et-thoughts Posted August 26, 2012 Two comments... "a book for rulers on how to govern their people humanely...." 1 - Each free individual is a ruler of their destiny 2- Knowledge and learning can be the root cause of enlightenment or something else dissent stems from learning something evil to be harmful to society AND doing it. consent stems from learning something good to be helpful to society AND doing it. - Knowledge and learning can be the root cause of enlightenment or something else Know what to cultivate and cultivate it... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 26, 2012 You're say I'm incorrect but you fail to give a source to back anything up. Put your money where your mouth is Aaron... Note that proving the veracity of a statement (or not) does not change the veracity of the statement! Oh and for the record the issue of whether you are correct or incorrect is a whole different issue from what I espouse here... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrtiger Posted August 26, 2012 Note that proving the veracity of a statement (or not) does not change the veracity of the statement! Oh and for the record the issue of whether you are correct or incorrect is a whole different issue from what I espouse here... Clear as mud then! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 26, 2012 Clear as mud then! Well lets see if we can settle the sediments from the water or somehow filter the key substance... What I invited everyone here to focus on was the judicial notion that 'one has to prove to others the veracity of what one states in order to validate the veracity of what one states'... sometimes it may be impossible to prove it to others and that does not change the veracity. That someone '...fails to give a source to back anything up' does little to change what be the truth of the matter. I am sure that those where will see how someone innocent get condemned because they can't prove their innocence and the guilty go free because no-one can prove them guilt ... neither changes the fact of them being innocent or guilty... A while back I got into some interesting dialogues where the other placed the burden of proof on the claimant ... only when I made a claim but refused to place the burden of proof on the claimant when they made a claim... there I learned that sometimes proving it was more of a favor than a duty... it was up to them to accept the claim or reject it ... and that I had done what I needed to do by just telling them... hope that helps you understand what I said better... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted August 26, 2012 You're say I'm incorrect but you fail to give a source to back anything up. Put your money where your mouth is Aaron... Okay, let me connect the dots for you. Chuang Tzu lived in the 4th century bce. He mentioned Lao Tzu and other philosophers. Chuang Tzu had a fondness for Lao Tzu though, what we can gather from these dialogues is that Lao Tzu was more than likely real. The point you're missing is that I really don't care whether you believe he existed or not, my argument is still relevant and valid. If you want to continue the argument about his existence, then start your own thread. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 26, 2012 (edited) We're talking about the TTC it's purpose and who its aimed at. The subject of Lao Tzu's existance is very interesting, its been discussed in a couple threads. If mrtiger wants to discuss Lao Tzu's history instead of the point of this topic he should create a new topic. I get the feeling is mrtiger lives and breathes to nitpick and will probably do his best to derail, or pull most discussions away from there topic. Might be best to ignore him. Michael Edited August 26, 2012 by thelerner 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted August 27, 2012 We're talking about the TTC it's purpose and who its aimed at. The subject of Lao Tzu's existance is very interesting, its been discussed in a couple threads. If mrtiger wants to discuss Lao Tzu's history instead of the point of this topic he should create a new topic. I get the feeling is mrtiger lives and breathes to nitpick and will probably do his best to derail, or pull most discussions away from there topic. Might be best to ignore him. Michael done and done. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) I'd suggest finding a different copy and reading it again. thanks all i remember is an anecdote about lao and confucius meeting ("he's like a dragon!") but those are later in the book, probably written by students of chuang generations later chuang, in the chapters of the book attributed to him, didn't mention lao to my memory. aaron can you cite a chapter? that might be more helpful Edited August 27, 2012 by anamatva Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) Just to start, here is something from the treatment 4.2 (mountain over water, line 2) of the 1st wing of the 10 Wings of the Book of Changes (which by the way are highly debated as to how much actually existed before Confucius who is believed to have been a contemporary of Lao Tzu). "(The method to deal with) the young and ignorant is to nourish the correct (nature belonging to them). This accomplishes the service of the sage." (trans. by Legge, parentheses are his) The sage is not the ruler as the sage by nature does not seek such positions, though at the same time he does not shun responsibility and so leads when he cannot deny the position, or when the right people seek his guidance. Most of the advice in the early chapters talks about what the "Sage" or "Wise People" does/do to have proper influence on his community or sphere of influence. Due to the fact that influence becomes the interest of politicians, he speaks to them as well, as it is Lao Tzu's function as a Sage to nourish the wisdom of others, for the benefit of those people and society as a whole. By nourishing the wisdom of others, they may also become sages, and so he also gives guidance on how to handle this position of leadership, as well as the for those with "official power." I don't have all my resources with me right now to show how this appears in the early chapters, but you will probably find them easily with the right translation. ed. note: minor changes for readability. Edited August 27, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mrtiger Posted August 27, 2012 We're talking about the TTC it's purpose and who its aimed at. The subject of Lao Tzu's existance is very interesting, its been discussed in a couple threads. If mrtiger wants to discuss Lao Tzu's history instead of the point of this topic he should create a new topic. I get the feeling is mrtiger lives and breathes to nitpick and will probably do his best to derail, or pull most discussions away from there topic. Might be best to ignore him. Michael I'm here to challenge not to nit pick. It's nothing personal but it's obviously been taken that way and I've clearly bruised your egos. I'll leave you all to it. Good luck, long life and riches! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 27, 2012 chuang, in the chapters of the book attributed to him, didn't mention lao to my memory. aaron can you cite a chapter? that might be more helpful Hi, I was going to just read this thread and not make any comments but I think I can be of help here: (All that follows is from Burton Watson's translation) (Note: Lao Tan and Lao Tzu are the same person to Chuang Tzu.) Chapter 3 When Lao Tan died, Chin Shih went to mourn for him; but after giving three cries, he left the room. "Weren't you a friend of the Master?" asked Lao Tzu's disciples. Chapter 5 No-Toes told the story to Lao Tan. "Confucius certainly ... Chapter 7 Yang Tzu-chu went to see Lao Tan and said, Lao Tan said, "In comparison to the sage, ... That is basically all from the inner chapters, the chapters that have been attributed directly to Chuang Tzu. There are many more references in the other chapters. (Okay, I'm back to the view mode.) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 27, 2012 I'm here to challenge not to nit pick. It's nothing personal but it's obviously been taken that way and I've clearly bruised your egos. I'll leave you all to it. Good luck, long life and riches! The real challenge involves how to nourish the understanding of the ignorant... especially when the truth exposes their ignorance... it is at the same time nothing personal... (one just exposes what be) and something quite personal (what be related to someone in particular). It gets even more challenging when the understanding involves exposing a delusional fantasy that keeps them from appreciating what be going on especially when 'they' think to know what 'they' evidently do not know... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 27, 2012 Hi, I was going to just read this thread and not make any comments but I think I can be of help here: (All that follows is from Burton Watson's translation) (Note: Lao Tan and Lao Tzu are the same person to Chuang Tzu.) Chapter 3 When Lao Tan died, Chin Shih went to mourn for him; but after giving three cries, he left the room. "Weren't you a friend of the Master?" asked Lao Tzu's disciples. Chapter 5 No-Toes told the story to Lao Tan. "Confucius certainly ... Chapter 7 Yang Tzu-chu went to see Lao Tan and said, Lao Tan said, "In comparison to the sage, ... That is basically all from the inner chapters, the chapters that have been attributed directly to Chuang Tzu. There are many more references in the other chapters. (Okay, I'm back to the view mode.) oh wow thats a lot of references indeed, thanks for clearing that up marbles Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted August 27, 2012 (edited) I've given more info relating to this here for those interested. Essentially, saying that if Lao Tze advised rulers to make people "ignorant" (as it is so often translated), why would he also advised rulers to: 05 滌除玄覽, dī chú xuán lǎn, Wash, and eliminate, your profound introspections 06 能無疵乎?! néng wú cī hū?! Can you be without this disease? 07 愛民治國, ài mín zhì guō, Loving the less fortunate, govern the nation 08 能無知乎?! néng wú zhī hū?! Can you do this without academic knowledge? (chapter 10) Mind you, the mention of nations or rulers is rather rare in the DDJ, though leadership, as a community leader/role model, is often. Lao Tze, as a sage, wants to bring harmony to the people by teaching people proper wisdom, planting seeds for future sages to abound like lush greenery, continuing to sow the wisdom of Dao throughout. To do so it helps that he speaks to those who wield the most power and, by his virtue, he is not afraid to so. Edited August 27, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 27, 2012 I've given more info relating to this here for those interested. Essentially, saying that if Lao Tze advised rulers to make people "ignorant" (as it is so often translated), why would he also advised rulers to: 05 滌除玄覽, dī chú xuán lǎn, Wash, and eliminate, your profound introspections 06 能無疵乎?! néng wú cī hū?! Can you be without this disease? 07 愛民治國, ài mín zhì guō, Loving the less fortunate, govern the nation 08 能無知乎?! néng wú zhī hū?! Can you do this without academic knowledge? (chapter 10) Mind you, the mention of nations or rulers is rather rare in the DDJ, though leadership, as a community leader/role model, is often. Lao Tze, as a sage, wants to bring harmony to the people by teaching people proper wisdom, planting seeds for future sages to abound like lush greenery, continuing to sow the wisdom of Dao throughout. To do so it helps that he speaks to those who wield the most power and, by his virtue, he is not afraid to so. In one of the threads I read someone commented that to make people "ignorant" referred to the harmful ways ... make people "ignorant" of the harmful ways ... in a more constructive way cultivate wisdom in each one to do what needs be done... that they may do it with ease... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
