Stosh Posted September 12, 2012 Awareness must be the starting point. If you aren't aware, you are a slave to your conditioning. If you pay attention, eventually you will begin to see patterns. I agree that understanding the "why" may or may not be helpful. But either way, it's very helpful to recognize the patterns. Most of what we do is already done before we're aware of it. Just becoming aware gives us the opportunity to choose. In terms of the other person who claims to have the power of invisibility, it's most instructive to look at why their choice to make such a claim bothers you... We are surrounded and consumed by the stories that we create and those around us create. See if you can find a story that you tell yourself or have come to accept that is not completely true. That's a good place to start when thinking about why someone else claims a power you don't accept... In terms of the question about staying on a path or not - Excellent question! - I think the best I can do is to pay attention to whether the path is creating more truth, clarity, and balance in my life. Does it seem to be bringing me closer to reality or clouding my vision? Does it help me to understand my values and live them? Then I make the best choice possible. It's all such a moving target - but that's the challenge. That's what makes it interesting and "worth the candle." Ill try to take your advice Steve But it may just be that my conditioning is too deeply ground in and the anchor is buried in mud. Ill look again. Stosh ( I like that moving target analogy too) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) Its much easier for the leader to lead when the mass of folks want to be lead ... "Not having to force folks into cooperation is harmonious , but arranging win win scenarios was the job of leaders , it requires..." - '...understanding and sophistication' - convincing others to cooperate... which sometimes is easier archived through their ignorance of the issues and promulgated obedience to the leader who knows best... The stupidity was to be promulgated as a virtue for the masses to facilitate despot rulers ruling... anyone who dare say the truth was sagaciously covertly silenced, excluded and executed... Though I am not sure how you mean that post.. I cant see anything in there I dont consider a valid perspective. Have a nice evening Et Stosh Ps I think we are on the same page for that second post as well , but I would volunteer that although the tendency is to distrust all a man does for the failures in some areas, If you look at the actual resultant record of the results of his leadership .. they werent bad years. Vlad the Impaler has a really bad reputation now adays , but back "in the day" he was a very effective leader and loved by his people -or so I read. Edited September 12, 2012 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 12, 2012 Flying is painful. Hehehe. Flying is fun - it's the sudden landing that hurts. I tried getting married and that didn't work. I think having a Master would be even worse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted September 12, 2012 So as a general code of behavior I would say that the do no harm credo makes fairly good second teir reasoning. But thats just my personal opinion. Stosh I agree with what you said Stosh. It is still better to lead by example rather than with the stick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 13, 2012 Become aware and distinguish: - is seems that way because it be that way - 'what seems to be' just seems that way but is actually just an imitation of the real stuff Better yet focus on what actually be, regardless of how it looks or appears to be How to know the difference? Can they be one and the same? Can it change? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 13, 2012 Why apologize for believing in God... No need to apologize to anyone. The question that puzzles me is how (or why) do we believe in something if we have no idea at all what it is? (well, in fact, I do understand it - we believe exactly because we have no idea of what it is. The belief gives us security in the absence of knowledge). In other words, do you know what God is? In her entirety? If so, there is no need to believe because you already know. If not, then what the hell does it mean to say "I believe in God?" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Can they be one and the same? NO 'what be' be 'what be' ... what isn't isn't No such thing as a paradox or contradiction then? I would be quite comfortable saying that our very existence and reality itself are paradoxical... Q - Is light a wave or a particle? A - It depends on how you look at it... Ed - My sig expresses a fundamental paradox of existence Edited September 13, 2012 by steve Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 13, 2012 we believe in something because thats our nature... what we choose to believe in... now thats the key question... BTW many do have some idea of what it is they believe in... the question is why do they believe as they believe... To some the beliefs gives them a security in the absence of knowledge to some the beliefs gives them a justification to act in a certain way to some the beliefs are just there because the beliefs are just there we could get into the nighty-giddy of which beliefs each holds though some may feel a bit of vertigo seeing the wobbling foundations upon which their certainty stands... You are right a belief exists in the absence of knowledge... is sort of a bridge that helps one to get to know and once one knows it sort of banishes ... Dogmas of faith are similar, those who know the truth will recognize the veracity of the dogma. Beliefs also serve as the foundations upon which one stands... and may even produce the experiences one experiences. Ultimately it may all boil down to who and what each chooses to believe... Personally I like to believe that there is a reality independent of what I choose to claim to be... that is if I grab hydrogen and oxygen and light them up it becomes water regardless of what I think will happen Be careful how you use belief and faith. I like how Alan Watts contrasts the two - ""...because I believe that there is a strong distinction between faith on the one hand and belief on the other. That belief is as a matter of fact quite contrary to faith, because belief is really wishing, it's from the Anglo-Saxon root Leaf/ve (?) = to wish, and belief stated say in the creed, is a fervant hope that the universe will turn out to be thus and so, and in this sense therefor belief precludes the possibility of faith, because faith is openness to truth to reality - whatever it may turn out to be." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 13, 2012 Just lost what I had and now will have to recreate it as best as I can... dang I had so much already and I really liked it... indeed we better be quite careful with the use of terms... belief is as a matter of fact, quite different from, faith that is a fact of the spirit, then there is insight that is a fact of the mind and intuition that is more of a feeling. hope - expectation and desire for a certain thing to happen: belief - trust, or confidence for a certain thing to happen: faith - complete trust or confidence based on spiritual poise honesty and sincerity would fit better than faith for what is openness to truth to reality - whatever it may turn out to be. Oh and please lets keep a somewhat relatively flexible position realizing that the words one uses may or may not mean exactly what we think... we may need to be validated and ensure we are talking about the same thing... sometimes a rat means one thing and sometimes it means something else... the absolute meaning is set once and for all when used... the crux of the matter is that this happens every time the word is used and when it is used again it get another absolute meaning that may or may not correspond to the previous one... I think belief is different than trust or confidence. It is accepting an explanation for something unknown. It is the absence of trust or confidence. It's dependence. Just semantics really, when you talk about the words. But it is instructive to look at what our "beliefs" are and to see our relationship to them. Yes, good point that faith is closely related to sincerity and honesty. In terms of paradox being at the heart of reality. It has to do with self-examination. You come to a point where the very "me" is a paradox. That's really the beginning and end of the path. But you've got to do the work for yourself, otherwise it's just words. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog Posted September 13, 2012 Approval seeking ? Why apologize for believing in God... I do understand many a folk and spirit will cringe at the mention of God, rather than be at ease and inviting God to play along... Only God can ensure one gets it right... and everyone plays fair...personally I welcome and invite God to partake in the experiences... I am sure many a religion and many a man has been corrupted... though thats hardly provides an excuse to dispel the truths with the lies... many seek to do just that ... dispel the truths with the lies... me I prefer to expose the truths about everything... and learn a thing or two... Well Im saying that my idea of god is more like tao which is kind of like god...and perhaps a little insensitive to say "I dont believe in god" I apologise when I feel I have done something harmful out of annoyance or ignorance...maybe it had a small element of approval seeking i dont think so really Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydog Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Well personally I find edit most moral based religions a very repressive religion thats destroys naturalness through superficial moral ideas and a lot of these so called priests seem to know little of what they are preaching about. When you have too many rules, regulations, codes, ideas, beliefs, it is of my belief that you thoroughly mess up someones psyche and sense of self esteem even enlightenment, people start TRYING TO DO AS MANY GOOD THINGS as possible, like these do-gooders, so unnatural.. Is it good to educate people? Is it bad to die early? Is it bad to feel pain? Is it bad to defend yourself with agression? Is it bad to lie sometimes? Is it bad to boast occasionally? Imo things that create fear and guilt in the mind are unneccesary and destroy spirituality, fear and guilt is what causes unhappiness and disharmonious actions.. further more people preach about a man in the sky that knows whats best for them and is always watching them and will punish them, this idea is kind of messed up, also creating more and more fear and paranoi but of course good for the edit extremely wealthy moral religions" who are extremely wealthy... when you mess up someones self esteem, create unnneccessary guilt for every possible thing, how do you know your doing wrong...I rely on myself for judgement not a few ideas written by someone else. Is it bad to lie in a job interview to get a job to get things you want? One may reply yes if the people need it, well how can one define what is needed and what is not, especially when some of these moral religions are so rich. I could go on and on with philosophies. Normally I like to leave people with their beliefs..but I get annoyed by moral religions trying to push morality in my throat Edited September 13, 2012 by sinansencer Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted September 13, 2012 I would think that the flying was rather peaceful and pleasant ... the landing well thats another matter :-) True...True It was the fear of that landing that detracted me from the peaceful and pleasant sensation of flying through the air. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted September 13, 2012 There were those that felt he betrayed his wife , that he lied under oath about it and that he disgraced the office , many of them wanted to find reasons to justify an attack they already had in mind. I liked and still like Bill Clinton , he had a pretty good presidency as far as it affected me,, and I dont give a darn about his sex life. But to most Americans , lies and betrayal , and literally perjury, are all offenses. Maybe such lies and betrayal arent offensive elsewhere, maybe in places,such is the norm. Stosh Its quite ironic I want to smash folks with a stick when they have stopped thinking! We seen that stature of Clinton since those days, to the present time. That represent to me the Statesman Clinton And for what you have said, I like to wonder which come first, the chicken or the egg. Clinton was walled in by all those society rules . Should anyone be walled in by those rules? He should have turned around and tell them all it is not their business to ask and not for him to say and that they all go take a hike. Sadly, he did not do that. I am not American to know if he could do that at all? As who am I? Just an Idiotic Taoist Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shanlung Posted September 13, 2012 Well personally I find edit most moral based religions a very repressive religion thats destroys naturalness through superficial moral ideas and a lot of these so called priests seem to know little of what they are preaching about. When you have too many rules, regulations, codes, ideas, beliefs, it is of my belief that you thoroughly mess up someones psyche and sense of self esteem even enlightenment, people start TRYING TO DO AS MANY GOOD THINGS as possible, like these do-gooders, so unnatural.. Is it good to educate people? Is it bad to die early? Is it bad to feel pain? Is it bad to defend yourself with agression? Is it bad to lie sometimes? Is it bad to boast occasionally? Imo things that create fear and guilt in the mind are unneccesary and destroy spirituality, fear and guilt is what causes unhappiness and disharmonious actions.. further more people preach about a man in the sky that knows whats best for them and is always watching them and will punish them, this idea is kind of messed up, also creating more and more fear and paranoi but of course good for the edit extremely wealthy moral religions" who are extremely wealthy... when you mess up someones self esteem, create unnneccessary guilt for every possible thing, how do you know your doing wrong...I rely on myself for judgement not a few ideas written by someone else. Is it bad to lie in a job interview to get a job to get things you want? One may reply yes if the people need it, well how can one define what is needed and what is not, especially when some of these moral religions are so rich. I could go on and on with philosophies. Normally I like to leave people with their beliefs..but I get annoyed by moral religions trying to push morality in my throat If laws are all that will be required, there should be no murders in the world. And no crime either. There had been, and still are enough laws to stop all that. But I could not but recall the 3000 year old teachings of Lao Tze in that Taoist Bible , the Tao De Ching Verse 57 which go somewhat like this The more laws and restrictions there are, The poorer people become. The sharper men's weapons, The more trouble in the land. The more ingenious and clever men are, The more strange things happen. The more rules and regulations, The more thieves and robbers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) We seen that stature of Clinton since those days, to the present time. That represent to me the Statesman Clinton And for what you have said, I like to wonder which come first, the chicken or the egg. Clinton was walled in by all those society rules . Should anyone be walled in by those rules? He should have turned around and tell them all it is not their business to ask and not for him to say and that they all go take a hike. Sadly, he did not do that. I am not American to know if he could do that at all? As who am I? Just an Idiotic Taoist Sure he couldve done that , told everyone to "take a hike" he just thought the repercussions of doing that were worse than ( his estimations of) taking the path he took. Should one be walled in by societal rules ? Thats a really tough question. I think the Classical ones suggest that voluntarily instituted social rules are permissible and for the benefit of all ,and That they should be implemented impartially to the president and non-president alike. I personally figure that the system we have here is exactly the controlled chaos That Chuang Tzu championed. Since it relies on the common nature of all our citizens to provide a sort of voluntary order combined with freedom to pursue ones own wellbeing. (fits wu wei and TzuJan nicely) There are societal paradigms here which I agree are not wise , that I would rather see gone. But it makes sense for me to accept what the situation is right now , refrain from excessive resentment or judgement about the faults , and live with the consequences of my own choices. Our opinions do not seem very far apart on this You arent Idiotic at all, you should drop that tag line ,its not true. IMHO Stosh Edited September 13, 2012 by Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rene Posted September 13, 2012 No such thing as a paradox or contradiction then? I would be quite comfortable saying that our very existence and reality itself are paradoxical... Q - Is light a wave or a particle? A - It depends on how you look at it... Ed - My sig expresses a fundamental paradox of existence (Steve's sig:) With wisdom, I see that I am nothing With love, I see I am everything My life dances between the two - Nisargadatta Steve, it's only a paradox or contradiction if one is stuck in 'either/or' mindset. Light is both particle and wave at the same time. You are nothing and everything at the same time. Both. warm regards Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted September 13, 2012 Steve, it's only a paradox or contradiction if one is stuck in 'either/or' mindset. Light is both particle and wave at the same time. You are nothing and everything at the same time. Both. warm regards Shhh...You're not supposed to give it away so easily! Paradox is a consequence of our thought process and conventions. Reality has no problem with paradox, only people do... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
