Ritualistic Magic? Whats the point?

[eye_of_the_storm]

@ Seth Ananda

 

White Wolf ROA. I don't think you know what you are talking about, very much at all in this thread. Not trying to be rude, but have you actually practiced anything? You are regurgitating what sounds like Christian paranoia...

 

Paranoia... not quite... reflection mostly // my lack of experiential knowing is rather evident by the questions I was asking earlier... though I will speculate upon what I have encountered/read thus far.

 

Some people here are trying to gauge whether or not it is worthwhile/ necessary/ helpful for ones spiritual development.... and how so

 

The response so far hasn't really addressed these

 

As you so highly recommend it and proclaim your vast practice/experience of it... I assumed you'd be willing to share some insight...

 

generally the present generation builds up the achievements of the past...

 

What if all those folks you have read etc... the foundation of your own practice... simply told you to fk off?

 

that is quite alright though... just be clear about it... I'll move on.

 

Devotion is not Vampiric in general, as it charges up the both of you, and creates the connection needed. Your fear sounds like the fear of someone who has read and not practised, and who has then made 'conclusions' based on a bunch of 'ideas' rather than experiences.

 

Fear isn't really a part of the equation... it just appears to me at this time, unfruitful/unwise to connect myself with unknown...not generally but sometimes vampiric entities

 

Devotion to anything other than the Inner Self...The Supreme Reality... is to miss the mark I believe.

 

There are many Nature worship Rituals. Just because you didn't find them in one place doesn't mean that they don't exist, or that you can't make them up even....

 

Worship... I equate with surrendering ones sovereignty

 

Honour/ Respect is fine

 

Edit for purposes of clarity

Edited August 28, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

i tried to read through the tread but all i got was a headache

 

what is it exactly that you do, guys? how? why?

 

Its called a mystery school for a reason hahaha

[JustARandomPanda]

Dunno if my contribution will be worth anything as I've only recently begun researching this very topic in order to get started. How odd that within only a few weeks of my interest in it this thread should turn up. Anyway...here's my 2 cents at the moment.


Ritualistic Magic has a long history in most societies around the globe and across time. Chaos Magick is only the latest phase. Typically by people who like the idea of going against the grain of whatever society (usually Western) they happen to be in.

People live in the world of the 5 senses (6 if you include thoughts/thought-forms). We can't practice what we don't have direct experience with. People don't have day-to-day experiences of relating concretely to Formlessness, etc. Formlessness is too abstract and thus is seldom a good tool for training in attaining higher consciousness/awareness.


So we use Ritual as another tool in the box to help us learn about the mundane, everyday world we live in as well as higher realities.

Ritual Magic is also known by the older name Theurgy.

In Western society one can read works by the Neo-Platonists explaining the uses of Theurgy to return to the Absolute, The Ein Sof, Brahman, Tao, etc. To put it in Taoist terms it is a tool to use in realizing the Tao.

Ideally in Theurgy one has already trained to a level where he/she has steadied the mind via concentration meditation and brings this developed skill into the realm of ritual action.

In short, by invoking specific patterns in specific movements with stilled awareness one's consciousness is aided toward being elevated to a higher level - as Plotinus would say - Returning to the One (aka God-Realization).

In this regard it is similar in some ways to the Tantric practice of Deity-Identification. The goals are similar. The meditator by identifying with a specific Deity is hoping to embody the qualities that Deity represents. So Buddhist tantrics will use a lot of Bodhisattvas and Buddhas for this purpose. Muslims similarly will invoke the 99 Names of Allah.
.



The idea as I understand it is to use Ritual to get us to the point where we don't need it anymore. Once it has served it's purpose - where every waking moment is actually realized as Embodying the One (we're getting close to Wu Wei here too imo - they may in fact be identical) like one does in the Ritual then it can be set aside.

But most people doing ritual magic seldom have the kind of concentrated awareness "chops" to really use the tool of ritual magic for it's intended purpose. Most people simply go through the motions and stay stuck at that level. I suspect this is one reason why the Buddha mentioned Ritual alone will not bring about enlightenment. Any action made with unskilled awareness will only net you more of the same.


The best explanation for understanding the theory of WHY ritual can actually help you realize the Tao that I've ever found is from the modern-day Hermetic Druid John Michael Greer.

