yiming Posted September 2, 2012 It shows the character is a negation... It is a rather strange comment to say that when it comes to "classic", one cannot rely on Etymology (origin of a word)... It is a good resource. I think people can decide for themselves if it is useful for them or not. Pardon me. You are misbehaving yourself. This is Sifu Chi's class. All students must show respect. This is the Chinese way. You are probably not Chinese. In a Chinese school, students do not argue with teachers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted September 2, 2012 It shows the character is a negation... It is a rather strange comment to say that when it comes to "classic", one cannot rely on Etymology (origin of a word)... It is a good resource. I think people can decide for themselves if it is useful for them or not. Pardon me. You are misbehaving yourself. This is Sifu Chi's class. All students must show respect. This is the Chinese way. You are probably not Chinese. In a Chinese school, students do not argue with teachers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 2, 2012 Seems like a party game of "guess what it is?" If it is just a game to you then why are you in three threads asking questions about classical chinese and the DDJ? I guess it is because there is something your interested in about the text... as you said, your purpose is to listen and recite it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 2, 2012 Pardon me. You are misbehaving yourself. This is Sifu Chi's class. All students must show respect. This is the Chinese way. You are probably not Chinese. In a Chinese school, students do not argue with teachers. I hope you realize he is not a teacher... but your welcome to call him whatever you want if it helps you. Back to class. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 2, 2012 (edited) What is the purpose for writing this Chapter? Seems like a party game of "guess what it is?" All the same, it is great poetry and I am listening to it all the time so that I can recite it by heart. 15. Grasp the past of Tao to be driven all the present physical beings 16. Able to understand the ancient origin, 17. It's called the Principles of Tao. I think this chapter was telling us that even though Tao is invisible but Tao is always around us. By grokking its presence and study its nature, so we'll have some principles to follow. Edited September 2, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 2, 2012 It shows the character is a negation... It is a rather strange comment to say that when it comes to "classic", one cannot rely on Etymology (origin of a word)... It is a good resource. I think people can decide for themselves if it is useful for them or not. The problem with Etymology is a good source for definitions but it does not distinguish the characters was classic or modern. That's what I meant. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted September 2, 2012 The problem with Etymology is a good source for definitions but it does not distinguish the characters was classic or modern. That's what I meant. I see. Thanks for clarifying. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Riyue Posted September 3, 2012 弗 means 不 ? Can you explain how that is so? fu2 = not is modern chinese... fu2 in daodejing is to be explained in context. kangxi-dictionary lists different contexts... shuowenjiezi explains the meaning in the time it was written.... We have to be conscious that the authors used the terms in their specific way and in dependence of context.. One has to remember the pictogram: two trunks forced together by a rope. --- http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE5ZdicBCZdic97.htm fú 弗 not, negative --- shuowen 弗 (汉典網ZDIC.NET) 撟也。从丿从乀，从韋省。分勿切〖注〗臣鉉等曰：韋所以束枉戾也。 