Chuang Tzu Chapter 7, Section A

[Marblehead]

7. The Normal Course for Rulers and Kings:

 

(Section A)

 

Nie Que put four questions to Wang Ni, not one of which did he know (how to answer). On this Nie Que leaped up, and in great delight walked away and informed Yu-yi Zi of it, who said to him, 'Do you (only) now know it?' He of the line of Yu was not equal to him of the line of Tai. He of Yu still kept in himself (the idea of) benevolence by which to constrain (the submission of) men; and he did win men, but he had not begun to proceed by what did not belong to him as a man. He of the line of Tai would sleep tranquilly, and awake in contented simplicity. He would consider himself now (merely) as a horse, and now (merely) as an ox. His knowledge was real and untroubled by doubts; and his virtue was very true: he had not begun to proceed by what belonged to him as a man.

[XieJia]

what makes a man?

 

reminds me of neitzsche

[Marblehead]

what makes a man?

 

reminds me of neitzsche

Yeah, Nietzsche is one of my main men. What makes a man? Ask ten different people and it is very likely you will get ten different answers.

 

But then, does anything really "belong" to us? The only thing I can think of is what is within myself; my emotions, my ego, my compassion, etc. Everything external is just dust being blown by the wind.

[samwardell]

Marblehead, thanks for the translation .

 

Graham (1981 p 94f) comments on this passage:

 

Gaptooth [Nie Que] and his friends live under the rule of the legendary Shun (whose family was Yu-yu), one of the ideal sages of the Confucians. But Shun preferred the morality which is from man to the spontaneity which is from heaven. Chuang-tzu would rather imagine a sage in the remotest past (the meaning of T'ai is 'ultimate') before there was even a dichotomy of Heaven and man, long before there were logicians distinguishing between 'X' and 'Y', 'ox' and 'horse'.

 

I am personally fascinated by the heaven/man dichotomy touched on here, it is a regular theme appearing in: the opening of Ch 2 (pipes of heaven vs pipes of man), the short 'Commander of the Right' passage in Ch 3; the first dialogue of Ch 4 (Confucius and Yen Hui). It is most explicit in the opening of Ch 6.

 

In general, as in this passage, Chuang-tzu seems to be taking the side of heaven. The sage is one who 'lets heaven act through them' and does not 'proceed with what belongs to man'. I like to think of this in terms of the outer chapter passage (ch 19) of the waterfall swimmer who just "goes with the flow" or butcher Ting of ch 3 who "goes by what is inherently so". I suppose a Buddhist might gloss this idea as 'mindfulness'.

 

I also like the subversion of expectation in this passage; Nie Que's excitement that he managed to formulate several 'unanswerable' questions; and Yu-yi zi having to point out to Nie Que that the lack of an answer is far superior to any answer he could have been given. There's a nice passage in Ch 22 with a similar idea:

 

Lightflash put a question to Nothing's-there: "Are you something, sir? Or isn't there anything there?" Getting no answer, Lightflash looked intently at his continence. It was an unfathomable blank: looking at it all day he did not see, listening to it all day he did not hear, groping at it all day he did not touch. "The utmost!" said Lightflash, "which of us can attain to this?..." (trans Graham 1981)

Edited September 4, 2012 by samwardell

[rene]

Please excuse the off-topic post

 

[...]

In general, as in this passage, Chuang-tzu seems to be taking the side of heaven. The sage is one who 'lets heaven act through them' and does not 'proceed with what belongs to man'. I like to think of this in terms of the outer chapter passage (ch 19) of the waterfall swimmer who just "goes with the flow" or butcher Ting of ch 3 who "goes by what is inherently so".

[...]

 

Sam - your posts are a delight to read. I'm going to grab parts of them (like above, which is clearly laoist thought) to take to the other thread for the LZ-ZZ comparisons. There's little I can contribute towards, here in the ChuangTzu section, but will be reading all the new posts of yours, and everyone's, here.

 

Sorry, MH, for the interruption. (-:

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

Sorry, MH, for the interruption. (-:

 

warm regards

No problem. Yes, it is time for the next section of this Chapter, which I will get to a little later in the day.

[ChiDragon]

齧缺向王倪求教，四次提問王倪四次都不能作答。 齧缺於是跳了起來高興極了，去到蒲衣子處把上述情況告訴給他。

 

蒲 衣子說：“你如今知道了這種情況嗎？虞舜比不上伏羲氏。虞舜他心懷仁義以籠絡人心，獲得了百姓的擁戴，不過他還是不曾超脫出人為的物我兩分的困境。伏羲氏 他睡臥時寬緩安適，他覺醒時悠遊自得；他聽任有的人把自己看作馬，聽任有的人把自己看作牛；他的才思實在真實無偽，他的德行確實純真可信，而且從不曾涉入 物我兩分的困境。”

 

Nie Que(齧缺) turned to Wang Ni(王倪) for help. He asked Wang Ni four times and four times that Wang Ni couldn't answer. Then, Nie Que jumped up and was extremely happy. He went to Yu-yi Zi(蒲衣子) and told he about the situation as mentioned above.

 

Yu-yi Zi said: "You are just now found out about this?" Yu Shun(虞舜) was not comparable to Fu Xi(伏羲). Yu Shun has a heart of benevolence and won the hearts of the people; and he was gained the trust of the people. However, he still has not escaped from the predicament of the human urged materialistic world. When Fu Xi sleeps, he was calm and peaceful. After he woke up, he was so proud of himself; he heard that some people thought of themselves as a horse; and some thought of themselves as an ox. His intellectual wisdom was really true and not fake. His character was pure innocent and trustworthy. Also, he had never stepped into the predicament of the materialistic separation between all things and himself.

Edited September 10, 2012 by ChiDragon