Beginner's [REAL] Magick: Instruction Q&A

[JustARandomPanda]

I suggested that DNB make similar available in his teaching thread because I thought it was missing.

 

Yes!

 

That's one reason why I posted anyone who wishes to practice the Hermetic disciplines needs to start tracking their ACTUAL virtues, vices and good deeds and listed a way they can do so (just read Ben Franklin's autobiography or Liao Fan for details on how to do it). Plus they need to do some sort of concentration meditation *and* some kind of loving-kindness meditation.

 

Without these as a foundation you don't have any hope of being a Mage, Sage, Buddha or all-around Awakened John/Jane Doe.

[Mokona]

But my question was about how to do something with magic! He can't have left, yet.

[JustARandomPanda]

BTW - I've been debating on posting a series of articles on the three Hermetic disciplines. However, I think if I did go through with it I'd put them in the Contributed Articles section of TTB, not this thread. They won't detail actual practices but I did intend to show that deep wisdom can be found in many cultures, not just China or India.

 

In particular not many people understand why astrology would be considered among the 3 arts. Internal Alchemy and Theurgy are more of a 'no-brainer' but Astrology much less so. Until you get introduced to the foundation for it. Then it's a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

[Aetherous]

If you don't have major prajna and compassion realizations then doing Enochian magick is likely to give the less "creepy" results than the practices from BKF's bagua book.

 

Hmm, based on what I've read about Enochian magick...don't think so!

[JustARandomPanda]

Hmm, based on what I've read about Enochian magick...don't think so!

 

Bud..if you think that then I got a book you seriously need to read in-depth.

[Aetherous]

Not sure I'm following...you were saying Enochian Magick is less risky than Bagua practices, right? Maybe this is an issue where we will simply have to agree to disagree.

[Birch]

BTW - I've been debating on posting a series of articles on the three Hermetic disciplines. However, I think if I did go through with it I'd put them in the Contributed Articles section of TTB, not this thread. They won't detail actual practices but I did intend to show that deep wisdom can be found in many cultures, not just China or India.

 

In particular not many people understand why astrology would be considered among the 3 arts. Internal Alchemy and Theurgy are more of a 'no-brainer' but Astrology much less so. Until you get introduced to the foundation for it. Then it's a whole 'nuther ball of wax.

 

I reckon you should go for it. There has been limited Bazi and some Feng Shui discussion on here but as far as I've seen since I've been reading/participating in TTB's it's been mostly meditative and yogic (and some martial) techniques and 'stuff' that has been discussed.

 

I've been wondering why that is (well, like this morning and yesterday:-)) and more or less came up with the idea that it's because TTB's is heavily 'mind/body' practice-based. AND I reckon the 'mind/body' practices are (presently) also considered to trump lots of other 'stuff'. The 'stuff' being trumped is exactly the 'environmental' stuff like FS and astrology.

 

Why that might be is a guess. I have my own guess, that there's a heavy 'Neo-buddhist' undertone to the forum. Not because that's all there is, but because it's likely all that can be successfully exported/imported in cultural terms is mind/body (and even then, look at the time spent debating concepts and definitions). The other stuff (Feng Shui and Bazi) requiring pretty intense calculations and conceptual understanding seems to me to be even more fraught with such issues. Which is sort of why I'm in favor of it being done for 'Western' 'stuff'.

 

See also my post about 'close to the bone' in the qi to fight entities thread.

[JustARandomPanda]

Not sure I'm following...you were saying Enochian Magick is less risky than Bagua practices, right? Maybe this is an issue where we will simply have to agree to disagree.

 

Ah! Now I see. No. I was unclear. I think you and I are likely more in agreement than may at first seem.

 

Ok. Let's see if this helps.

 

Enochian Magick in my opinion is an "expedient means". So is Bagua. Now...there is indeed one advantage Bagua typically has that Enochian does not (and a significant one at that). You are far more likely to have an "experienced hand" aiding and giving guidance when doing Bagua. So if you do happen to have anything terrorizing or scary unleashed due to successful deep Bagua practice you have someone (hopefully) you can turn to for aid. Enochian that's far less so - unless you happen to meet up with someone like DNB who's done the hard part, "been there, done that...don't do THAT(!) yet" parts of Enochian him/herself.