清代段玉裁『說文解字注』 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 矯也。矯各本作撟。今正。撟者，舉手也。引申爲高舉之用。矯者，揉箭箝也。引申爲矯拂之用。今人不能辯者久矣。弗之訓矯也。今人矯，弗皆作拂。而用弗爲不。其誤葢亦久矣。公羊傳曰。弗者，不之深也。固是矯義。凡經傳言不者其文直。言弗者其文曲。如春秋公孫敖如京師，不至而復。晉人納捷葘于邾，弗克納。弗與不之異也。禮記。雖有嘉肴。弗食不知其旨也。雖有至道。弗學不知其善也。弗與不不可互易。从丿丶。丿丶皆有矯意。从韋省。韋者，相背也。故取以會意。謂或左或右皆背而矯之也。分勿切。十五部。 --- kangxi 弗 ·康熙筆画：5 ·部外筆画：2 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (汉典網ZDIC.NET) 《唐韻》《集韻》《韻會》分勿切，音紱。《說文》撟也。《玉篇》不正也。《韻會》違也。 又不也。《書·堯典》績用弗成。《春秋·僖二十六年》公追齊師至巂，弗及。《公羊傳註》弗者，不之深者也。 又《韻會》不可也，不然也。《史記·孔子世家》弗乎弗乎。 又去也。《詩·大雅》以弗無子。《傳》弗，去也。去無子，求有子。《箋》弗之爲言祓也。 又滭弗，盛貌。《司馬相如·子虛賦》滭弗宓汨。 漢典 考證：〔《司馬相如·子虛賦》滭弗宓泊。〕 謹照原文泊改汨。 ------- modern chinese: fú ㄈㄨˊ ◎ 不：弗去。弗许。自愧弗如。 --- 弗 fú 〈动〉 (1) (象形。甲骨文字形,中间象两根不平直之物,上以绳索束缚之,使之平直。本义:矫枉) (2) 同本义 [correct] 弗,矫也。——《说文》。徐灏注:“弗与弼音义同。凡弛弓,则以两弓相背而缚之,以正枉戾,所谓矫也。…阮太傅曰:弗字明是从弓。” (3) 违拗;拂逆 [disobey] 诸君!敌人远我,欲以火器困我也,急逐弗失。——清· 徐珂《清稗类钞·战事类》 (4) 又如:弗声(不要出声) 词性变化 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ◎ 弗 fú 〈形、副〉 (1) 通“沸”( fèi)。泉水喷涌的样子 [gush out of spring water] 其高工之民,修治苦窳之器,聚弗靡之财,蓄积待时而牟农夫之利。——《韩非子》 汹涌彭湃,滭弗密汨。——《汉书·司马相如传》 (2) 通“怫”。怫郁,不舒畅 [heavyhearted;dejected] 吾山平兮钜野溢,鱼弗郁兮柏冬日。——《汉书·沟洫志》 (3) “弗”为“不”的同源字 [not] 其言‘弗遇’何?——《公羊传·桓公十年》。注:“弗,不之深也。” 澭水暴益,荆人弗知。——《吕氏春秋·察今》 台臣弗为理。——明· 高启《书博鸡者事》 (4) 又如:弗招架(方言。不留神;疏忽);弗受用(方言。不舒服;患病);弗翻淘(方言。没有关系);弗识起倒(不知趣;不识好歹) ◎ 弗 fú 〈名〉 (1) 笔 [pen] 笔,楚谓之聿, 吴谓之不律, 燕谓之弗。—— 清· 杭世骏《续方言》 (2) 法国货币法郎的异译 [Franc] --- wenlin "To act against an obstacle. Two divergent rods which one seeks to tie together; 从丿, 从象。束之形。Opposition, prohibition, negation" --Wieger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted September 3, 2012 I think this chapter was telling us that even though Tao is invisible but Tao is always around us. By grokking its presence and study its nature, so we'll have some principles to follow. Sifu Chi, pardon me for asking. "grokking" is not an English word. What does it mean? I first noticed your use of this word when we were studying Chapter 1. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted September 3, 2012 fu2 = not is modern chinese... fu2 in daodejing is to be explained in context. kangxi-dictionary lists different contexts... shuowenjiezi explains the meaning in the time it was written.... We have to be conscious that the authors used the terms in their specific way and in dependence of context.. One has to remember the pictogram: two trunks forced together by a rope. --- http://www.zdic.net/...dicBCZdic97.htm fú 弗 not, negative --- Two trunks forced together by a rope. I really like that imagery. As for the rest of your explanation in Chinese, it's way beyond my level of comprehension. Thanks anyway. I appreciate your contribution and will store it away for further study. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 3, 2012 Sifu Chi, pardon me for asking. "grokking" is not an English word. What does it mean? I first noticed your use of this word when we were studying Chapter 1. Grokking 的意思是：通過感覺意會 Something has to be comprehended through the intuitive senses of the mind but cannot be expressed in words. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted September 3, 2012 Grokking 的意思是：通過感覺意會 Something has to be comprehended through the intuitive senses of the mind but cannot be expressed in words. Grokking is not an English word. Do you mean "groping"? Anyway, I had fun figuring out the Chinese characters in Cantonese. 意思 is yi si = meaning 通過 thoong kor 感覺 ghum ghok = reflect idea 意會 yi wui = Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 3, 2012 (edited) Grokking is not an English word. Do you mean "groping"? Anyway, I had fun figuring out the Chinese characters in Cantonese. 