the real "First Noble Truth" per-se

[3bob]

is Enlightenment, not suffering.

[3bob]

Well my post was a loaded one with a lot meant in a few words, but if there are no particular questions, refutations, comments of interest or add-ons of then what is to be said?

Edited August 31, 2012 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

But what if there really are no "Noble Truths" whatever? Do I avoid suffering or seek enlightenment?

 

(Of course, I am sure you understand that I am first going to avoid suffering.)

[ChiDragon]

In Chinese Buddhism, Enlightenment releases all suffering.

[Clarity]

But what if there really are no "Noble Truths" whatever? Do I avoid suffering or seek enlightenment?

 

(Of course, I am sure you understand that I am first going to avoid suffering.)

 

 

And what if there is no suffering to avoid and no enlightenment? Then we can just abandon all conceptual thought.

[3bob]

But what if there really are no "Noble Truths" whatever? Do I avoid suffering or seek enlightenment?

 

(Of course, I am sure you understand that I am first going to avoid suffering.)

 

Along related lines "To be or not to be" is a human invention/mentation...

[Marblehead]

Along related lines "To be or not to be" is a human invention/mentation...

The process of evolution is what decided if we were to be or not to be. Humans are still trying to figure out how to be.

[3bob]

In Chinese Buddhism, Enlightenment releases all suffering.

 

"When have the ducks ever flown away?"

[3bob]

.

Edited August 31, 2012 by 3bob

[3bob]

The process of evolution is what decided if we were to be or not to be. Humans are still trying to figure out how to be.

 

Who is the process of evolution?

[Marblehead]

"When have the ducks ever flown away?"

What ducks?

 

Did I miss something again?

[3bob]

I will say no more.

 

? yet you did...

[3bob]

What ducks?

 

Did I miss something again?

 

The Koan ducks

[Marblehead]

The Koan ducks

Oh, Okay. Now I remember.

[Marblehead]

Who is the process of evolution?

I know not but it states in Line 12 of Chapter 25 of the Tao Te Ching that "Tao follows Tzujan (zi ran)."

 

Can you place a name on the processes of nature?

[rene]

Can you place a name on the processes of nature?

 

I do not know its name-

Call it Tao.

For lack of a better word, I call it great.

Being great, it flows

It flows far away.

Having gone far, it returns.

[Marblehead]

I do not know its name-

Call it Tao.

For lack of a better word, I call it great.

Being great, it flows

It flows far away.

Having gone far, it returns.

Yeah, I suppose that if we need to name it a non-descript name would be the best name to use.

 

(Of course, I like to use the word Tzujan but that's just me.)

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[Mark Foote]

is Enlightenment, not suffering.

 

In A Philological Approach to Buddhism, K. R. Norman points out that the translation should most likely be "this is suffering". In the Pali Canon suttas, the Gautamid frequently sums up suffering as "in short, the five groups of grasping".

 

My point here is that Gautama's four truths regarding suffering did not begin with "life is suffering", as many people have been led to believe. They began with "this is suffering", followed by an explanation of the origin and cessation of suffering, and words about the path leading to the cessation of suffering. "In short, the five groups of grasping" refers to grasping after self with regard to form, feeling, mind, habitual tendency, or consciousness.

 

In a sermon, the Gautamid stated that after his lectures he always returned to that first characteristic of concentration in which he ever abided. He didn't say what that characteristic was, but elsewhere he state that "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of single-pointedness of mind."

 

He states in the Canon that "whatever is 'own body', this is 'own-body'... but this is the deathless, that is to say the deliverance of thought without grasping". Sounds like enlightenment, and as always he insists that the "disturbance associated with the senses" is still present ("whatever is own body").

 

The Gautamid said that all the components of the eight-fold path develop to fruition (or are already well taken care of) when sense organ, sense object, consciousness, impact, and feeling are seen as they really are with respect to each of the six senses.

 

Just being where I am as I am is that experience of sense organ, sense object, consciousness, impact, and feeling as it really is, to me. Where I am as I am shifts, consciousness is not necessarily continuous, and the easiest time to observe this is falling asleep; same thing waking up.

 

No "this is suffering", no "enlightenment"; simultaneous, samsara and enlightenment.

Edited September 6, 2012 by Mark Foote

[3bob]

In A Philological Approach to Buddhism, K. R. Norman points out that the translation should most likely be "this is suffering". In the Pali Canon suttas, the Gautamid frequently sums up suffering as "in short, the five groups of grasping".

 

My point here is that Gautama's four truths regarding suffering did not begin with "life is suffering", as many people have been led to believe. They began with "this is suffering", followed by an explanation of the origin and cessation of suffering, and words about the path leading to the cessation of suffering. "In short, the five groups of grasping" refers to grasping after self with regard to form, feeling, mind, habitual tendency, or consciousness.

 

In a sermon, the Gautamid stated that after his lectures he always returned to that first characteristic of concentration in which he ever abided. He didn't say what that characteristic was, but elsewhere he state that "making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of single-pointedness of mind."

 

He states in the Canon that "whatever is 'own body', this is 'own-body'... but this is the deathless, that is to say the deliverance of thought without grasping". Sounds like enlightenment, and as always he insists that the "disturbance associated with the senses" is still present ("whatever is own body").

 

The Gautamid said that all the components of the eight-fold path develop to fruition (or are already well taken care of) when sense organ, sense object, consciousness, impact, and feeling are seen as they really are with respect to each of the six senses.

 

Just being where I am as I am is that experience of sense organ, sense object, consciousness, impact, and feeling as it really is, to me. Where I am as I am shifts, consciousness is not necessarily continuous, and the easiest time to observe this is falling asleep; same thing waking up.

 

No "this is suffering", no "enlightenment"; simultaneous, samsara and enlightenment.

 

What the Buddha said is what the Buddha said, what the Buddha realized is what the Buddha realized....

and are not enough. (except as pointers)

[Boy]

...

Edited October 11, 2012 by Boy

[3bob]

Very well put, 3bob!

 

Thanks Boy...

 

and Mark I think your point of: "My point here is that Gautama's four truths regarding suffering did not begin with "life is suffering", as many people have been led to believe", was and is very important in meaning!