 

I guess my point is that if or when something occurs that terrorizes you (whether from inside or outside) - the ONE thing common to both - whether Enochian or Bagua or any other kind of successful practice is that you can not escape your own terrified mind when or if those buttons get "pressed" as BFK stated. Example: Remember the debate that raged years ago at TTB about whether the Kunlun Lineage was infested with malevolent nagas? The Taoist Sage would not be terrorized even in a room full of galactically-malevolent entities. Not though all the scariest/meanest/nastiest-tempered "nagas" in the "external" world were trying to assault him or her. It simply isn't possible. Such a Sage has seen through his/her own mind. Terror has no hold on such a person anymore. They are the Stillness itself by that point.

 

You can't run from your own terrorized mind. And ultimately - this is what both situations (inner conditions or external ones) devolve to. If they did not you'd be like the Taoist Sage. As the Shurangama Mantra says: Your Vajra-like Resolve would still Remain Unmoved. This is why that part of the Shurangama Sutra has so much value...even for non-Buddhists. Because it is talking about a myriad number of deviant states. And let me tell you...some of them are quite terrifying. Even if you are not a Buddhist I hope people can see that the message it conveys has value. One does not need to be a Buddhist to gain benefit from learning about all the oh-so-subtle traps and deviant states that await if one practices successfully.

[JustARandomPanda]

Forgot to add:

 

the reason Enochian would be less likely to be creepy is that it's already such a high level kind of Qigong that not many people would be good at it. Their ineptitude would kind of "protect" them in a way. Meaning...it'd only deliver pretty weak, or lamo results - if it did so at all.

 

Bagua...especially if done with a teacher's guidance...there's much higher chance of getting it "right" early on. Which could lead to unleashing "creepy" stuff even prior to attaining genuine Meditational realizations.

 

Does that make sense?

[Aetherous]

Wow...I guess I just don't view Enochian magick as being similar to Bagua at all, Serene!

 

Enochian was essentially channeled by a disembodied spirit, or spirits. It was further distorted by the overly religious upbringing of Crowley. Its purpose, from what I've read, is to unleash (external) demons and chaos on the world and humanity, and bring about the apocalypse. LOL! "Expedient means" to what? Not enlightenment.

 

Bagua has nothing to do with these types of ideas...and is completely safe is comparison; not simply because you have a teacher. Ghost qi, or inner demons, is something entirely different from what's willfully contacted in Enochian magick. At least that's my opinion. Sorry for being argumentative. It's nothing personal. I just want to suggest, maybe people should look into what Enochian magick really is, from multiple sources, before believing anything that's being said on this forum about it.

[JustARandomPanda]

Wow...I guess I just don't view Enochian magick as being similar to Bagua at all, Serene!

 

Enochian was essentially channeled by a disembodied spirit, or spirits. It was further distorted by the overly religious upbringing of Crowley. Its purpose, from what I've read, is to unleash (external) demons and chaos on the world and humanity, and bring about the apocalypse. LOL! "Expedient means" to what? Not enlightenment.

 

If you disagree you disagree. It just is what it is.

 

Crowley I'm not a big fan of. I've never given him much weight. Personally I've been more into Gurdjieff myself (and Gurdjieff didn't hold a high opinion of Crowley from my understanding). I admit I've read few books on Enochian but I never got the impression from the few I read it was to call up demons!

 

Humanity doesn't need to call up chaos. It's built into the system anyway. We just should be aware of it as much as the "good stuff". It's part of seeing through one's own mind. Why else do Hindus worship and have practices built around Shiva, the Destroyer? Shiva may not be "Enochian" but the principle is similar imo. Are Hindus invoking a Chaos Demon in worshiping Shiva? I suppose to most Taoists (*shrug*) they indeed are. And let's not get started on all the Buddhist's Fierce Dieties.

 

Bagua has nothing to do with these types of ideas...and is completely safe is comparison; not simply because you have a teacher. Ghost qi, or inner demons, is something entirely different from what's willfully contacted in Enochian magick. At least that's my opinion. Sorry for being argumentative. It's nothing personal. I just want to suggest, maybe people should look into what Enochian magick really is, from multiple sources, before believing anything that's being said on this forum about it.

 

Well again...I'd encourage you to read 50 skanda-demon states. I take it you have not run across any of the demon states in your own meditation practice yet? (FYI to interested TTBs: there's a reason they're called *demon states*).