He has two books that address precisely the subject of this thread.

They are:

Learning Ritual Magic: Fundamental Theory and Practice for the Solitary Apprentice

Circles of Power: Ritual Magic in the Western Tradition

Circles of Power started out as a theory chapter in Learning Ritual Magic but very soon he realized it was so extensive it deserved its own book. It's a thick book.

Some other recommended works for understanding ritual-work:

Mantra Yoga and Primal Sound: Secret of Seed (Bija) Mantras

The Esoteric Structure of the Alphabet and it's Hidden Mystical Language

Magickal Use of Thought-Forms: A Proven System of Mental and Spirtual Empowerment (awesome book but you'd better have your concentration meditation chops down COLD!)

Theurgy and the Soul: The Neoplatonism of Iamblichus

Philosophy and Theurgy in Late Antiquity

On the Mysteries of the Egyptians, Chaldeans and Assyrians

The Golden Chain: An Anthology of Pythagorian and Platonic Philosophy

If you wonder about the last recommendation let me sneak in the Amazon reviewers points

This new anthology by a Lithuanian scholar provides readers with a collection of fundamental texts by Plotinus, Jamblichus, Porphyry and others. Usually, these texts are not easily available to non-specialists. As a general reader, one may gain access --thanks to Uzdavinys-- to the essential teachings of Platonists and Neo-Platonists. But the main merit of this book is that it clearly demonstrates that Platonism used to be much more than a mere philosophy, in the modern and reductive sense of the term. Platonism was a spiritual way leading to the One. This is most often missed by academics who flatten Platonic and Neo-Platonic teachings down to the level of rational dialectics. In light of this book we understand how Platonism could be integratred into the Jewish, Christian and Muslim intellectual traditions in a way in which no secular or rationalistic philosophy can.

and

 

 

The Golden Chain: An Anthology Of Pythagorean And Platonic Philosophy by Algis Uzdavinys (a Research Fellow at the Institute of Culture, Philosophy, and Arts) reveals that Platonic and Pythagorean philosophy is not directly equitable with our contemporary concept of "rationalism" and therefore devoid of any spiritual content. Rather, Platonic and Pythagorean philosophy in ancient Greece was seen as a way of life and as a means of spiritual realization. The object in Hellenic times was to establish for its practitioners of the philosophy of Plato and Pythagoras a harmony with the cosmos, purifying their souls and leading them into union with the Divine Intellect and the One. The Hellenic philosophies were closer to the Eternal Mysteries than to the 20th century fashions of Western logicians. The Golden Chain is informed and informative reading which is most especially recommended to the attention of philosophy students and the non-specialist general reader with an interest in how philosophy can free us from the chains of desire driven materialism and the rationalized hubris that is such a hallmark of contemporary western cultures.

Seen is this light it's easy to see the philosophy profs I took classes from in University were just as clueless about the real truths Plato and his lineages were teaching as are most pastors, tv preachers and imams of today are about their source 'holy' documents.

 

*****

 

edit: correcting typos

Edited February 10, 2015 by JustARandomPanda

[JustARandomPanda]

That being said, I ask beginners why wait? Why not pay tribute to the divinity inside you daily and start working towards union with your Holy Guardian Angel right now instead of years of dancing around the issue with Sponge Bob rituals and cocaine-powered sigil-launching techniques or group masturbation rituals and other excuses to act out repressed childhood fantasies whilst calling it magic?

 

Well sure. But the same could be said of most tantric practices or even Qigong and Inner Martial Arts (now there's more than a few guys acting out their Alpha-Male-soaked fantasies - maybe a lot more than the cocaine-powered up, Sponge Bob sigil makers) if those are not done with developed awareness. But I don't see many people suggesting we give up Qigong or Inner Martial Arts to sit on our butts on a cushion for hours on end daily because that's a more direct path to Direct Union with the Tao. We don't expect most people to be Qigong/Inner MA experts since they lack the Pure-Motivation-for-Direct Union of Taoist monks but that doesn't mean we tell them those practices are useless in helping them eventually get there and of improving their lives in the meantime. Likewise when someone trains in and uses ritual magic correctly. It is a type of legitimate gong fu practice just as much as Qi gong fu practice.

