Marblehead Posted September 18, 2012 . Now that was profound! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 Wu Wei is neither non-action nor effortless action. Wu Wei is the action that does not create karma (or kefaret in Islam) How is it possible? For instance, a Samurai killing his enemy and not creating karma? I may explain this from an anecdote from history of Islam. Hazrat Ali was in a war and he made his opponent fall down. Before he can kill his opponent, the man spit on Hazrat Ali's face. Then, Hazrat Ali withdrew his sword and did not kill the man. The man asked the reason for not being killed. "I was fighting against you for a just cause, we are in a war and I am fighting for the will of Allah. But when you spit on my face, I got angry, I can not kill you for my self (nafs), I am not a murderer" was his reply. This is Wu Wei Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 12, 2012 I may explain this from an anecdote from history of Islam. Interesting way of looking at the concept. Thanks for joining the conversation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 12, 2012 I had shut my computer down for the morning but had to return to this because it kept bothering my mind. That story captures the concept of karma very well. Many people appear to have a concept that karma means do good and good happens to you, do bad and bad happens to you. This is an oversimplified misinterpretation. Karma is more about unfulfilled desire. It is attachment/aversion that is unresolved. It creates suffering through this attachment and an inability to find neutrality with one's situation. What a beautiful concept: Unfulfilled desires and unreleased attachments. Now Viator, I'm not going to convert to Buddhism just because of this but I think what you presented above is the 'bottom line' in so far as attaining inner peace (and all the other stuff various religions and philosophies teach us). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Evidently doing stuff because one got angry and doing it out of the conviction one be doing what needs to be done reflect quite different attitudes. Indeed one should be ones own master oneself and always carefully choose what one does. Thus I think I get the core of the story and like the idea that 'Wu Wei is the action that does not create karma (or kefaret in Islam)'... There is a secondary issue in the story which I consider worth pondering and wondering about... - The issue of it being a just cause to do a certain thing. I am all for following and embracing 'The will of Allah' in a way I am all for following and embracing the way. What I wonder about is the paradoxical notion of 'fighting for peace'. To me 'fighting is fighting' and I have a difficult time reconciling that 'the will of Allah' involves 'fighting', it seems to me that the will of Allah, the way of tao, involves peace and freely embracing and cultivating love, understanding, wisdom, truth, joy, enlightenment... and a bunch of other stuff. does the statement: "I was fighting against you for a just cause...", correspond to what one ought to do for a just cause? does the statement: "we are in a war and I am fighting for the will of Allah", actually reflect the will of Allah? Stated in a different way is the way of tao to fight agains someone/something for some reason? "the action that does not create karma (or kefaret in Islam)" involves a negation... and I wonder if that ought to negates the statement? I like to say that we are bound to believe while free to choose what to believe... bound to act while free to choose what to do... bond to choose while free as to what we choose... Its paradoxical that some choose: 'not to choose' rather than choosing a choice that involves recognition of choosing! In a similar way we are bound to create karma while free to choose which karma to create. In a slightly more general form : we are bound to create while free to choose what to create! Do you want to create NOTHING or want to create SOMETHING? Karma is actually a Turkish word which is still in use today. It had been transferred to Sanskrit language thousands of years ago. In modern Turkish, it means "mixed". When you create karma, you mix things in a way that it should not be, just like a terrible soup that you put many unnecessary things in it. I could not understand the last two paragraphs of et-thoughts but I sincerely hope I could help. Since everybody in this forum are used to "Taoist" literature, may be you remember, in "Magus of Java", John Chang speaking with a higher being in the jungle, asking whether it is all right to have fights as a head master of Mo-Pai martial arts school. If I remember correctly, the reply was "it is important what you feel in your heart." If a Samurai is fighting for a just cause and additionally if he does not have hate, anger or fear in his heart, even he cuts his opponent, there will be no karma. In Sufism, heart is connected to God. If you keep your heart free of rust, debris (that you do not have sins) and you follow a humble Islamic life, then you may have the chance to connect to God by special techniques of different Sufi schools (tarikat). You want to create something that is in line with the will of God. Edited October 12, 2012 by winniepooh_ank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted October 12, 2012 Thats very interesting , and may be true, i dont contest it , it makes sense It also allows me to dissect some innocent like a laboratory frog , or blow up a school bus as long as I can say "Hey Its just business, Nothing personal" Stosh Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Thats very interesting , and may be true, i dont contest it , it makes sense It also allows me to dissect some innocent like a laboratory frog , or blow up a school bus as long as I can say "Hey Its just business, Nothing personal" Stosh To dissect some innocent like a laboratory frog or blow up a school bus can not be justified with any cause. Period. I understand that somebody can make such a comment if he/she is not following his/her heart. Pretty common nowadays. Edited October 12, 2012 by winniepooh_ank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 winniepooh_ank my last two paragraphs center on the notion: - What is in line with the will of God? Stated in a different way, is the way of tao is: - to fight agains someone/something for some reason? - to create? As a side issue I was pointing out something that I consider crucial and underlying the reasons that I am here. I wonder if beings need to think in dualistic positive-negative ways or just happen to think in such ways dew to a negative involvement? I hold that certain notions tint what we experience and that we ought to find a way to adapt to this situation in such a way that ensures 'we see to be' what happens to be ... (not what we think to be or believe to be or feel to be or imagine to be). IS what one holds to be 'the will of God' in line with the will of God? IS what one holds to be in line with what happens to be? If you ask me... we are bound to create while free to choose what to create! the question becomes what do you want to create? what are you creating with your actions, words, thought, feelings, beliefs, being? Once upon a time, I was interested in Taoism but not now. I do not and I can not make any comments about the way of Tao Sorry. I am not interested in Taoism and I do not have any intention to follow "the way of Tao" at all. Just be a good person as described in Holy Quran or in New Testament or in Old Testament. That is it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Dear et-thoughts, English is not my native language and I really have difficulty in understanding your questions. Please write in a much more simpler but clearly way. For instance, you are asking: Stated in a different way, is the way of GOD, (Allah, the way or whatever name you choose to use) - to fight agains someone/something for some reason? - to create? What do you mean by create? Create what? Edited October 12, 2012 by winniepooh_ank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 create |krēˈāt| bring (something) into existence: he created a thirty-acre lake | over 170 jobs were created. • cause (something) to happen as a result of one's actions: divorce only created problems for children. • (of an actor) originate (a role) by playing a character for the first time.• [ with obj. and complement ] invest (someone) with a new rank or title: he was created a baronet. Create what? Now that is the real question! what do you want/choose to create? I did not ask the meaning of to create? To create what? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 12, 2012 Just be a good person as described in Holy Quran or in New Testament or in Old Testament. That is it. I am an Atheist. Will you still talk with me? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 Actually you did ask the meaning of create ... when you posted "What do you mean by create? Create what? " As I said in my previous post : Create what? - Now that is the real question! what do you want/choose to create? What I am stating is that the way of GOD be to create... what to create? divine wonderful stuff that can create! Of course some creatures have taken this capacity to create stuff not in line with the way of God rather than only create stuff in line with the perfect way of God... Dear et-thoughts, I can only discuss things which make sense. Your sayings do not make any sense. Sorry Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) I am an Atheist. Will you still talk with me? Sure. Edited October 12, 2012 by winniepooh_ank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) Sorry, I made a mistake and entered the same entry twice Edited October 12, 2012 by winniepooh_ank Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 I'm agnostic personally, but I'm trying to figure out why a Christian and a Muslim came to a Wu wei thread in a Taoist Discussion forum to argue about a Hebrew god... It almost sounds like the setup for a joke. Two guys walk into a bar... I would have thought the second guy would have ducked. Let us say freedom of speech By the way, all the Abrahamic religions stand on the same ground. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
winniepooh_ank Posted October 12, 2012 The first answer does little to actually clarify the matter. With regard to the second answer, what does that have to do with the OP, or anything else for that matter? I could not understand Sir. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
et-thoughts Posted October 12, 2012 (edited) . Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted October 12, 2012 Sure. Great. I just needed to make sure I understood where you were coming from. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