 

 

I see why DNB left...and I think it was the right idea. It's why I stopped posting Magick practices in this thread as well and I'm having second thoughts about posting the articles. TTB people are not interested in putting Western Hermetic alchemy into actual practice. If you have a good Taoist practice it isn't really necessary anyway imo. They're all fingers pointing to the same moon for the simple reason (contrary to what some people state) there is no other "place" to end up (no such thing as 2 Ultimate, non-dual Truths, Taos, Ein Sofs, Bramans, etc). But just as some people respond well to Taoism but not to Hinduism, Buddhism or Shamanism so some prefer Western Hermetics to Taoism.

 

It's all good in the woods.

 

Cheers to you Turtle.

[Birch]

Sort of a "depends where you start and then mean to continue' kind of a thing?

For example, if you begin with the 'all is one' or the 'you're already enlightened' or the 'you've fallen' or the 'you're born of sin' idea(s) (apologies for not using other examples of origins - there are lots), where exactly does that leave you off if you are actually born into and live for significant periods of time (allowing that time is a succession of personal experience (sic) in any of the latter? (need word for idea-driven environment)

 

And then depending on where you've started off, how do additional systems (of belief etc) play into all that? Damned if I know.

In passing, I did listen to that podcast with the British/American exorcist that was posted on DNB's thread. It was really interesting. AND I suspect the discussed entities might be the closest people have to 'consistent phenomena'. Hence the attraction to them and the power attributed?

I'm speculating and wondering/wandering, but am very interested.

[Aetherous]

I admit I've read few books on Enochian but I never got the impression from the few I read it was to call up demons!

 

Google-fu!

[JustARandomPanda]

Google-fu!

 

LOL! Indeed I shall my friend. I have a weird hunch...Enochian may be Western Hermetic's "left-hand path".

[Birch]

Forgot to add:

 

the reason Enochian would be less likely to be creepy is that it's already such a high level kind of Qigong that not many people would be good at it. Their ineptitude would kind of "protect" them in a way. Meaning...it'd only deliver pretty weak, or lamo results - if it did so at all.

 

Bagua...especially if done with a teacher's guidance...there's much higher chance of getting it "right" early on. Which could lead to unleashing "creepy" stuff even prior to attaining genuine Meditational realizations.

 

Does that make sense?

 

I don't know more about Enochian than 'I feel/think it's creepy' I'm afraid. Yet I have been willing as a practitioner to do 'Eastern' stuff that resulted in 'super-weird-shit' (as a personal experience) whereas the 'Western magic' just freaks me out to start with (and in comparison to the abject terror I've experienced with 'Eastern practices' that's an interesting perspective, I figure). Apech would be a guy to discuss with as much 'Western' practice seems to have its origin in Egypt/Greco-Roman culture. As would Santi, although I reckon he's got a 'cultural' leg up with some stuff.

Anyway every time I read the term 'straw man' I get this horrible 'pagan' image of one burning:-)

[JustARandomPanda]

I don't know more about Enochian than 'I feel/think it's creepy' I'm afraid. Yet I have been willing as a practitioner to do 'Eastern' stuff that resulted in 'super-weird-shit' (as a personal experience) whereas the 'Western magic' just freaks me out to start with (and in comparison to the abject terror I've experienced with 'Eastern practices' that's an interesting perspective, I figure).

 

I agree. But have you noticed the distinct lack of Taoist Theurgist Magic practicers on this forum? We only got the Internal Alchemy dudes/dudettes here. This is not the whole of Taoist practices we're seeing. I wonder if such Taoist magick practicers started posting details about their stuff on this forum if Westerners would get the same kind of heebie-jeebies they do of Ceremonial Magick and Enochian? Even Eva Wong in her book on Taoism stated she was deliberately giving incorrect information when she discussed Taoist Theurgic/Invocational Magick because it was way too powerful to be put out amongst people with little or no access to a Taoist temple lineage.

 

Apech would be a guy to discuss with as much 'Western' practice seems to have its origin in Egypt/Greco-Roman culture. As would Santi, although I reckon he's got a 'cultural' leg up with some stuff.

 

Funny you should mention that because I've been really into reading the Stoics lately. You would not believe how many similarities there are between Taoism and Stoicism! I'm pretty much stumped as to why Western profs have glossed over so many references in Plato and his successors of actual meditational practices. Why pick and choose what's 'relevant' that the ancient philosophers wrote? The more I look into it the more convinced I am that modern Philosophy profs are just as clueless about ancient philosophy's real purposes as most tv preachers and imams are of their holy documents today.

 

I just sit and read and wonder, "wth happened? Do those Profs eyes glaze over when they hit this passage?"

[Birch]

have you noticed the distinct lack of Taoist Theurgist Magic practicers on this forum?

 

Hum, I reckon there's a couple or a few here but they don't post on that stuff. Why? I could speculate (see my previous post and yours below:-))

 

We only got the Internal Alchemy dudes/dudettes here. This is not the whole of Taoist practices we're seeing.

 

Agreed. Not to say it's not great.

 

I wonder if such Taoist magick practicers started posting details about their stuff on this forum if Westerners would get the same kind of heebie-jeebies they do of Ceremonial Magick and Enochian?

 

Need to ask the Chinese-speaking folks in their TTB forum. I'm kind of suggesting the 'Taoist magic' folks DO post details about stuff that 'ought' to give everyone the heebies (my most recent memory was that dude with the Fu that Yoda eventually started learning from, but he was laughed offstage) except the 'Westerners' can get around them via language, conceptual issues etc.

 

Even Eva Wong in her book on Taoism stated she was deliberately giving incorrect information when she discussed Taoist Theurgic/Invocational Magick because it was way too powerful to be put out amongst people with little or no access to a Taoist temple lineage.

 

Not sure what to say about that. I'm sure she was doing what she thought was correct but I would appreciate knowing the reasons, specifically.

 

If we take the 'Vatican' as example with all their stored-up documents and 'stuff', I can figure it might be 'better' not to put certain stuff 'out there' at various points of history. But the point is 'better for whom' and 'when'?

 

Many states have made similar arguments about their scientific and/or military progress.

[everseeking]

But the point is 'better for whom and 'when'?

 

Exactly. Better for the ones who decide to withhold. Im untrained in Western practices, but from the little I've read about the LHP side, one big component of, for example the 'Satanism' side's discontent with Christian religion in general is that it enslaves people with guilt and does not empower the individual. Most practices discussed TTB are empowering. As we ( some of us) seem to be "seeking the truth", should we not be prepared to handle it, regardless of the pain or pleasure it may bring us? Equality of knowledge is freedom, and being held in a state of ignorance is tyranny, IMO.

[宁]

for a glimpse into taoist theurgical practice i suggest m. saso's 'taoist master chang'.

 

love your posts serene. way more clearer even than dnb's.

[JustARandomPanda]

for a glimpse into taoist theurgical practice i suggest m. saso's 'taoist master chang'.

 

love your posts serene. way more clearer even than dnb's.

 

Why thank you..Dolphin. (um..don't know how to spell or pronounce your name so I just call you Dolphin. )

 

I'm still on the fence about posting anything on the theory of the three Hermetic Arts. For some reason I keep imagining after posting it the only response would be crickets chirping...

 

 

I did want to mention that after all of this storm over the evilness of Enochian I've decided to get John Dee's actual diaries. I don't consider Enochian as interpreted through Crowley and Crowley's enthusiastic fans to be a good way to understand what Dee and Kelly themselves were doing. I do admit I need a lot of educating on the matter more.

[rex]

Enochian is heavy duty. Check this interview out (third from last question):

http://hermetic.com/...ws/dolores.html

 

Dolores Ashcroft-Nowicki's 'Your Unseen Power: Real Training in Western Magic' is worth a look:

http://www.amazon.co...ores-Ashcroft-Nowicki/dp/1591794781

[宁]

it's Ning, the name. dolphy is not bad though. dolphy? adolph? haha.

 

i'm afraid i for one learned more about magick from your posts, on this thread. maybe it's cuz you already have a foot in the taoistic world.

 

that aside, qigong and neigong are secular lay practices, and attract people that feel the need of touching an Universe that's not anthropomorphized, maybe the idea of adding a face and human~like features to Qi is the one that scares the rest of us off magickalities.

 

 

[Aetherous]

I actually got Enochian Vision Magick and read the whole thing yesterday, after discussing this with you. Apparently it's one of the more positive accounts, actually assuming that the beings are angels...amazon reviewers tend to experience good things with it. There were questionable aspects though...for instance, Kelly being of questionable nature (maybe he made things up), and numerous occasions of getting wrong information from what they considered to be evil spirits, where the "angels" had to correct them. If you're interested in Enochian, I'd say it's a good book to check out...overall it was very positive.