 

There are even specific Taoist Lineages where Magic Ritual is a legit part of Taoist training of aligning with (and eventually realizing) the te of the Tao.

 

Check out this Nov. 5, 2010 NY Times story of the revival of Taoism and authentic Taoist Rituals (Theurgy) that is sweeping across modern-day China.

 

 

********

 

edit: correcting typos

Edited February 10, 2015 by JustARandomPanda

[JustARandomPanda]

Here's a Youtube vid of John Michael Greer on Western Mystery School Teachings. Maybe it's just me but I suspect most Taoist monks and nuns would agree with a lot of what he says.

 

 

Using examples from nature as a touchstone, Greer takes readers on a

journey into the seven laws of the mystery traditions:

 

 

the Law of Wholeness

 

the Law of Flow

 

the Law of Balance

 

the Law of Limits

 

the Law of Cause and Effect

 

the Law of Planes

 

the Law of Evolution

 

Greer explains each law, offering meditation, an affirmation, and a

theme for reflection, to show how the seven laws can bring meaning

and power into our everyday lives.

 

Mystery Teachings from the Living Earth reveals one of the great secrets of the mysteries—that the laws of nature are also the laws of spirit.

[theurgy]

.

Edited May 31, 2019 by theurgy

[eye_of_the_storm]

Edited August 28, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[The Observer]

No disrespect intended to any Magick people here but is it stupid for me to doubt the legitimacy of Magick practices in the West versus Oriental practices because the Western ones seem like something made up or mashed together? Granted a lot of Eastern practices are fusions of different things but the lineages seem longer and more continuous than the Magick traditions.

[RiverSnake]

Many rituals are purely to set space to Honour and connect with Natural forces, some are to transform the Magician, some are to help one familiarise oneself with the subtle realms, some are to work change of 'good' or 'eeevviiiillll'!!!

 

Thanks for the response Seth. May all your Inner and Outer workings be in harmony with the Way.

 

-My 2 cents

Edited August 28, 2012 by OldGreen

[Thunder_Gooch]

I have heard of no western traditions producing anything meaninful from their students or their "masters".

 

No sense in wasting your time on a practice if no one ever has gotten any meaninful results from it.

 

Just my $0.02

[Disabled Not Broken]

come man Western Tradition is not Ritualistic Magic , it called ceremonial Magic!

 

The difference between Ritual Magic and ceremonial Magic ( as Kabalah ) , is that in ceremonial there is Evocation and invocation .

Opposed the Ritual Magic can be Nature Magic .

Initiation into Hermetics is a great book from a great magus .

 

Disabled Not Broken when you said Egregores you mean Creating Magickal Entities ???

That's i understand !

 

"Hands on Chaos Magic" is a great book and it can make magick to actual

work !

Servitors are entity creations- but they can be fed via egregore current/streams... deliberately-- or not

[Disabled Not Broken]

I have heard of no western traditions producing anything meaninful from their students or their "masters".

 

No sense in wasting your time on a practice if no one ever has gotten any meaninful results from it.

 

Just my $0.02

 

"They"... say a lot of things..

 

If you would have asked me, I would have told you something completely opposite

 

best way to find out?

 

Do it

[Disabled Not Broken]

OldGreen, to me thats, Um... Stupid?

 

Lol, sorry to sound flippant, but there are many many 'stupid' magicians out there, with all their really 'informed' opinions. Many of them rarely practice what they dis, and probably rarely practice anything.

 

Some have just bought a particular traditions dogmas {the one they ascribe to} and like regular church goers, don't really think outside of that.

 

Can you yourself think of multiple cases of possible Rituals that are not Black Magick? I can.

 

Many rituals are purely to set space to Honour and connect with Natural forces, some are to transform the Magician, some are to help one familiarise oneself with the subtle realms, some are to work change of 'good' or 'eeevviiiillll'!!!

 

Indeed- Intention paints/taints the color of the magick

 

I can have- 2 white candles

 

I can heal someone, with one

 

and maim someone else, with the other white candle

 

Io Kaos 156/93

[Disabled Not Broken]

 

Something that began to bother me about chaos magic in general is that it tends to descend into dilettantism fairly quickly. It is my opinion that one's depth of experience within a paradigm is what will generate the results. As a wise man once said: "if you are looking for water in the desert it is better to dig one deep well than many shallow holes."

