The External World is Ultimately Unsatisfactory

[Lucky7Strikes]

IMO, there is a lot of effort in Western spirituality to bridge the gap between one's external desires/attachments and spiritual endeavors. I find this to be just a cunning manipulation of spiritual teachings to justify one's impulses. You can see this when it comes to worshipping one's own body (modern versions of yoga), collecting spiritual jargon/books, irresponsible sexuality, or just irresponsible behavior under ideas (and not experiences) of popular sayings like "we are all one/God/karmic force/ruled by stars or whatever."

 

For a earnest seeker, there has to be a deep understanding that the yearning for wholeness and expansion we have within (this has to be identified foremost) cannot ever be satisfied with external conditions. Since today's society is constructed upon consumerism and entertainment, the purpose of which is to convince your being that ultimate satisfaction is dependent on external situations, there are so many unconscious layers I find within myself affected by a misguided search outwards, whether it be vanquishing your foes, romantic love, triumph of the ego, popularity or the few of many supposed ultimate "goals" peddled into our awareness from birth by Western culture.

 

I am not advocating giving up material wealth or ending sexual desires and becoming a hermit, but the right understanding has to arise that the deep dissatisfaction of the human being cannot be appeased in any way by material or mental means. A significant shift has to happen where even the smallest investment one has in the outer world is turned inwards, without it we are forever bartering between our delusions of satisfaction out there somewhere and hobbyist attitudes towards spirituality. Perhaps at a certain point, the external world simply becomes a decoration.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[eye_of_the_storm]

What the thinker thinks, the prover proves.

 

Life is glorious! mental means is the only means

 

Peace to you Brother.

 

Edited August 28, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Aetherous]

"We experience the moment in this non-thinking state of awareness, a direct awareness of reality which leads to a spontaneity. Ultimately is born a joy which is no longer dependent on external circumstance. In this manner we are liberated."

- Daniel Odier

 

IMO, the mind is really the cause of dissatisfaction. Not what is "external". A cup of tea can be deeply satisfying...in fact, much of real life is very rewarding and fulfilling. The sense of being unwhole, or not yet satisfied is a product of the mind itself. No mind, no problem. In order for this idea to mean anything, it must be made experiential, through practical means. The practical means are: anytime you are thinking or feeling something, pay attention to novelty in the external world instead. Constantly disempower the mind. It's an opposite approach to the usual advice of "go inward", but it achieves the actual intended result. Going inward to most people means to enter the mind, to strengthen it...not pacify it. For instance, a beginning meditator finds a whole new slew of problems...not the inner peace they were actually seeking. Attention is drawn "within" to their painful butt, numbing legs, to random thoughts popping up, to emotions that they didn't know were there. This can be cathartic, but it also probably isn't what they were actually after.

 

I agree with the idea of transcending the rollercoaster ride of success/failure that most assume is the path to happiness...but "the external world" (there is really no such thing, since awareness is inseparable from experience) is not the problem. The mind's tendency to attach to certain material things is the problem...that which is "within" is the problem...it's why Kim Kardashian freaks out if you don't give her the 24k gold facial she wanted. Or when she finally discovers that it doesn't improve the ugliness that goes along with spending 80 grand a year on beauty, or the fact that she will age and never look as good as she once did, for example. Those are the products of an individual mind grapsing at this and that. Products of being spoiled most of the time...products of the "control freak"...all has to do with her mind. There is nothing wrong with gold or money...those can be used for good things (to be clear, Lucky, I think we're pointing to the same thing).

 

When inner peace actually arises, outer causes of temporary happiness are seen to not be as fulfilling. Or at least, you are more resilient in letting go of those things you inevitably lose. If my favorite thing to do is "not as fulfilling" it doesn't mean that it's unenjoyable...not at all, it's still awesome...it just means that I am not going to throw a tantrum if I don't get to do it when I want to. Being happy and whole in each moment, pretty much regardless of what occurs whether internal or external, is the point of all of this.

 

So overall...it's good to have no mind. "The mind is ultimately unsatisfactory".

[eye_of_the_storm]

Mushin no shin (無心の心) - mind without mind

 

no mind does not exist ... just being fastidious... apologies

 

Scotty: The mind is really the cause of dissatisfaction...