[JustARandomPanda]

Thanks Rex. I'll check out the links.

 

 

it's Ning, the name. dolphy is not bad though. dolphy? adolph? haha.

 

i'm afraid i for one learned more about magick from your posts, on this thread. maybe it's cuz you already have a foot in the taoistic world.

 

that aside, qigong and neigong are secular lay practices, and attract people that feel the need of touching an Universe that's not anthropomorphized, maybe the idea of adding a face and human~like features to Qi is the one that scares the rest of us off magickalities.

 

Edit: I agree with you there on the non-anthropomorphization bit. That's one reason why I like both Taoism and Buddhism.

 

Well the best book I can recommend for those who are curious about seeing if there are indeed legitimate correspondances between Western practices and Eastern ones (especially Taoist ones) should get the following book post-haste:

 

The Tao and the Tree of Life by Eric S. Yudelove.

 

Unfortunately it's out of print and imo that really sucks because this book is the best book hands down I've ever seen showing the correspondence between actual Qabalistic/Western Hermetic inner alchemy practices and Taoist Inner Alchemy practices. It makes a good primer in it's own right as well of 4 different kinds of inner alchemy / spiritual training traditions.

 

Those being specifically:

1. Taoist (especially as was transmitted by Mantak Chia and to a lesser extent Charles Luk's Taoist Yoga and Wilhelm's Secret of the Golden Flower)

 

2. Qabalah - Both Western and Jewish (which are not the same according to Yudelove - and since he's a Jew I assume he likely knows a thing or two about what does or does not count as "jewish' mystic teachings within rabbinic circles, etc.)

 

3. Hermeticism - especially as taught by Franz Bardon. But also of course by the Hermetica itself.

 

4. Shamanism! This last was a big surprise but it turns out Yudelove is into various spiritual practices from assorted traditional societies. In fact..the book opens by focusing and grounding Taoist, Qabalistic and Hermetic practices within an overarching Shamanic framework. He discusses the Lower, Middle and Upper Worlds and levels of wisdom to be learned in assorted shamanic practices and again how these are different fingers pointing to the same ultimate moon.

 

The book is full of actual practices and doesn't stint on showing where they correspond *and* where they differ. I did appreciate that.

 

I actually got Enochian Vision Magick and read the whole thing yesterday, after discussing this with you. Apparently it's one of the more positive accounts, actually assuming that the beings are angels...amazon reviewers tend to experience good things with it. There were questionable aspects though...for instance, Kelly being of questionable nature (maybe he made things up), and numerous occasions of getting wrong information from what they considered to be evil spirits, where the "angels" had to correct them. If you're interested in Enochian, I'd say it's a good book to check out...overall it was very positive.

 

Yes! Enochian Vision Magick by Lon Milo DuQuette is where I got most of my impressions from Enochian.

 

I also think reading Heaven and Hell by the 18th century Christian mystic Emanuel Swedenborg would hugely deepen the understanding of Enochian practices. In fact, D.T. Suzuki - the guy basically responsible for bring Buddhism to the West in the 1920s was so impressed by Swedenborg he wrote a book about him! D.T. Suzuki even stated that Westerners should be studying Swedenborg's writings intensely because he was the "Buddha of the North"!

 

Just to throw in something else to further whet your curiosity. The Heavens and Hells and the assigning to groups that take place there that Swedenborg describes are pretty much identical to the descriptions given by people in this book (as reviewed in this TTB thread).

 

Then...when you think that D.T. Suzuki studied Swedenborg's books and called him the Buddha of the North (Suzuki was a Zen Buddhist)...it doesn't take much to see the links beginning to line up in all these diverse traditions around the globe.

Edited September 10, 2012 by SereneBlue

[Seth Ananda]

Hey Serene Blue, I would love Love LOVE to read your articles on Astrology, Alchemy and Theurgy, and on any Hermetic subject.

I Love your writing style, Its beautiful and rational, seductive and finely crafted, poetic and Informative... and a pleasure to read!

 

I personally think a Hermetic subforum would be great. I have many things I would like to post there, as Hermeticism is my long time Love affair. I don't usually bother in the general forum, as the occult naysayers usually like to shit on those discussions as soon as they start, But I believe that there is a great deal in common with Hermetic and Taoist thought, that can be mutually enriching...

 

Seth.