Class Room For Classic Chinese

[ChiDragon]

Let's discuss anything regarding to the terms or phrases in classic Chinese, here, in this thread. All questions are welcome.

[yiming]

老師，我在這裡。我的名字是易明。我想學習中國古典語言。

[ChiDragon]

老師，我在這裡。我的名字是易明。我想學習中國古典語言。

In case of any misunderstanding or disrespect. Here is the translation.

 

"Teacher, I'm here. My name is 易明(yiming). I am here to learn classical Chinese."

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 14

1. 視之不見，名曰夷。

2. 聽之不聞，名曰希。

3. 摶之不得，名曰微。

 

Translated in terse English...

1. View it couldn't see, let's call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, let's call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, let's call it Formless.

 

Chapter 14 is a very typical case of classic Chinese. The last three characters, 夷 希 微, in the first three lines are very classical. Their classic meaning may not be found in any of the modern Chinese dictionaries. It is because they were already being defined in these lines.

 

From Chapter 1, we were told that Tao is invisible. When Tao was invisible, we grok its quale. We are the qualia of Tao...??? Well, Tao is formless, colorless, and soundless.

 

Lines 1 through 3 are self explanatory.

1. View it couldn't see, let's call it 夷(yi2).

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, let's call it 希(xi1).

3. Touch it couldn't feel, let's call it 微(wei2).

 

Let's start with line 3, it says something that one cannot feel which implies it's 'formless'. Thus 微(wei2) is formless.

Line 2, it says something that one cannot be heard which implies it's 'soundless'. Thus 希(xi1) is soundless.

Line 1, it says something that one cannot feel by touch which implies it's 'colorless'. Thus 夷(yi2) is colorless.

 

Of course, we could say line 1 as follows:

Line 1, it says something that one cannot see which implies it's 'invisible' too. Thus 夷(yi2) is invisible. However, Chapter 1 had already stolen the word 'invisible' by calling Tao as 無(Wu, invisible)。 So, we ended up 夷(yi2) as 'colorless'.

 

This is the fun part in reading and studying the TTC. It gives us an opportunity to test our wisdom by making us to think a little by our own intuition with common sense. Finally, the ultimate test was the sense of logic.

[yiming]

 

This is the fun part in reading and studying the TTC. It gives us an opportunity to test our wisdom by making us to think a little by our own intuition with common sense. Finally, the ultimate test was the sense of logic.

 

I thought that the basic purpose for studying the Chinese Classics including the Tao Te Ching is to learn how to live the

right way. (學做人)

[ChiDragon]

I thought that the basic purpose for studying the Chinese Classics including the Tao Te Ching is to learn how to live the

right way. (學做人)

 

Yes, yiming, but you must learn to understand the principles of the Tao Te Ching, in order, to know how to live the right way...!!!

If you don't understand these principles, then how are you going to live the right way...???

[dawei]

You learn to live the right way from nature... book reading puts in you suspended animation of virtual living. Put the book down and your back to real-life and nature. Lao Zi said "the ancients"... what books did they learn from? In a word, NONE.

 

BTW: The oldest texts have the first three lines differently:

 

MWD A:

視之而弗見名之曰微

聽之而弗聞名之曰希

昏之而弗得名之曰夷

 

MWD B:

 

視之而弗見□之曰微

聽之而弗聞命之曰希

德昏之而弗得命之曰夷

 

Fu Xi, Heshang Gong, Wang Bi:

視之不見名曰夷。

聽之不聞名曰希。

搏之不得名曰微。

 

I would recommend that if you are going to quote a text then state the source. You are translating from Fuxi's changes which Heshang Gong and Wang Bi follow... and ChiDragon follows.

 

The ultimate test is life.

[ChiDragon]

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the same thing. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

 

BTW: Your ref: 德昏之而弗得命之曰夷

德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.

and昏 should be 捪.

 

捪之而弗得， 命之曰夷

捪 means "touch".

昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint

 

 

In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。

In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

 

Anymore question.....????

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[yiming]

You learn to live the right way from nature... book reading puts in you suspended animation of virtual living. Put the book down and your back to real-life and nature. Lao Zi said "the ancients"... what books did they learn from? In a word, NONE.

 

True. But this applies to those who have the ability to live faultlessly without following a book. The rest of us are compulsive bookworms and you are stuffed with knowledge on the Tao scripts like a walking Wikipedia.

[yiming]

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the something. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

 

BTW: Your ref: 德昏之而弗得命之曰夷

德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.

and昏 should be 捪.

 

捪之而弗得， 命之曰夷

捪 means "touch".

昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint

 

 

In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。

In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

 

Anymore question.....????

If one understand the meanings of those classical characters, one will know that the phrases mean the something. If not, one should spend more time to learn the meanings of these characters.

 

BTW: Your ref: 德昏之而弗得命之曰夷

德 does not belong here. It was a blank space in the original.

and昏 should be 捪.

 

捪之而弗得， 命之曰夷

捪 means "touch".

昏 means dusk; dim; confused; to faint

 

 

In case someone didn't know. 弗 means 不。

In classic, 命 is the same as saying 名(to name something or someone.)。

 

Anymore question.....????

 

弗 means 不 ?

Can you explain how that is so?

[yiming]

弗 is a synonym for 不 ?

[ChiDragon]

FYI...

Here is a good reference of the restored copy of the Tao Te Ching(MWD-A).

Please go to page 四四九（449）for Chapter 14.

 

捪之而弗得， 命之曰夷

 

Ref: Tao Te Ching MWD-A

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

弗 is a synonym for 不 ?