意思 is yi si = meaning 通過 thoong kor 感覺 ghum ghok = reflect idea 意會 yi wui = No, I mean "grokking". It is not, originally, an English word. Read for yourself. Definition of Grok 意思 is yi si = meaning 通過 thoong kor = through 感覺 ghum ghok = reflect idea feeling 意會 yi wui = comprehension by intuition Edited September 3, 2012 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted September 4, 2012 No, I mean "grokking". It is not, originally, an English word. Read for yourself. Definition of Grok Ok, since this word has been used, I guess it counts. I stand corrected. I had a 感覺 that you couldn't have made - what I thought - such a glaring mistake. 意思 is yi si = meaning 通過 thoong kor = through 感覺 ghum ghok = reflect idea feeling 意會 yi wui = comprehension by intuition Yes, "ghum hok" does mean feeling. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted September 4, 2012 Sifu Chi, what do the characters on his chest say? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted September 4, 2012 yiming.... 混沌 means: obscurity; dimness; indistinctness; vagueness. The purpose of having them on his chest, he wants people to know that he is obscure. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yiming Posted September 5, 2012 yiming.... 混沌 means: obscurity; dimness; indistinctness; vagueness. The purpose of having them on his chest, he wants people to know that he is obscure. You are a nice guy, Sifu Chi. I find it difficult to reconcile this human character, from a brash culture, with an affinity for obscurity. Dictionary meaning of 混 is reckless and 沌 is confusion. And Google translated 混沌 as chaos. This crazy-maker, more likely wants to project that he is "Chaos". He is arrested for attempted robbery after his buddy was shot in the heart by a 92 year-old WW 2 veteran in Kentucky. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted September 10, 2012 chinese humour. haha. nice thread btw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Protector Posted October 3, 2012 Man, eating french fry is easier Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 2, 2012 Mandarin was being taught by a westerner. [media] [/media] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted January 14, 2013 心中一无所着，一念一无所思 This beautiful Chinese phrase is too difficult for me to translate. The context is the meaning of the character 静 in Traditional Chinese Martial Training. All your thoughts and suggestions are welcome! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 14, 2013 心中一无所着，一念一无所思 There was not a spellbound in the heart, There was nothing to be considered in the thoughts. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harold Posted January 14, 2013 thank you very much, I find this the best translation so far. Just let me ask you two questions: why did you choose past tense, and can you further comment on spellbound, why did you use this word here? Chidragon, I wish you good Chi.... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Harold.... You're welcome and thank you very much. I wish you well too. It can be either past or present tense. It was the thought that counts. The reason I chose the word was because, the character 着, was implicating 着迷(spellbound). Thus if there was nothing serious in the mind to be occupied, then, the other minor things are insignificant as compared to all. Finally, that will let you to attain the state of 静. Edited January 15, 2013 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Harmonious Emptiness Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) 心中一无所着，一念一无所思 Another way to word it (en mon avis): 心Mind 中Centered 一at one 无without 所dwelling 着movement，一one 念thought, 一at one 无Without 所dwelling in(located in) 思 contemplation. Mind centered and at one, not scattered, nor in habitual movement. The only thought is on the one, without dwelling on this contemplation. nice. Thanks for sharing . Edited January 15, 2013 by Harmonious Emptiness Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