 

The mind can also be the cause of bliss etc

 

We just have to learn to see differently

 

I think...

Edited August 28, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[eye_of_the_storm]

Mizu no Kokoro - mind like water

 

[The Observer]

I think that life is Yin and Yang. When you are awake, work, make love, socialize with others, argue, etc. that is the Yang phase. Too much of this and you will become tired. When you sleep, relax and meditate this is Yin. You go into the void and receive nourishment from Dao (in a more direct way anyways). When I have had too much Yang I become dissatisfied with the external world and go inside for nourishment. When I have had too much Yin I become restless and extend outwards to do things in the world.

[Aetherous]

But I think your practical approach is doomed. I don't exactly know what you mean by "mind". I say there's absolutely nothing wrong with what we in the west call "mind". But there is this user error.. a single dangerous idea that tears everything apart. Running the risk of sounding like a douche, you will need to find that idea. You can do it by "turning inwards", but not by trying to tame the mind! Those ox herding pictures in Zen are completely misunderstood by most people, which Ramana Maharshi tried to remedy without much of success. I speak from many, many years of experience.. of failure, using your methods.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about...

 

You don't know what I mean by mind?

 

You say there's "no external world" and this is a statement admitting to theoretical duality. It is neither right nor wrong, and I've never seen it help anyone.

 

How is it admitting to theoretical duality? Saying that there IS an external world would be admitting to it...thinking that the external world is separate from an internal world. It is not.

 

I think I agree with the points you make, but the way you say them, I think there's a great risk of missing the point entirely. "No mind" is not no mind. It's complicated..

 

I disagree with this view of both you and White Wolf. Why make it so complicated? It's not. Read the book in my signature.

[Ish]

There's the saying that the external world only arises due to the mind moving.

So it seems the true no mind or enlightenment ceases the mind on a much more fundamental level than simply having no thoughts arising.

However is this an attainment leading to yin spirit? I have certainly seen this criticism in some Taoist texts.

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[thelerner]

I think I'm happiest when I give up on being happy and just work on being satisfied. For example asking the question; if the state I'm in now lasted a very very long time, could I find a way to be at peace with it? Usually the answer ends up being yes, I could find a way and somehow that calms me down and brings some peace.

[Aetherous]

@scotty: I don't think it's complicated at all. I won't read that book. Also, I do not see the point in arguing over this. I hope you will respect that.

 

Well, you might not think it's complicated, but I still have no idea what you were trying to say. I also don't see a point in arguing, so have no idea why you came in here acting all argumentative and then refusing to explain yourself. So far, I have little to respect...I hope that can change.

 

In the meantime, I'm taking another break from this forum.

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Aaron]

I am not advocating giving up material wealth or ending sexual desires and becoming a hermit, but the right understanding has to arise that the deep dissatisfaction of the human being cannot be appeased in any way by material or mental means. A significant shift has to happen where even the smallest investment one has in the outer world is turned inwards, without it we are forever bartering between our delusions of satisfaction out there somewhere and hobbyist attitudes towards spirituality. Perhaps at a certain point, the external world simply becomes a decoration.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I think you've fallen into the Buddhist trap of viewing the world as an attachment that you must be rid of. This isn't the case, at least not in Taoism or most rational religions, in fact it's the opposite. In Taoism we are not taught to be rid of the world, but to diminish our desires and to understand the difference between needs and wants. If you are finding that you are not satisfied with what the world has to offer, I might suggest you need to reevaluate exactly what you need and want you want, and whether you might be confusing the two.

 

If something is making you unhappy, more often than not it's caused by desiring something you don't need. If we can learn to diminish our desires, then we can begin to diminish a lot of the pain and suffering in our lives. If we can cease to place value on things, then we will never be unhappy if we lose something. This isn't the same as ridding ourselves of material attachments, simply because we can't do this. So long as we live we'll need food, water, and air, all material attachments (clothes aren't a bad idea either). The problem is that, more often than not, we are tricked into believing that having a full belly and a safe place to sleep isn't enough, that we're missing something. We are told that the cure is pursuing God, Buddha,Tao, Allah,Money, Sex, and the list goes on, and we believe that somehow this is going to remove our dissatisfaction, when in fact it's the root cause of it.

 

Lao Tzu said "be done with knowledge" and that a good ruler "keeps his people ignorant" because he understood that the root cause of dissatisfaction is caused by our insatiable need for a solution to something that can't be solved. A child is happy, in fact very happy, even if they have no idea that God, Buddha, Allah, Sex, Money, or any of this other crap exists, why? Because a child understands the differences between needs and wants. Do they want things? Of course, but they are also more than happy to have a stick in place of a toy gun, or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in place of sirloin steak. They are not interested in material things, so much as they are in experiencing life to its fullest. When they are allowed to do this without influence, they tend to be very happy and satisfied with life.

 

If you really want to find some degree of satisfaction in your life, then be happy with what you have, don't let yourself get sucked into the rat race, competing with the Joneses crap. Don't feel bad because your neighbor has a 2012 BMW and you have a 1987 VW Rabbit that's missing it's fender. Be happy you have a car that gets you from point a to b and I gaurantee you wont need Buddha's teachings, Jesus's teachings, or any kind of religious nonsense to help you feel satisfied with life.

 

All extraneous teachings are unnecessary, as Lao Tzu said, look within, not without, for that is where peace lies. Be compassionate, frugal, and don't compete with others and peace will find it's own way into your life, without the need of meditation, salvation, or a weekend retreat teaching you how to channel energy into your crotch. It's really that simple, but too many people want life to be complicated, so they don't even bother giving it a try.

 

My personal advice- stop reading so many books, meditate less and help others more, be satisfied with what you have, and a lot of this suffering you're feeling will evaporate, it will be like the sun burning away the fog.

 

Aaron

Edited August 29, 2012 by Aaron

[thetaoiseasy]

If no external, then no internal. If no internal, then no external. both are equal, one and the same.

[skydog]

I think I'm happiest when I give up on being happy and just work on being satisfied. For example asking the question; if the state I'm in now lasted a very very long time, could I find a way to be at peace with it? Usually the answer ends up being yes, I could find a way and somehow that calms me down and brings some peace.

 

wow great epiphany...trying to be happy prevents happiness...whereas non inteferance is.... also thanks for the thread I dont know if it had anything to do with another thread I wrote but if it was appreciate the effort,

 

It is a worthwhile perspective of acknowledging...from time to time..

 

However Im also not overly fond of the "life is suffering" idea

Edited August 30, 2012 by sinansencer

[de_paradise]

I agree with Lucky7. In the Zen parable that everyone knows that goes something like "......on the path trees and not trees and mountains are not mountains, then after enlightenment trees are trees and mountains are mountains again." The Zen path deliberately uses detaching as a cultivation method. But there are always some people who take this as not as a cultivation method but a life philosophy and say think life is meant to be rich and beautiful, and this philosophy is too stoic, must be wrong. Enjoy life to the fullest etc. Of course, that sets them back to chasing desires, or at least not understanding the simple cultivation method of detaching. The mistake is that people want the end state before the path, think how about just skip to the end where the trees are trees and mountains are mountains. Then you have people who somewhat randomly choose things to detach from, and others, make no effort, all according to some subconscious proclivities or readiness. Then you have people like Ramana who supply a method of more simple direct cultivation method, "just asking who am I" and forget about all this detaching.

 

In my years of cultivation I have found that it is important to locate the areas where you are most weak, such as "greed" for money, or "anger" etc, or need for peer esteem, etc. Work on your deepest complexes, and that's what gives the biggest progress, and you will feel it energetically, as well as in your mind.

[Mokona]

IMO, there is a lot of effort in Western spirituality to bridge the gap between one's external desires/attachments and spiritual endeavors. I find this to be just a cunning manipulation of spiritual teachings to justify one's impulses. You can see this when it comes to worshipping one's own body (modern versions of yoga), collecting spiritual jargon/books, irresponsible sexuality, or just irresponsible behavior under ideas (and not experiences) of popular sayings like "we are all one/God/karmic force/ruled by stars or whatever."

 

For a earnest seeker, there has to be a deep understanding that the yearning for wholeness and expansion we have within (this has to be identified foremost) cannot ever be satisfied with external conditions. Since today's society is constructed upon consumerism and entertainment, the purpose of which is to convince your being that ultimate satisfaction is dependent on external situations, there are so many unconscious layers I find within myself affected by a misguided search outwards, whether it be vanquishing your foes, romantic love, triumph of the ego, popularity or the few of many supposed ultimate "goals" peddled into our awareness from birth by Western culture.

 

I am not advocating giving up material wealth or ending sexual desires and becoming a hermit, but the right understanding has to arise that the deep dissatisfaction of the human being cannot be appeased in any way by material or mental means. A significant shift has to happen where even the smallest investment one has in the outer world is turned inwards, without it we are forever bartering between our delusions of satisfaction out there somewhere and hobbyist attitudes towards spirituality. Perhaps at a certain point, the external world simply becomes a decoration.

 

Are you a Buddhist? I've noticed that many Buddhists' tend to lean towards a very bleak world POV. If i'm off the mark, my apologies.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I agree with Lucky7. In the Zen parable that everyone knows that goes something like "......on the path trees and not trees and mountains are not mountains, then after enlightenment trees are trees and mountains are mountains again." The Zen path deliberately uses detaching as a cultivation method. But there are always some people who take this as not as a cultivation method but a life philosophy and say think life is meant to be rich and beautiful, and this philosophy is too stoic, must be wrong. Enjoy life to the fullest etc. Of course, that sets them back to chasing desires, or at least not understanding the simple cultivation method of detaching. The mistake is that people want the end state before the path, think how about just skip to the end where the trees are trees and mountains are mountains. Then you have people who somewhat randomly choose things to detach from, and others, make no effort, all according to some subconscious proclivities or readiness. Then you have people like Ramana who supply a method of more simple direct cultivation method, "just asking who am I" and forget about all this detaching.

 

In my years of cultivation I have found that it is important to locate the areas where you are most weak, such as "greed" for money, or "anger" etc, or need for peer esteem, etc. Work on your deepest complexes, and that's what gives the biggest progress, and you will feel it energetically, as well as in your mind.

 

Yes, this is what I'm really getting at. There's so much spiritual information available today people often mistake expressions of enlightenment for methods of cultivation only to fall to mind's tricks.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Are you a Buddhist? I've noticed that many Buddhists' tend to lean towards a very bleak world POV. If i'm off the mark, my apologies.

I'm not a Buddhist and what I wrote isn't a bleak world view. It's an assessment of the mind, at least my mind. There are deep rooted ideas in the mind, mostly unconscious, that external activity or success of any sorts is the solution to an inner yearning. This is reflected in the smallest choices we make, such as the constant search for entertainment. But the way is not to cut off desire or yearning. That makes you as good as dead.

 

The essentials of desire IME is a very basic expression of life in its efforts to expand and evolve. Needs are just to survive, but as human beings this isn't enough. Satisfaction doesn't come from being merely content. As cultivators, one's wants should be harnessed in a very powerful way but inwards. Being content shouldn't be seen as an admirable trait, but it often is because so many of us suffer due to unfulfilled desires in the external sense.

Edited August 30, 2012 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

If no external, then no internal. If no internal, then no external. both are equal, one and the same.

Are you able to feel the world as you feel your own body? Are you able to freely be with and without the body? IMO if you are not at that level yet, this popular "no inner, no outer" shouldn't be said as if it is truly in one's experience.

[Lucky7Strikes]

I understand what you're saying, but I think you've fallen into the Buddhist trap of viewing the world as an attachment that you must be rid of. This isn't the case, at least not in Taoism or most rational religions, in fact it's the opposite. In Taoism we are not taught to be rid of the world, but to diminish our desires and to understand the difference between needs and wants. If you are finding that you are not satisfied with what the world has to offer, I might suggest you need to reevaluate exactly what you need and want you want, and whether you might be confusing the two.

 

If something is making you unhappy, more often than not it's caused by desiring something you don't need. If we can learn to diminish our desires, then we can begin to diminish a lot of the pain and suffering in our lives. If we can cease to place value on things, then we will never be unhappy if we lose something. This isn't the same as ridding ourselves of material attachments, simply because we can't do this. So long as we live we'll need food, water, and air, all material attachments (clothes aren't a bad idea either). The problem is that, more often than not, we are tricked into believing that having a full belly and a safe place to sleep isn't enough, that we're missing something. We are told that the cure is pursuing God, Buddha,Tao, Allah,Money, Sex, and the list goes on, and we believe that somehow this is going to remove our dissatisfaction, when in fact it's the root cause of it.

 

Lao Tzu said "be done with knowledge" and that a good ruler "keeps his people ignorant" because he understood that the root cause of dissatisfaction is caused by our insatiable need for a solution to something that can't be solved. A child is happy, in fact very happy, even if they have no idea that God, Buddha, Allah, Sex, Money, or any of this other crap exists, why? Because a child understands the differences between needs and wants. Do they want things? Of course, but they are also more than happy to have a stick in place of a toy gun, or a peanut butter and jelly sandwich in place of sirloin steak. They are not interested in material things, so much as they are in experiencing life to its fullest. When they are allowed to do this without influence, they tend to be very happy and satisfied with life.

When all your external needs have been fulfilled are you happy? Are you truly joyous in the satisfaction of your bodily needs? Maybe you are at a moment of peace. But what comes after? Boredom maybe. Restlessness.

 

I would speak from first hand experience that it is not enough. This isn't because someone told me about God, but it is at the very core and the very wonder of being human. Humans want much more than mere survival, there is this deep yearning to evolve, to expand, to experience, to discover. Gods, heavens, and all the tales of something beyond have been invented from this inner yearning. All perversions of greed and lust also are rooted in it. To dismiss them as a mere "wants" to be curtailed and suffering is to deny a very essential energy within you that seeks for something greater than bodily existence. I would say one should want, and want very intensely in the purest sense of desire without it being attached to material delusions. To trace that wanting back inwards and see that your awareness has this necessity to evolve.

[dwai]

IMO, there is a lot of effort in Western spirituality to bridge the gap between one's external desires/attachments and spiritual endeavors. I find this to be just a cunning manipulation of spiritual teachings to justify one's impulses. You can see this when it comes to worshipping one's own body (modern versions of yoga), collecting spiritual jargon/books, irresponsible sexuality, or just irresponsible behavior under ideas (and not experiences) of popular sayings like "we are all one/God/karmic force/ruled by stars or whatever."

For a earnest seeker, there has to be a deep understanding that the yearning for wholeness and expansion we have within (this has to be identified foremost) cannot ever be satisfied with external conditions. Since today's society is constructed upon consumerism and entertainment, the purpose of which is to convince your being that ultimate satisfaction is dependent on external situations, there are so many unconscious layers I find within myself affected by a misguided search outwards, whether it be vanquishing your foes, romantic love, triumph of the ego, popularity or the few of many supposed ultimate "goals" peddled into our awareness from birth by Western culture.

I am not advocating giving up material wealth or ending sexual desires and becoming a hermit, but the right understanding has to arise that the deep dissatisfaction of the human being cannot be appeased in any way by material or mental means. A significant shift has to happen where even the smallest investment one has in the outer world is turned inwards, without it we are forever bartering between our delusions of satisfaction out there somewhere and hobbyist attitudes towards spirituality. Perhaps at a certain point, the external world simply becomes a decoration.

 

Nice lucky,

 

The yoga sutras contain a practical roadmap to use. Not too much, not too little...effortless...simple. Its not just western thought, it is the human condition in and of itself that misguides....(or perhaps western thought has become such a defacto that we mostly dont know any other way)....

 

My teacher says we ascribe a heavy price on knowledge and the mind and that takes its toll by reducing wisdom innate in us all...the wisdom to knw when to use the outer trappings and when to let go.

 

I look far and wide for that which i dont know

But i find oneday that i lost my self

Of all the books of knowledge in my mind's endless aisle

The one about my self is not on even one shelf

When i let go off these books can i turn back to me

And then will i learn that i was already free

 

[et-thoughts]

Spirit, mind, body and a bit more all better be directed to gracefully act with-in-through each other!

Neither the mind, the body, the spirit, the feeling, the thought, the word, the act be culpable for it is the being who chooses what to think, do, experience, feel, consider, say, do and a bit more... What each cultivate reflects what they value... it is possible for the mind to help in spiritual and bodily matters, as it is possible for the body to help in spiritual and mental matters and for the spirit to move the mind and the body... it is not where you are that determines what you be doing there it is what you do there that determines it. It is not that you think that determines thinking being good or bad it is what you think that determines it... (and sometimes is not even what you think that determines it being a good or bad for it is what you do with the thoughts that determines it ) ...