Approval seeking and Wu wei

[doc benway]

Im not sure I believe anybody is so independent as that ! Its possible I suppose , but I figure that to the extent one extends their heart to include another they become vulnerable. In the face of betrayal , divorce, cruelty ,death , I cant see it as virtuous to not be affected.

Stosh

The cool thing is that when you open your heart and really feel the connection to the other, that degree of awareness makes one less vulnerable, not more. When we all share the same heart, we know that the heart is boundless, so when you are gone or I am gone, we are still here, just in a different way.

It's not about being unaffected or independent. It's more about awareness.

Observing one's reaction and just being with it, good and bad.

Weathering the pain and tempering the bliss, knowing that they're opposite sides of the same coin.

And looking at those very judgements of good and bad.

So it's a journey without the expectation of perfection or complete distance, it's more one of acceptance or non-judgement.

I think it dovetails very nicely with Daoist ideas of morality and virtue.

The emotions still come and go but the key is to not be too attached, not to convince oneself that happiness is tied to those transient emotions and the story I tell myself.

After all, what am "I" but that very story itself?

 

 

But to be honest , I figure it is my reactions to other folks which is the biggest disturber of my peace

and to not have that be so would be very nice.

I know enough folks who claim they dont care about the opinions of other folks , but they give away the falsity of the claim in various ways later.

If youve got the solution , its worth a mint!

Exactly - the reaction is in YOU, not the outside world.

Someone with a different set of expectations could react very differently under identical circumstances.

When someone does something that "makes" me feel a certain way, the drill is to look at why I feel that way - where does the reaction come from, does it work for me, if I had a choice would I choose that reaction, do I choose to give the power to someone else to "make" me feel a certain way, are they correct in what they are saying and, if so, why should there be a negative feeling from reality?? And on and on, it's an absolutely fascinating investigation.

Over time, I can see how many of my knee-jerk reactions to things develop - this comes from my grandma, that comes from my father, the other comes from a social convention, that came from my teacher, and so on.

It's certainly not an all or nothing deal, just a path to try and stay on if it feels right to you.

The more I stay on it, the less I struggle with what goes on outside... and inside...

But it it's not easy. It takes enormous energy.

But it's worth it, for me.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

Steve,

I dont disagree on most of the points youre making

But I cant see how " being aware" , does anything more than

add fuel.

The coping mechanisms most folks seem to employ are

walking away , changing the issue , turning the problem at hand into a joke

dismissing the offender behind their back, confront ,etc .. basically

Escape ,attack ,or accept.

Of those, I figure acceptance is the wisest

but there are things I just dont accept , I cant even

get a grip on why it rubs me wrong, it just does! and even if I knew

why , I am not sure it would make any difference at all.

Ill give a fer-instance

I get bent out of shape at folks who just refuse to level with me

like,,, When they say they can turn invisible.

I know they cant !

They know they cant !

Everybody else knows they cant !

But they just refuse to drop the ruse.

Wei wu wei certainly doesnt seem to have any answers for that

Let nature take its course ?

Do nothing harmful to anybody?

What the heck does that have to do with the price of rice in China?

Stosh

[Stosh]

are any values, ideas, thoughts, beliefs....true? 100%

Yes, you just have to specify the perspective along with the truth.

EX ,

Down ,is toward the center of the earth, when you are standing on the earth.

If you are floating in outer space , there is no down per-se.

 

Abstracts can also be true in that they are self fulfilling .

EX:

the number one is exactly 1 always and forever out to the farthest decimal point.

 

There are others, the tao has a whole slew of absolutes normal folks call 'laws of nature'.

And there are logical truisms like "the valley is only so low as the mountain is high"

 

Dont allow the highly suggestible , and those prone to escapism , to undermine your faith in reality.

Stosh

[skydog]

I guees their are actions which lead more directly towards negative feelings because others have certain values, ideas, beliefs...

 

Arguing about gods plan is kind of irrelevant to one who doesnt believe in a christian god

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

Is staying on a path, which one has no reason to continue to believe is valid, an action of the wise or not.

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

I do hope you see all the contradictions in that post Et

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[doc benway]

 

But I cant see how " being aware" , does anything more than

add fuel.

 

Awareness must be the starting point.

If you aren't aware, you are a slave to your conditioning.

If you pay attention, eventually you will begin to see patterns.

I agree that understanding the "why" may or may not be helpful.

But either way, it's very helpful to recognize the patterns.

 

Most of what we do is already done before we're aware of it.

Just becoming aware gives us the opportunity to choose.

 

In terms of the other person who claims to have the power of invisibility, it's most instructive to look at why their choice to make such a claim bothers you... We are surrounded and consumed by the stories that we create and those around us create.

See if you can find a story that you tell yourself or have come to accept that is not completely true.

That's a good place to start when thinking about why someone else claims a power you don't accept...

 

In terms of the question about staying on a path or not -

Excellent question!

- I think the best I can do is to pay attention to whether the path is creating more truth, clarity, and balance in my life.

Does it seem to be bringing me closer to reality or clouding my vision?

Does it help me to understand my values and live them?

Then I make the best choice possible.

It's all such a moving target - but that's the challenge.

That's what makes it interesting and "worth the candle."

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[shanlung]

Agree, and yes, I remember that story.