 

Paradigm shifting is all well and good but without a deep understanding of each paradigm it becomes nothing more than New Age eclecticism. A Huna ritual one week. A Shamanic Soul retrieval another week. Ad infinitum. To me this sends a confusing message to the subjective mind and waters down the results.

 

 

Bingo!

[Thunder_Gooch]

"What are you doing? Why are you doing it? Where is this going? If you know, you’ll succeed. If you don’t, you won’t."

 

 

- Jed McKenna - 'Spiritual Enlightenment:The Damnedest Thing'

 

 

 

 

 

 

"How long has your guru been teaching?"

 

"Well, uh, over thirty years."

 

"And how many of his students have achieved enlightenment?"

 

"Well, uh..."

 

"That you know of personally?"

 

"Well, uh, I never..."

 

"That you've heard of?"

 

"It's not"

 

"That there were rumors of?"

 

"I don't think..."

 

"What is it they're doing, Martin? The recipe for enlightenment they're promoting - what is it?"

 

"Uh, well, meditation and knowledge, basically."

 

"And in thirty years they've never held someone up and said, 'Look at this guy! He's enlightened and we got him there!' In thirty years, they don't have one? Don't you think they should have, like, an entire army of enlightened guys to show off by now?"

 

"Well, it's not..."

 

"After thirty years they should have a few dozen generations of enlightened people. Even with only a quarter of them becoming teachers, they should have flooded the world by now, mathematically speaking, don't you think? I'm not asking all this as a teacher myself, mind you. I'm just asking as a consumer, or a consumer's advocate. Don't you think it's reasonable to ask to know a teacher's success rate? The proof is in the pudding, right? Didn't you ask them about the fruit of their teachings when you started with them?"

 

"Well, that's not..."

 

"Don't you think it's reasonable to ask? They're in the enlightenment business, aren't they? Or did I misunderstand you? Do they have something else going?"

 

"Nooo, but they..."

 

"If Consumer Reports magazine did a report on which spiritual organizations delivered as promised, don't you suppose that the first statistic listed under each organization would be success rating? Like, here are a hundred randomly selected people who started with the organization five years ago and here's where they are today. For instance, thirty-one have moved up in the organization, twenty-seven have moved on, thirty-nine are still with it but not deeply committed and three have entered abiding non-dual awareness. Okay, three percent - that's a number you can compare. But this organization of yours would have big fat goose egg, wouldn't they? And not just out of a hundred, but out of hundreds of thousands - millions, probably. Am I wrong?

 

- Jed McKenna - 'Spiritual Enlightenment:The Damnedest Thing'

Edited August 28, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Disabled Not Broken]

No disrespect intended to any Magick people here but is it stupid for me to doubt the legitimacy of Magick practices in the West versus Oriental practices because the Western ones seem like something made up or mashed together? Granted a lot of Eastern practices are fusions of different things but the lineages seem longer and more continuous than the Magick traditions.

All of it... is Yoga

[Thunder_Gooch]

DNB,

 

I'd be interested in hearing your best examples of magick that produced some repeatable, direct cause and effect, stimulus and response type phenomenon.

 

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing.

 

If there is however I'd like to see your notes and try to recreate it myself.

Edited August 28, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy

[Disabled Not Broken]

DNB,

 

I'd be interested in hearing the best examples of magick producing some repeatable. direct cause and effect, stimulus and responce type phenominon.

 

To the best of my knowledge there is no such thing.

 

If there is however I'd like to see your notes and try to recreate it myself.

 

Certainly, but by 're-creating' my results, in your personal laboratory, is a hit and miss venture

 

each of us cut their teeth on their own personal paradigms

 

if one female is raised in a moslem home

 

another guy, who is gay, is raised in a strict pentacostal home

 

and the third guy, is raised in an atheist home, all 3-- will get varying results

 

When I was a pre-teen, I would scry in my mom's cabinet mirror and an old lady named KaBeedee would teach me things

 

I learned about Quantum Mechanics, Planetary alignments... etc,

 

30 years forward--I would often conjure Belial in a mirror, and question His presence at the start of the Big Bang- some of these 'Consciousness" are that ancient

 

I learned cobra breathes, and various asanas from interviewing foreign intelligences.. long before they became popular in the western world

 

just the synchronicities, border on miraculous

 

magick is like nailing a chunk of jello to a wall

 

-elusive

 

BTW, I wrote 19 Books on my Magickal experiences- all free downloads on pdf

Links all over my Blog...

Explicit details, for your laboratory work

[Thunder_Gooch]

Certainly, but by 're-creating' my results, in your personal laboratory, is a hit and miss venture

 

each of us cut their teeth on their own personal paradigms

 

if one female is raised in a moslem home

 

another guy, who is gay, is raised in a strict pentacostal home

 

and the third guy, is raised in an atheist home, all 3-- will get varying results

 

When I was a pre-teen, I would scry in my mom's cabinet mirror and an old lady named KaBeedee would teach me things

 

I learned about Quantum Mechanics, Planetary alignments... etc,

 

30 years forward--I would often conjure Belial in a mirror, and question His presence at the start of the Big Bang- some of these 'Consciousness" are that ancient

 

I learned cobra breathes, and various asanas from interviewing foreign intelligences.. long before they became popular in the western world

 

just the synchronicities, border on miraculous

 

magick is like nailing a chunk of jello to a wall

 

-elusive

 

BTW, I wrote 19 Books on my Magickal experiences- all free downloads on pdf

Links all over my Blog...

Explicit details, for your laboratory work

 

I am not sure those are the sorts of results I am looking for, but thanks anyway.

 

I was referring more to effecting reality in some tangible observable way, not gaining insights.

[Disabled Not Broken]

I am not sure those are the sorts of results I am looking for, but thanks anyway.

 

I was referring more to effecting reality in some tangible observable way, not gaining insights.

 

Well, I had a few enemies, and now, they no longer exist...

 

was it magick?

fate?

god?

coincidence?

 

How can one actually prove anything?

 

I did a ritual to find my "Twin Flame", love of my life- and married her a short time later...

 

again- magick?

 

Those who oppose what I say, will tell me, that magick can not be proven to be the catalyst- ...of miraculous healing:

 

[Mom's Macular Degeneration - in 1 eye- Healed]

 

[A Young female's brain tumor- Healed].

 

[Many many many more!]

 

Doctors tell me "sometimes, miracles happen- who knows?"

 

So again:

 

was it magick?

fate?

god?

coincidence?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Well, I had a few enemies, and now, they no longer exist...

 

was it magick?

fate?

god?

coincidence?

 

How can one actually prove anything?

 

I did a ritual to find my "Twin Flame", love of my life- and married her a short time later...

 

again- magick?

 

Those who oppose what I say, will tell me, that magick can not be proven to be the catalyst- ...of miraculous healing:

 

[Mom's Macular Degeneration - in 1 eye- Healed]

 

[A Young female's brain tumor- Healed].

 

[Many many many more!]

 

Doctors tell me "sometimes, miracles happen- who knows?"

 

So again:

 

was it magick?

fate?

god?

coincidence?

 

 

DNB,

 

There is no doubt in my mind that meditation, and exploring inner mental realms, imagery etc may provide profound insights into the nature of reality.

 

Also meditation may help you develop your intuition to know when to act, and how, and when not to act, etc.

 

But no amount of lighting candles, and chanting spells, and drawing sigils, seals, or anything else is going to have any reproducible effect on reality.

[Disabled Not Broken]

DNB,

 

There is no doubt in my mind that meditation, and exploring inner mental realms, imagery etc may provide profound insights into the nature of reality.

 

Also meditation may help you develop your intuition to know when to act, and how, and when not to act, etc.

 

But no amount of lighting candles, and chanting spells, and drawing sigils, seals, or anything else is going to have any reproducible effect on reality.

 

Those are only external tools- for internal focus.

 

...if a child found my altar tools- he couldn't make his mom vanish lol

 

Check out this thread:

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24681-beginners-real-magick-instruction-qa/

[theurgy]

To all the nay-sayers and doubters (on an esoteric Taoist forum no less) do not limit yourselves! Those who disbelieve in magic are as common as trash--there's nothing novel about REFUSING to believe in something. Millions of people are doing this each and every day. It doesn't make you a real thinker by refusing to think. This is the age we live in unfortunately. Skepticism and nihilism are all the rage and yet those that parrot such consider themselves free-thinkers. What a joke. When you find yourself rejecting anything out of hand ask yourself: have I reasoned my skepticism out for myself? Or is this a stance that MAY have been indoctrinated into me by the society I was born into? Have I REALLY investigated this subject or am I just too lazy and must therefore simply take a position of feigned wisdom?

 

Those who refuse to entertain a different perspective are very much like an infant screaming "NO!" as a spoonful of milk is brought to their lips. To them I say, taste and see! It is not intelligent nor wise to dismiss ANYTHING without thoroughly researching it and testing it within the laboratory of your Being.

[Thunder_Gooch]

To all the nay-sayers and doubters (on an esoteric Taoist forum no less) do not limit yourselves! Those who disbelieve in magic are as common as trash--there's nothing novel about REFUSING to believe in something. Millions of people are doing this each and every day. It doesn't make you a real thinker by refusing to think. This is the age we live in unfortunately. Skepticism and nihilism are all the rage and yet those that parrot such consider themselves free-thinkers. What a joke. When you find yourself rejecting anything out of hand ask yourself: have I reasoned my skepticism out for myself? Or is this a stance that MAY have been indoctrinated into me by the society I was born into? Have I REALLY investigated this subject or am I just too lazy and must therefore simply take a position of feigned wisdom?

 

Those who refuse to entertain a different perspective are very much like an infant screaming "NO!" as a spoonful of milk is brought to their lips. To them I say, taste and see! It is not intelligent nor wise to dismiss ANYTHING without thoroughly researching it and testing it within the laboratory of your Being.

 

I think it's reasonable to ask for some evidence before investing time in a practice, don't you?

 

There are a lot of silly Taoist practices too like drinking urine through your nose, and water with the penis. I see no masters that represent those practices that have accomplished anything meaningful either, so I don't attempt them.

[Practitioner]

I think it's reasonable to ask for some evidence before investing time in a practice, don't you?

 

There are a lot of silly Taoist practices too like drinking urine through your nose, and water with the penis. I see no masters that represent those practices that have accomplished anything meaningful either, so I don't attempt them.

 

He is not asking you to drink urine through your nose. He is not asking you to absorb water through your penis. He is asking you to be open and explore for yourself the possibilities of this certain kind of thinking and acting.

 

You're a big fan of alchemical practices. For many schools that start to harness and cultivate the "internal elixir", a sign of developing power in your practice is intense heat being generated in the LDT. You also know about this. What is the sign that you believe and know that your training gives you results? What if I were to say, "this is just a bunch of BS.. sitting down and looking like some kind of mad man will never ever give any kind of results, and only fools practice this sort of thing!"?

 

Of course, your reaction would be to say that it did give you results, and that you did notice something that did not exist before. But you would be unable to ever ever convince the skeptic to ever try and practice to the extent that he would ever experience something remarkable. Well, I am here to tell you that magic works the same way.

 

In order to progress in any rate in these sorts of practices, you have to have a willingness to experiment, an open mind, and a beginner's attitude to it all. If you pre-judge whatever you're doing, obviously you are screwing any chance at success you'll ever have; this is because you are working with the power of intent itself. When you divide your intent upon itself, it is the same thing as a house. It falls completely flat. Also certain kinds of people will find much more success in certain traditions, and paradigms of framework than others. It is always this way.

 

The thing about how magic works is that it will always involve synchronicity. You do a ritual and you find your "true love", or you have a sudden windfall of money very unexpectedly. Can you prove that these were completely cause and effect? No. Or that one can determine completely cause and effect? No. What will happen as you grow in skill is that there will be a ton of synchrous events that happen to you that cannot be determined by a linear mode of thinking. What you will notice, however, is that certain things may tend to happen to you more and more.

 

No scientist in the whole world could ever prove to you the effects of so-and-so are solely determined by some sort of ritual. These tend to be intensely personal experiences, and you yourself cannot "prove" that it works beyond observing the greater amount of synchrous events. Only you can be an accurate judge of how things worked out or not. Now I know that this is poppycock to you most probably, but remember you do so very much believe in reincarnation, immortals, and the spirit world and so and so. Tell me, can it be so very different from who you are right now?

Edited August 29, 2012 by Practitioner