Aaron Posted August 30, 2012 What hype? Umm... If I have to explain it then there's really no point. Aaron Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 30, 2012 Umm... If I have to explain it then there's really no point. Aaron lol ok, you ask for studies, I give you studies, your response is they are just hype, a response I can hardly fathom from someone who even bothered to examine what was presented. I really need to quit wasting my time on this forum. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aaron Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) lol ok, you ask for studies, I give you studies, your response is they are just hype, a response I can hardly fathom from someone who even bothered to examine what was presented. I really need to quit wasting my time on this forum. what you've done is provided me with sources that are still debatable. Tummo is nothing more than bio-feedback meditation. we already knew that you could alter the temperature of the body as well as increase healing through use of the mind. This is the main reason why we have studied the placebo affect. my hypothesis is that the practice of qigong is a form of self hypnosis. in other words you are given a paradigm in which to believe that something will occur, and because the practitioner believes that it will happen, it happens. Just as someone who takes a sugar pill believes it will heal them and they are healed. Aaron Edited August 30, 2012 by Aaron 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 30, 2012 Who says qi can't be detected by science? Are you a scientist? Have you studied science in a legitimate and comprehensive way? Have you actually looked into the studies that have been done regarding 'qi'? Do you realize that the idea of a subtle energy that pervades all things, that you can play with, use to heal, which is associated with the breath and with life...has been a completely worldwide phenomenon for all of our recorded history? Not trying to convince you of anything, except that you might not really know what you're talking about! qi has been detected by science, and by instrumentation. theres a great overview of the technology and scientists at the forefront of the field in the third section of Kundalini Tantra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted August 30, 2012 what you've done is provided me with sources that are still debatable. Tummo is nothing more than bio-feedback meditation. we already knew that you could alter the temperature of the body as well as increase healing through use of the mind. This is the main reason why we have studied the placebo affect. my hypothesis is that the practice of qigong is a form of self hypnosis. in other words you are given a paradigm in which to believe that something will occur, and because the practitioner believes that it will happen, it happens. Just as someone who takes a sugar pill believes it will heal them and they are healed. Aaron why don't you use jump into a tub of frozen water for an hour then and use the power of belief to keep yourself warm. make a vid! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Disabled Not Broken Posted August 30, 2012 Actually your bunny friend is right on the mark. There's a reason people can sense chi, yet it can't be detected by science. To you it exists, but to most people chi and qi is imaginary. Does it exist? For you it does and perhaps that's enough. After all, must I believe what other people believe? Aaron What you say, is half truth-- but I definitely do understand what you are saying... However, if anyone doubted Chi is real- and asked me [personally] for a demonstration- I could knock them down with it [like THE Max video, but minus the theatrics ] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted August 30, 2012 If you're frustrated with those "new agers" you might want to avoid the Buddhists, Vedantists, and non-dual folks too! Oh, and be careful of the Daoists as well. If you stick with the Daoist practices for a while, the whole question of what is happening, who is happening, and where the distinction occurs between the two can become a bit fuzzy. At least it has for me. I think the best thing I've learned from it all is to keep an open mind and try to cultivate awareness. Good fortune on your path. Well i am kinda frustrated from the new agers now for them whatever you do, its all belief the other day i was talking to a so called spiritual, new age bunny he said that there are no chakras, no tan tien, no kundalini its all your belief he said that if you dont believe in chakras than they dont exist in you and if you believe than they do one of them said that there is nothing special in mantras too they say you can get equal and even better results by chanting anything you wish, instead of sacred mantras another new ager was talking about how sexual transumutation (using sexual energies for spiritual progress ) is nothing but a thought system i mean he thinks that if you believe that it is true than its true for you......its not a universal truth if you tell them to practice microcosmic orbit than they will tell you its all belief, there is actually no energy channel like that it exists if you believe.......i mean they say that they can move the energy anywhere in the body and produce same effect one of the greatest bunny was really after me......... he was figthing with me and kind like forcing me to believe that i am already a God and i am already enlightened lol i dont need to do anything, because i am already god now i am thinking to challange a bunny to fly.....they keep saying that you can fly if you believe but i have never seen any bunny flying these days so if you wanna become a new ager just think that whatever practice you are doing right now, its working because of your belief in it whether its qi gong, magic, or anything did i mention that they can even say that qi also exists because you believe 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thunder_Gooch Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) “Men think epilepsy divine, merely because they do not understand it... We will one day understand what causes it, and then cease to call it divine. And so it is with everything in the universe.” ― Hippocrates So basically what you are wanting is science to prove that supernatural abilities and powers exist when they don't, instead we discover rational and logical explanations and new natural phenomenon we were previously unaware of. My argument is there is no supernatural anything anywhere. This universe is purely natural, and everything contained by it is purely natural. Chang refers to himself as a metaphysical scientist, and nothing he is able to do is any more supernatural than what an electric