 

Yes.

弗 is a very classical character of saying "no; not"; and

不 is the modern character was most used for "no; not".

[yiming]

Yes.

弗 is a very classical character of saying "no; not"; and

不 is the modern character was most used for "no; not".

 

Chapter 14 has a beautiful form and rhythym to it.

What do you think it is saying?

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 14 Revised

14

1. 視之不見,名曰夷。

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

3. 摶之不得,名曰微。

4. 此三者不可致詰，

5. 故混而為一。

6. 其上不皦，

7. 其下不昧，

8. 繩繩不可名，

9. 復歸於無物。

10.是謂無狀之狀，

11.無物之象，

12.是謂惚恍。

13.迎之不見其首，

14.隨之不見其後。

15.執古之道以御今之有。

16.能知古始，

17.是謂道紀。

 

Translated in terse English...

1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.

4. These three objects are impossible to cross-examine.

5. Thus they are blended into one.

6. Its top not brilliant.

7. Its bottom nor dim.

8. Its continuance unnameable.

9. Returned to being nothingness,

10. Is called form of no form.

11. An image of nothingness,

12. Is called obscure.

13. Greet it cannot see its head.

14. Follow it cannot see its back.

15. Grasp the past of Tao to be driven all the present physical beings

16. Able to understand the ancient origin,

17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

Anymore question.....????

Actually, I only asked one question and you didn't answer that one.

 

But thanks for that link as another reference is always good to have.

[dawei]

True. But this applies to those who have the ability to live faultlessly without following a book. The rest of us are compulsive bookworms and you are stuffed with knowledge on the Tao scripts like a walking Wikipedia.

There was a time when there were no books... and Lao Zi mentions this period of ancients... it is times which have changed and people lose their connection to nature. IMO, It has nothing to do with faultless living; that's an excuse to rely on books instead of nature. Nature has not changed.

[dawei]

弗 is a synonym for 不 ?

http://www.chineseetymology.org/CharacterEtymology.aspx?submitButton1=Etymology&characterInput=%E5%BC%97

[ChiDragon]

1. Actually, I only asked one question and you didn't answer that one.

 

2. But thanks for that link as another reference is always good to have.

 

1. Ain't you lucky, you got more than what you bargained for....!!! I hope you didn't miss anything.

2. Why do you make good use of it...???

[ChiDragon]

弗 is a synonym for 不 ?

http://www.chineseet...racterInput=å¼—

It really didn't say anything. What did you try to show here...???

 

FYI When it comes to classic, one cannot rely on the Etymology.

Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

There was a time when there were no books... and Lao Zi mentions this period of ancients... it is times which have changed and people lose their connection to nature. IMO, It has nothing to do with faultless living; that's an excuse to rely on books instead of nature. Nature has not changed.

 

Do you think that everyone has the same wisdom as LaoTze does....??? Are you out of your mind....???

[dawei]

Do you think that everyone has the same wisdom as LaoTze does....??? Are you out of your mind....???

I think everyone has access to nature. To argue one needs books is just an excuse on some level... But as I said, our modern day and age has broken our natural connections in some way and we apply our idea of self-improvement by turning to books and teachers.

[yiming]

Actually, I only asked one question and you didn't answer that one.

 

But thanks for that link as another reference is always good to have.

 

Chapter 14 Revised

14

1. 視之不見,名曰夷。

2. 聽之不聞,名曰希。

3. 摶之不得,名曰微。

4. 此三者不可致詰，

5. 故混而為一。

6. 其上不皦，

7. 其下不昧，

8. 繩繩不可名，

9. 復歸於無物。

10.是謂無狀之狀，

11.無物之象，

12.是謂惚恍。

13.迎之不見其首，

14.隨之不見其後。

15.執古之道以御今之有。

16.能知古始，

17.是謂道紀。

 

Translated in terse English...

1. View it couldn't see, name and call it Colorless.

2. Listen to it couldn't hear, name and call it Soundless.

3. Touch it couldn't feel, name and call it Formless.

4. These three objects are impossible to cross-examine.

5. Thus they are blended into one.

6. Its top not brilliant.

7. Its bottom nor dim.

8. Its continuance unnameable.

9. Returned to being nothingness,

10. Is called form of no form.

11. An image of nothingness,

12. Is called obscure.

13. Greet it cannot see its head.

14. Follow it cannot see its back.

15. Grasp the past of Tao to be driven all the present physical beings

16. Able to understand the ancient origin,

17. It's called the Principles of Tao.

 

What is the purpose for writing this Chapter?

Seems like a party game of "guess what it is?"

 

Dawei and his gang believe there is something.

I know there is nothing.

 

All the same, it is great poetry and I am listening to it all the time so that I can recite it by heart.

[dawei]

It really didn't say anything. What did you try to show here...???

 

FYI When it comes to classic, one cannot rely on the Etymology.

It shows the character is a negation...

 

It is a rather strange comment to say that when it comes to "classic", one cannot rely on Etymology (origin of a word)...

 

It is a good resource. I think people can decide for themselves if it is useful for them or not.

[dawei]

What is the purpose for writing this Chapter?

Seems like a party game of "guess what it is?"

 

Dawei and his gang believe there is something.

I know there is nothing.

 

All the same, it is great poetry and I am listening to it all the time so that I can recite it by heart.

I would not try to explain a purpose for a single chapter; there are 81 chapters worth reading.

 

But it seems you actually did find a purpose for the chapter. That's good.

 

I'm not into memorizing and reciting although oral history required it before books came along.