic.... really?

 

Blood sacrifice is the same as honouring nature? (extremes yes...but it does happen)

 

Seth: Many rituals are purely to set space to Honour and connect with Natural forces, some are to transform the Magician, some are to help one familiarise oneself with the subtle realms...etc

 

Hmm... never came across...honouring nature once in any of those books

 

In the introductions that I read... never alluded to anything of the sort...

 

Perhaps again... I have been unfortunate / or fortunate in my searching...

[eye_of_the_storm]

I agree with theurgys last post

 

Particularly the parasitic element...

 

With a number of systems having been channeled (possessed)? by what?

 

and for what purpose...

 

Worship / devotion only benefits the energy vampire

 

Making contracts with demonic beings etc... who may even take on an angelic persona - will rarely benefit you in the end.... probably not too dissimilar to making contracts with the MOB...haha

 

I don't mean to scare anyone

 

I am hear to say YE ARE GODS.

Edited August 28, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Seth Ananda]

Theurgy, I couldn't agree more on most of your points.

Most Chaos Magick practitioners I have met were poor or unemployed bong heads. Sad really.

But is it any wonder that the lower demographic of society gets attracted to Magick? The disempowered will be attracted to anything that offers power [whether it delivers the goods or not].

And I wan't to add that mos't Chaos Magician bong heads are far more interesting and have had far more interesting experiences than your average boring bong head. So in my book, its still a step in the right direction.

 

And I have seen people do something entirely different with Chaos Magick, and make something quite beautiful from it, which is why I am a fan.

 

About wealth though. What about a powerful umbundu sorcerer living in a poor village, who is content to help his people with his skills? Is his social standing proof of anything? Mind you, he probably has a certain nobility of spirit found lacking in many 'modern' day Magicians...

 

I fully support 'paradigm shifting' but believe that one should be willing to spend many many years mastering that paradigm and its perspectives... Some paradigms though are awfully similar so any work in that paradigm region is basically digging the same well.

 

I Never looked at Liseweskis work as seeing Hyatts name across anything tends to turn me off... Maybe I'll have a peek.

 

 

White Wolf ROA. I don't think you know what you are talking about, very much at all in this thread. Not trying to be rude, but have you actually practised anything? You are regurgitating what sounds like Christian paranoia...

 

 

Devotion is not Vampiric in general, as it charges up the both of you, and creates the connection needed. Your fear sounds like the fear of someone who has read and not practised, and who has then made 'conclusions' based on a bunch of 'ideas' rather than experiences.

 

There are many Nature worship Rituals. Just because you didn't find them in one place doesn't mean that they don't exist, or that you can't make them up even....

 

And finally, making contact with Demonic beings can not be understood till you have done it. One can learn a great great deal from such practices.

[theurgy]

Seth--Indeed. Ironically I wouldn't be where I am today without Chaos Magick! This is why I say that if CM resonates with anyone very strongly one might as well take the plunge. In my personal experience, every magician regardless of the system chosen will obtain initial results as they push their boundaries but this has a limited shelf-life if you will. I have noted that ALL magicians (CMs quite early on) run out of magical juice and then must put in serious WORK to move forward.

 

What could this be? I feel it is the Higher Self unfolding within the practitioner and forcing him/her to choose the path of union with their divine universal consciousness or be crushed under the ever-multiplying desires of the lower-self. IMO every magician will be presented with this critical choice and if they remain attached to magic, disaster awaits. Crowley is one example of a magician who simply REFUSED to cross over onto this path when his time came.

 

That being said, I ask beginners why wait? Why not pay tribute to the divinity inside you daily and start working towards union with your Holy Guardian Angel right now instead of years of dancing around the issue with Sponge Bob rituals and cocaine-powered sigil-launching techniques or group masturbation rituals and other excuses to act out repressed childhood fantasies whilst calling it magic?

 

Sure it's "fun" but if such activities cannot answer the questions: who am I? Where did I come from? and where am I going?--or--if they do not prepare one adequately for one's inevitable transition at the end of one's life (DEATH), then they are a distraction.

[宁]

i tried to read through the tread but all i got was a headache

 

what is it exactly that you do, guys? how? why?

[Cat Pillar]

Great posts, Theurgy!

 

Thank you for sharing your perspective on Chaos Magick. If I may ask, what do you practise these days?

 

Your point about the limited shelf-life of initial results is a really good one, and applies to more than magical systems.

 

The same thing is talked about in meditative traditions as well, the point where it seems like no progress is being made. This will separate the devoted from the dabbler, as it takes perserverence and dedication to push on even when it feels like there's nothing gained by doing so.