eel does. “No buts!” he interrupted. “Anyone with ch’i can learn how to do this. It’s nothing!” He thought that statement over for a second, then added, “But first you must have ch’i.” The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (pp. 157-158). Storing and releasing yang energy in the body to heat it up isn't supernatural either. Generating huge bio-magnetic fields, nope that's not supernatural either. Positive thinking when applied for long periods of time can build up a good momentum, as well as negative thinking over time can make someone sick. Placebo and psychosomatic effects can be observed. Psyching yourself out everyday for the rest of your life that you can fly, isn't going to make it so though. what you've done is provided me with sources that are still debatable. Tummo is nothing more than bio-feedback meditation. we already knew that you could alter the temperature of the body as well as increase healing through use of the mind. This is the main reason why we have studied the placebo affect. my hypothesis is that the practice of qigong is a form of self hypnosis. in other words you are given a paradigm in which to believe that something will occur, and because the practitioner believes that it will happen, it happens. Just as someone who takes a sugar pill believes it will heal them and they are healed. Aaron Edited August 30, 2012 by More_Pie_Guy 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnC Posted August 30, 2012 My argument is there is no supernatural anything anywhere. This universe is purely natural, and everything contained by it is purely natural. I agree with this. Just as there isn't anything that is un-natural in the foods we eat. It is all of the universe, and from the universe. There are just things that are poisonous to humans, and things that are very good for us. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog Posted August 30, 2012 Supernatural only seems supernatural in accordance with the currently accepted models of reality proposed by academics who try to understand the world by thinking about it, but according to quantum physics the more you try to understand the world the further you get from it as you affect the world. Also Aaron fair enough you might be skeptical about it but practice qigong and you will "feel" a force, when i move my hands its like theres a force and my muscles tense, Im pretty sure im not a crazy delusional lunatic. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thelerner Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) this thread is just a belief ... lol I don't know. I close my eyes and don't believe in it, but poof, it's still here. <humor received at this end, the lol was the giveaway. humor transmitted not so goodly > These days my litmus test isn't whats true, but what can help me. (My old Aikido sensei used to say 'What I'm teaching you is a lie, but a necessary one') I see the placebo effect as a very powerful force I can use and not psychological aberration. I can't tell my body what to do, but I use combinations of breath and mental imagery to gain control of it, and over my mind. There is a time to use uncommon sense. In the real world one plus one does not equal two (ask a rabbit). There are leaps of faith that require surrender. Course after a leap or two we should probably grab back some common sense and look around and evaluate where we are. Edited August 31, 2012 by thelerner Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog Posted August 30, 2012 the lerner i was kind of joking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted August 30, 2012 One of the "first ever" scientific discoveries of chi was orgone energy It might have been something else but a lot of people think that was chi being physically manipulated by machines The research has been suppressed a lot in its time and when the scientist behind it died, most of the notes disappeared Right now orgone is being abused by new age people as another magical thing and they sell some weird cubes To me it's another water fuel cell, water powered cars have been invented and reinvented for decades but the people behind them kept mysteriously disappearing or selling their patents to car companies I wonder, if we had machines powered by chi, what would happen to all the electricity Maybe if we could harvest pure chi and turn it into anything we want, we wont need most fuels We won't need most of the things we have right now and a lot of existing companies would suffer Looks like not everyone wants chi to be "discovered" 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 30, 2012 So much for the new age bunnies. 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Aetherous Posted August 30, 2012 You know how can you tell a master from a noob? The master has nothing to prove because he has proven something real and tangible to himself. The noob is constantly trying to convince others of a reality of which he isn't even convinced himself. Strive to be a master right now. Hide your light--if you feel you have any--under your clothes. Other people are not your concern. Other people are not our concern? Then why did you post that, in response to me questioning Aaron? Just wanted to call someone a noob? It's okay, I understand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Diamond Spectrum Posted August 31, 2012 Gravity sucks. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thetaoiseasy Posted August 31, 2012 Before I posted, I actually didn't look at any of the posts after the OP's post, so I didn't even see what you posted....0_0 Other people are not our concern? Then why did you post that, in response to me questioning Aaron? Just wanted to call someone a noob? It's okay, I understand. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eye_of_the_storm Posted August 31, 2012 One of the "first ever" scientific discoveries of chi was orgone energy It might have been something else but a lot of people think that was chi being physically manipulated by machines The research has been suppressed a lot in its time and when the scientist behind it died, most of the notes disappeared Right now orgone is being abused by new age people as another magical thing and they sell some weird cubes To me it's another water fuel cell, water powered cars have been invented and reinvented for decades but the people behind them kept mysteriously disappearing or selling their patents to car companies I wonder, if we had machines powered by chi, what would happen to all the electricity Maybe if we could harvest pure chi and turn it into anything we want, we wont need most fuels We won't need most of the things we have right now and a lot of existing companies would suffer Looks like not everyone wants chi to be "discovered" Nikola Tesla called it Radiant Energy / Cosmic Energy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nine tailed fox Posted August 31, 2012 Actually your bunny friend is right on the mark. There's a reason people can sense chi, yet it can't be detected by science. To you it exists, but to most people chi and qi is imaginary. Does it exist? For you it does and perhaps that's enough. After all, must I believe what other people believe? Aaron if you are saying that chi exists because we believe than why not believe in something which is more simple than chi like if i believe there is a bunny energy (its not chi) which is all pervading, to increase it i just have to dance and perform silly movements.........etc, its bunny gong this is one of the problem of this new agey belief thing if its all belief than why not believe something simple.......?, they cant answer this question like why believe that there are 7 chakras, why not believe that there is only 1 chakra.......... i guess because some things are beyond belief, they are universal truth like the chakras and chi no matter how many times you do the affirmations, no matter how many times you place an intent that i have only one chakra its not gonna happen you have 7 chakras and they are not based on your belief...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 31, 2012 if you are saying that chi exists because we believe than why not believe in something which is more simple than chi like if i believe there is a bunny energy (its not chi) which is all pervading, to increase it i just have to dance and perform silly movements.........etc, its bunny gong this is one of the problem of this new agey belief thing if its all belief than why not believe something simple.......?, they cant answer this question like why believe that there are 7 chakras, why not believe that there is only 1 chakra.......... i guess because some things are beyond belief, they are universal truth like the chakras and chi no matter how many times you do the affirmations, no matter how many times you place an intent that i have only one chakra its not gonna happen you have 7 chakras and they are not based on your belief...... When we consider shared realities and shared beliefs... and the impact of someone's actions on those around... the whole thing becomes a bit more complicated... who's belief will stand and exist? Am I allowed to force what I want upon others? are they allowed to force what they want upon me? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted August 31, 2012 Am I allowed to force what I want upon others? are they allowed to force what they want upon me? My answer to both of those questions is an absolute "No!". However, I see no problem with sharing our beliefs with others and discussing them for the purpose of understanding. In the very long term, does it really matter if anyone is right? And what is 'right'? According to whom? Beliefs and understandings are what they are - nothing more. Do these beliefs and understandings help us get through our life? If yes, then "Great", if not, discard them and find some other ones. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Birch Posted August 31, 2012 When we consider shared realities and shared beliefs... and the impact of someone's actions on those around... the whole thing becomes a bit more complicated... who's belief will stand and exist? Am I allowed to force what I want upon others? are they allowed to force what they want upon me? No, in theory. But unfortunately that's exactly what happens in practice. I take the example of sending a child to a church to be indoctrinated. It's one thing to choose to practice a 'path' or study 'spirituality' or philosophy, quite another to have it force-fed. I suppose it also depends a lot of where you live. In more homogeneous cultural areas it's going to be a hell of a lot more difficult to express actions or ideas that run counter to the prevailing ones. In some cases, even opening certain subjects up for discussion and questioning could be seen as a non-desireable move and have consequences that may not benefit the person. ---2cts opinion alert--- Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 31, 2012 Am I allowed to force what I want upon others? are they allowed to force what they want upon me? My answer to both of those questions is an absolute "No!". However, I see no problem with sharing our beliefs with others and discussing them for the purpose of understanding. In the very long term, does it really matter if anyone is right? And what is 'right'? According to whom? Beliefs and understandings are what they are - nothing more. Do these beliefs and understandings help us get through our life? If yes, then "Great", if not, discard them and find some other ones. 'Marblehead' et all... NOTE how you force what you want upon others by your absolute "No!"... what if I said absolute "YES!" or how about the answer I like better... Am I allowed to force what I want upon others, would depend on what I holds and what be... one may or may not be allowed to force it upon others... yes it really matter if someone is right... and whomever be right has the right to demand that those wrong be restrained... what is 'right'? well ... what is 'right' ... and according to what be right ... yes indeed you are right in that 'Beliefs and understandings are what they are'... Now in regard to the criteria of its usefulness to us leading to discarding the useless as we look for some other stuff... well lets say that just because someone finds the truth inconvenient the truth shouldn't be discarded... besides when we consider shared realities and shared beliefs... and the impact of someone's actions on those around... the whole thing becomes a bit more entailing and entertaining ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted August 31, 2012 take the example of sending a child to a church to be indoctrinated. It's one thing to choose to practice a 'path' or study 'spirituality' or philosophy, quite another to have it force-fed. The question isn't to be indoctrinated or not be indoctrinated... the question be what to be indoctrinated with! What you said reminded me of a dinner talk that took place a long long time when I was just a child... my parents guest talked about how an empty cup inevitable becomes filled with something... the cup is always full! --- full of what is the real question... the one in front of me right now has about 1/3 coffee and 2/3 air :-) .... of course if I fill it to the rim with what I want I will have only what I want in it... what is your cup filled with? (and here by 'cup' I mean 'life')... and its more of a rhetorical question... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