 

There is a concept that I hold that is not particularly Taoist but I still think it has value: "As long as it harms none."

 

Hmm.. You hold interesting concept, that you determine what is Taoist , or not particularly Taoist.

 

Brothels in those days were places of art and culture. It is peculiarly Western, or should I say American that treated sex as lowly and uncultured lust with little redeeming virtues.

 

Quite amusing to me the way Americans tried to cruxify Clinton for what I felt was no crime and no sin at all between consenting adults.

 

 

Idiot on the Path

[Marblehead]

Hmm.. You hold interesting concept, that you determine what is Taoist , or not particularly Taoist.

 

Brothels in those days were places of art and culture. It is peculiarly Western, or should I say American that treated sex as lowly and uncultured lust with little redeeming virtues.

 

Quite amusing to me the way Americans tried to cruxify Clinton for what I felt was no crime and no sin at all between consenting adults.

 

Idiot on the Path

Oh, I hold some condepts that would appear to be contradictory.

 

I never had a serious problem with sexuality and I agree that the fuss made regarding Clinton was rather silly.

 

Yeah, the "harm none" is a tricky concept. I know of no place where Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu spoke to this and that is why I said it really isn't a Taoist philosophical concept.

[shanlung]

Wow! Nice run of posts Y'all!!!

 

I watched a movie last night titled "Immortals" (the Greek ones).

 

And yes, the gods interferred in the doings of man.

 

But what does "Do no harm" really mean? It isn't a Taoist concept. Does it mean I cannot harm (and kill) any animal or plant in order to feed myself? I don't think so. Does it mean I cannot harm a person who is trying to kill me? Again, I don't think so.

 

Time to evoke WuWei and act/do things the natural way.

 

Drink when you are thirsty

 

Eat when you are hungry

 

Fornicate if you are horny

 

All within the Tao, especially if you do not think too much

 

A oerfectly Idiotic outlook on life is a good outlook

 

Go max your happiness and min your aggro

(including sending the one who want to kill you into his next incarnation)

 

 

Idiotic Taoist

Edited September 12, 2012 by shanlung

[Marblehead]

All within the Tao, especially if you do not think too much

Yeah, that used to be a problem for me - I used to think too much. I am getting much better at not thinking.

 

And yes, be natural. That is even beyond Wu Wei, I think, more at Tzujan. (But there I go thinking again.)

[shanlung]

Yeah, that used to be a problem for me - I used to think too much. I am getting much better at not thinking.

 

And yes, be natural. That is even beyond Wu Wei, I think, more at Tzujan. (But there I go thinking again.)

 

You need a good Master with a stick and watchful mind.

To give you a whack everytime you go thinking again.

 

Like my Taiji Masters. Everytime I used muscles and Intent instead of tingjing and total relaxness, they knew it instantly and the next instant I go flying to greet the ground in a fresh new way.

To the point you get frightened shit scared of using muscles and intent.

Flying is painful.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[skydog]

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Edited September 12, 2012 by sinansencer

[skydog]

also et- thoughts...I apologise I kind of believe in god or universal godness but not really sure about whether religion has been corrupted but the points you make dispelled some beliefs out,

[Stosh]

There were those that felt he betrayed his wife , that he lied under oath about it

and that he disgraced the office , many of them wanted to find reasons to justify

an attack they already had in mind.

I liked and still like Bill Clinton , he had a pretty good presidency as far as it affected me,,

and I dont give a darn about his sex life.

But to most Americans , lies and betrayal , and literally perjury, are all offenses.

Maybe such lies and betrayal arent offensive elsewhere, maybe in places,such is the norm.

Stosh

Its quite ironic

I want to smash folks with a stick when they have stopped thinking!

Edited September 12, 2012 by Stosh

[Stosh]

Oh, I hold some condepts that would appear to be contradictory.

 

I never had a serious problem with sexuality and I agree that the fuss made regarding Clinton was rather silly.

 

Yeah, the "harm none" is a tricky concept. I know of no place where Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu spoke to this and that is why I said it really isn't a Taoist philosophical concept.

Mh , Im not sure whether it is or isnt directly a common Taoist concept

Im just tossing out the idea that some of the concepts can be implied or

indirect.

for instance..

If one is going around doing harm , the likely long term

reprecussions are likely negative, and therefore contraindicated whether

or not anyone spelled it out in that particular way.

In regards to this I think there is evidence that suggests that they

suggested stuff like to "arrange circumstances so that the general populace

will cooperate in their own self interest and according to their own inspirations."

Not having to force folks into cooperation is harmonious , but arranging win win scenarios

was the job of leaders , it requires understanding and sophistication.

So stupidity was to be promulgated as a virtue for the masses and wisdom for the rulers.

In todays day and age leadership is more democratized , sophistication and subtlety can

be the tools of all in arranging harmonious relationships.

If this wasnt the case , I suppose I could be more understanding of those promoting

lack of all knowlege, as a virtue rather than lack of predispositions due to biased

socialization. The much vaunted flexibility lies in having options , knowlege is power and

provides options.

To understand that the lessons were for particular classes of people ,, removes some of the contradictions.

So as a general code of behavior I would say that the do no harm credo

makes fairly good second teir reasoning.

But thats just my personal opinion.

(which may wind down since Im tired of hitting folks with sticks)

 

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts