Approval seeking and Wu wei

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[winniepooh_ank]

Why do you cede and give the power to offend you, to others?

I am sure someone would and did defended you, without your knowing it.

Indeed look at the situation...

What you think to be and what happens to be can be quite different things.

Indeed there currently exists a double standard here ...

Be careful with what you hope and wish for ... you may get it! and by the way know that what you thought that nobody would stand and intercede for the truth here was wrong... many will stand up to bear witness to the truth here (they just need to realize what be the truth) .

Indeed the strange ideas some tell are not understood by others...

Sure you/I/others can let somebody insult us, if a stupid fool tells us that we are stupid fools do we feel insulted or sorry for the stupid fool who does not know the truth? (oh and I am not saying anyone here is a stupid fool, in fact only stupid fools would think that and feel foolish and stupid intelligent beings would see the truth and smile... so smile)

I think you can express your ideas perfectly and can understand others ideas perfectly... it may take a little work and patience but it quite possible... and doable

 

Indeed best regards now and always

 

Thank you for your support. You have a clean heart which is a very important asset.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[JustARandomPanda]

I am sorry but I will be offended if you say my idea is silly.

 

Engage in even more daily meditation? Go for a very long walk or get up from the keyboard/monitor and go engage in an activity that has zero to do with the forum?

 

I find the above helpful whenever people get offended about something.

 

Also...you could check into the writings of Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius, Seneca, Lao Tzu (although I'm guessing you've already read him), etc. There's some very good advice said by those old dudes for the vagaries of life when emotions get riled.

 

Secondly, if just the opposite happened, if I had called one of Viator's ideas as silly, I am sure nobody would have defended me and I would have been kicked out of this forum instantaneously.

 

Getting kicked off the forum for using the word silly (or even the words 'that's f**ked up') to comment on an idea? Nope. Wouldn't happen. The Mod system is biased toward inaction. There is often disagreement among the Mod team of what counts as a violation. If the majority of Mods disagree how, what or if there was a violation the default is that no action will be taken. Naturally anyone who believes it's obvious action needs to be taken (or vise versa) and then notices nothing happens (or vise versa) will conclude it was obvious biased modding.

 

 

Also I often remind people TTB has an Ignore function and it comes in very handy. I've used it myself on several occasions.

 

 

Dear SereneBlue, please answer honestly, would you defend me in the exactly same position? I do not think so. I am sensing a serious double standard here.

 

Your perception is your perception. But just want to point out no one in this thread has actually been suspended. In any case suspension is a big deal and requires the agreement of more than one Mod that that is the necessary and correct action to take for a specific offense.

 

I hope I am wrong. I was interested in Taoism until 2008 (and I have no idea about the meaning of the term Taoist in a non Chinese society, so I say I was interested in Taoism instead of saying I was a Taoist) Now I am defending Islamic and spiritual ideas in the forum about Wei-Wu-Wei.

 

Great! Keep at it! Nobody is trying to shut down discussion of ideas.

Although I would suggest to everyone (not just you only) if the topic diverges a lot from the OP in this thread it's probably a good signal the off-shoot is worthy of a new thread.

 

Please understand me, I am sensing the hostile feelings of people because I am telling completely strange ideas to them.

I can not let anybody to insult me, otherwise it will be a habit very rapidly. And also, my English is at primary school level as vocabulary. I can not express my ideas 100 % because of this.

 

Oh that's typical most everywhere in life. Haven't you ever heard the old advice to avoid talking about religion or politics when in a group of acquaintances? Hostility over differing ideas (most of which said "unknown ideas" are well-known already - just disagreed with vehemently) is a typical reactionary trait. If you discuss ideas that have a tendency of inciting wars (religion, politics, economics) across human history I would think you'd have grown skin thick enough to take the heat here and keep on ticking.

 

I'm not disputing you sense hostile feelings. I don't doubt viator senses hostile feelings radiating from you as well. But I'm not going to suspend either you or Viator (or anyone else for that matter) for heated exchanges about ideas - no matter how deeply offended someone may personally be. He (or anyone else for that matter) could've even said "pairing sin and wu wei is f**ked up" and I would let that 'simply be'. I suspect most of the other Mods would do the same.

 

BTW:

 

That's fine if you disagree with how TTB is modded. Join the club!

 

We've had quite a few threads over the years here about how awful this place is Modded. I always grin whenever I see such inevitable threads pop up. The vast majority of forums I'm a participant of have it in their official ToS that the forum participants are forbidden to ever discuss Mod actions and many of those forums make such threads or PMs a permanent ban-able offense. This is just one big difference you see at TTB and most other forums on the web. But here - we don't do that. And I doubt there will ever be anything like that put in the official ToS.

 

If you disagree with Mod actions well..it just is what it is and history is full of such. There's lots of people who disagree with U.S. Supreme Court rulings as well (anyone else think corporations are 'persons' is about as f**ked a ruling as you can possibly get? ).

 

If you wish to find more suitable pastures that are in line with your interpretation of the events in this thread that is up to you. You are certainly welcome here. No one that I can see is escorting you to the exit. I personally hope you will stay as diverse ideas make for lively (albeit typically heated) debates.

[JustARandomPanda]

And Now...

 

We return to this thread's originally scheduled programming.

[Marblehead]

We've had quite a few threads over the years here about how awful this place is Modded. I always grin whenever I see such inevitable threads pop up.

 

Hehehe. That's because you, I and others remember when we had no moderation here. Fun but very testy!

[三江源]

Hehehe. That's because you, I and others remember when we had no moderation here. Fun but very testy!

 

I dont recall having no moderation here.. Sean was always here... did I miss something?!

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[XieJia]

Et, you are welcome to call me "Silly" any day.

For I know what I am.

 

In moving on? Why?

Cause there's no more reason to stay.

 

(Sorry I edited my post)

Edited October 15, 2012 by XieJia

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[XieJia]

Hello Et,

 

What I did was suggesting the alternative that one can take the word "Silly" without taking an offense.

In mentioning that these moments also happens to everyone. As we discover new ways or better way of doing things, some might come to realize that the previous way is abit "Silly".

 

What I express as being Silly is not when others called me funny but the "Anger" that could comes up in me when confront with my own anger. In a way, "Silly" in my language isn't negative at all.

 

I do understand how you just made a silly comment to express what you considered and how someone choose to feel offended by it and express what they considered...

 

I am also confused by what you said, I didn't called anyone "Silly" here other than myself.

 

English is not my first language, I found it hard to understand your English.

That's why I previously asked about your background/language

because I thought I might be able to understand you better.

 

I am not sure how I come across as what you referred as the Kindergarten interaction? Would you mind to elaborate?

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[XieJia]

In mentioning 'that these moments also happen to everyone' I see that you are avoiding owning up to the situation. Even now I feel that you feel justified in your actions and defending them rather than say something along the lines of 'ups did not mean that, sorry' I an pretty certain you feel like why would I apologize if I didn't do anything wrong! Please be honest and validate if this is the case... just as a courtesy to validate that indeed I perceive accurately what you feel like when reading this... I could be wrong or right but its up to you to validate it...

 

Dear ET,

 

Please take the context of what I said to what I have commented together.

I mentioned that this happens to everyone meaning:

"We always find a new and better of doing things, in realizing this; we sometimes comes to see our "own" previous action as being "less better" than the new-found way.

In a way, I substitute the word silly with "less better". It have many thousands more substitutes.

 

I would like to apologize if there's anything I could apologize for; if anything I did was wrong.

Please kindly point it out, I might not be able to see it.

Please do tell me. It was never in my intention to offend anybody.

 

I also not sure, whether I own this situation more or less to any other body in this forum.

I do not understand what and why you said I am avoiding.

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[winniepooh_ank]

I want to give a different example of committing sins and generating karma is correlated and generating karma is not a function of unfulfilled desires.

 

As far as I remember, in the book Magus of Java by Kostas Danaos, the story of John Chang's master was told. He was from a village. There was another neighbour village and two villages were quarreling about water source as they have drought. Anyway, when he was level 30, he returned back to his village from the Taoist monastery to see everybody including women and children have been recently killed by the other villages warriors. Then, he went to other village and killed everybody like the angel of death. Kostas Danaos thought that George Lucas used this idea in "Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones", Anakin Skywalker killing the tribe of Tuskens.

 

When the master regained his senses after the massacre, he was worried for his soul because he has generated a lot of karma and as a Taoist, he knew the consequences.

 

Now by killing everybody in the village, the master fulfilled his desire. eeee? He should not have generated karma?

 

On the contrary, by committing this great great sin, he generated lots of karma. So committing sin and generating karma are closely correlated.

Edited October 15, 2012 by winniepooh_ank

[winniepooh_ank]

As a second example, I would like to replace Adolf Hitler with Genghis Khan.

 

If you compare Genghis Khan with Mother Teresa.

 

Genghis Khan has fulfilled his desires, he got the ultimate political power, he conquered almost all Asia. Thus, he fulfilled his desires. If, I am repeating, If (this is a conditional sentence) Mother Teresa has more unfulfilled desires than Genghis Khan, she should have generated more karma than Genghis Khan?

 

A definite No! here.

 

Genghis Khan is the murderer of millions of people. He has served his nafs and also served Satan. (Nafs as in sufism) He has generated much much more karma than Mother Teresa. The famous Quanzhen sect Taoist master Qiu Chuji has visited Genghis Khan 1220-1221 A.D. and warned him that he has generated lots of karma by ordering death of so many people. (http://www1.chinaculture.org/library/2008-02/04/content_24919.htm)

 

From these two examples, you may understand that Taoist masters (real taoist masters) are well aware that committing sins generate karma. Bigger the sin, bigger the karma.

[winniepooh_ank]

You seem to continue to misunderstand the concepts that I tried to make clear to you earlier and you make some highly questionable assumptions about unfulfilled desires. There is no sin in Taoism, therefore your claim that "real taoist masters" are well aware that committing sins generates karma also seems false to facts. Nothing you are stating appears to be consistent with any historical record of Taoism that I have ever encountered. If you feel that I am incorrect in this assessment please provide some reference other than your own opinions to back up these conclusions. I never received your PM regarding the last time you claimed you could provide evidence to support your position, so it would be nice if perhaps you could provide these references publicly.

 

 

 

Dear Viator,

 

Sorry. No contact with you. Your style of writing is still provocative ("You seem to continue to misunderstand the concepts that I tried to make clear to you earlier" this sentence implies that I am silly so I can not understand the concepts)

 

It seems you know Taoism better than Grand master of Mo-Pai and Quanzhen master Qiu Chuji. Congratulations.

 

Cat,

Where are you? I did not mention Viator's name and he is still offending me? Will you keep your silence and continue to give undercover support to Viator? You were very quick to issue a warning to me?

 

SereneBlue,

Viator is still offending me. I am curious about your reaction. Am I right mentioning the double standards or not? Could you please change my perception?

Edited October 15, 2012 by winniepooh_ank

[winniepooh_ank]

Your words, not mine.

 

You are taking things out of the context that I presented them and making claims that you do not seem to be able to back with any form of evidence. The claims form the foundation for an argument that is inconsistent with any form of Taoist philosophy I have ever encountered. I understand why you would not want to talk to me anymore, since I expect you to be able to actually support your arguments with facts. Unfortunately I do not operate enough in Wu Wei to simply observe this and move past it without saying anything. I suppose that is my own karma to work out.

 

Cat,

 

He is still offending me.

[shanlung]

 

 

Genghis Khan is the murderer of millions of people. He has served his nafs and also served Satan. (Nafs as in sufism) He has generated much much more karma than Mother Teresa. The famous Quanzhen sect Taoist master Qiu Chuji has visited Genghis Khan 1220-1221 A.D. and warned him that he has generated lots of karma by ordering death of so many people. (http://www1.chinacul...ntent_24919.htm)

 

 

 

History, especially written by the West for the West love to paint Genghis Khan as the Incarnate of Evil.

Millions died by his hand or ordered by him.

 

I am not here to defend Genghis as I do not think he need defending by an Idiot.

 

Let us look at another aspect of Genghis Khan. Let us look at the letter that he send to invite one of the 7 Taoist Masters, ChangChun to visit him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiu_Chuji

 

In above , it was stated that The famous old Taoist monk, Ch'ang-ch'un, had been invited to satisfy the interest of Genghis Khan in "the philosopher's stone" and the secret medicine of immortality.

 

As if Genghis invited ChangChun for self interest.

Let us see the translation of the letter written by Genghis Khan (and which still exist).

Would a leader who conquered countries that would have dwarfed what Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire combined be humble as the great Khan?

 

Extracted from http://depts.washing.../changchun.html

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

The text has been excerpted from E. Bretschneider's Mediæval Researches from Eastern Asiatic Sources (New York: Barnes & Noble, 1888), pp.37-108. Bretschneider's page numbers are included here in the format //[p.xx].

[Chinghis Khan's letter of invitation to Ch'ang ch'un]

//[p.37] Heaven has abandoned China owing to its haughtiness and extravagant luxury. But I, living in the northern wilderness, have not inordinate passions. I hate luxury and exercise moderation. I have only one coat and one food. I eat the same food and am dressed in the same tatters as my humble herdsmen. I consider the people my //[p.38] children, and take an interest in talented men as if they were my brothers. We always agree in our principles, and we are always united by mutual affection. At military exercises I am always in the front, and in time of battle am never behind. In the space of seven years I have succeeded in accomplishing a great work, and uniting the whole world in one empire. I have not myself dis- tinguished qualities.

But the government of the Kin is inconstant, and therefore Heaven assists me to obtain the throne (of the Kin). The Sung to the south, the Hui ho to the north, the Hia to the east, and the barbarians in the west, all together have acknowledged my supremacy. It seems to me that since the remote time of our shan yü such a vast empire has not been seen. But as my calling is high, the obligations incumbent on me are also heavy; and I fear that in my ruling there may be something wanting. To cross a river we make boats and rudders. Likewise we invite sage men, and choose out assistants for keeping the empire in good order. Since the time I came to the throne I have always taken to heart the ruling of my people; but I could not find worthy men to occupy the places of the three (kung) and the nine (k'ing). With respect to these circumstances I inquired, and heard that thou, master, hast penetrated the truth, and that thou walkest in the path of right. Deeply learned and much experienced, thou hast much explored the laws. Thy sanctity is become manifest. Thou hast conserved the rigorous rules of the ancient sages. Thou art endowed with the eminent talents of celebrated men. For a long time thou hast lived in the caverns of the rocks, and hast retired from //[p.39] the world; but to thee the people who have acquired sanctity repair, like clouds on the path of the immortals, in innumerable multitudes. I knew that after the war thou hadst continued to live in Shan tung, at the same place, and I was always thinking of thee. I know the stories of the returning from the river Wei in the same cart, and of the invitations in the reed hut three times repeated. But what shall I do? We are separated by mountains and plains of great extent, and I cannot meet thee. I can only descend from the throne and stand by the side. I have fasted and washed . I have ordered my adjutant, Liu Chung lu, to prepare an escort and a cart for thee. Do not be afraid of the thousand li. I implore thee to move thy sainted steps. Do not think of the extent of the sandy desert. Commiserate the people in the present situation of affairs, or have pity upon me, and communicate to me the means of preserving life. I shall serve thee myself. I hope that at least thou wilt leave me a trifle of thy wisdom. Say only one word to me and I shall be happy. In this letter I have briefly expressed my thoughts, and hope that thou wilt understand them. I hope also that thou, having penetrated the principles of the great tao, sympathisest with all that is right, and wilt not resist the wishes of the people.

Given on the 1st day of the 5th month (May 15),1219.

 

Idiotic Taoist

Edited October 15, 2012 by shanlung

[三江源]

Cat,

 

He is still offending me.

 

Winnie, put him on "ignore".

[winniepooh_ank]

History, especially written by the West for the West love to paint Genghis Khan as the Incarnate of Evil.

Millions died by his hand or ordered by him.

 

I am not here to defend Genghis as I do not think he need defending by an Idiot.

 

Let us look at another aspect of Genghis Khan. Let us look at the letter that he send to invite one of the 7 Taoist Masters, ChangChun to visit him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiu_Chuji

 

In above , it was stated that The famous old Taoist monk, Ch'ang-ch'un, had been invited to satisfy the interest of Genghis Khan in "the philosopher's stone" and the secret medicine of immortality.

 

As if Genghis invited ChangChun for self interest.

Let us see the translation of the letter written by Genghis Khan (and which still exist).

Would a leader who conquered countries that would have dwarfed what Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire combined be humble as the great Khan?

 

Extracted from http://depts.washing.../changchun.html

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

The text has been excerpted from E. Bretschneider's Mediæval Researches from Eastern Asiatic Sources (New York: Barnes & Noble, 1888), pp.37-108. Bretschneider's page numbers are included here in the format //[p.xx].

[Chinghis Khan's letter of invitation to Ch'ang ch'un]

//[p.37] Heaven has abandoned China owing to its haughtiness and extravagant luxury. But I, living in the northern wilderness, have not inordinate passions. I hate luxury and exercise moderation. I have only one coat and one food. I eat the same food and am dressed in the same tatters as my humble herdsmen. I consider the people my //[p.38] children, and take an interest in talented men as if they were my brothers. We always agree in our principles, and we are always united by mutual affection. At military exercises I am always in the front, and in time of battle am never behind. In the space of seven years I have succeeded in accomplishing a great work, and uniting the whole world in one empire. I have not myself dis- tinguished qualities.

But the government of the Kin is inconstant, and therefore Heaven assists me to obtain the throne (of the Kin). The Sung to the south, the Hui ho to the north, the Hia to the east, and the barbarians in the west, all together have acknowledged my supremacy. It seems to me that since the remote time of our shan yü such a vast empire has not been seen. But as my calling is high, the obligations incumbent on me are also heavy; and I fear that in my ruling there may be something wanting. To cross a river we make boats and rudders. Likewise we invite sage men, and choose out assistants for keeping the empire in good order. Since the time I came to the throne I have always taken to heart the ruling of my people; but I could not find worthy men to occupy the places of the three (kung) and the nine (k'ing). With respect to these circumstances I inquired, and heard that thou, master, hast penetrated the truth, and that thou walkest in the path of right. Deeply learned and much experienced, thou hast much explored the laws. Thy sanctity is become manifest. Thou hast conserved the rigorous rules of the ancient sages. Thou art endowed with the eminent talents of celebrated men. For a long time thou hast lived in the caverns of the rocks, and hast retired from //[p.39] the world; but to thee the people who have acquired sanctity repair, like clouds on the path of the immortals, in innumerable multitudes. I knew that after the war thou hadst continued to live in Shan tung, at the same place, and I was always thinking of thee. I know the stories of the returning from the river Wei in the same cart, and of the invitations in the reed hut three times repeated. But what shall I do? We are separated by mountains and plains of great extent, and I cannot meet thee. I can only descend from the throne and stand by the side. I have fasted and washed . I have ordered my adjutant, Liu Chung lu, to prepare an escort and a cart for thee. Do not be afraid of the thousand li. I implore thee to move thy sainted steps. Do not think of the extent of the sandy desert. Commiserate the people in the present situation of affairs, or have pity upon me, and communicate to me the means of preserving life. I shall serve thee myself. I hope that at least thou wilt leave me a trifle of thy wisdom. Say only one word to me and I shall be happy. In this letter I have briefly expressed my thoughts, and hope that thou wilt understand them. I hope also that thou, having penetrated the principles of the great tao, sympathisest with all that is right, and wilt not resist the wishes of the people.

Given on the 1st day of the 5th month (May 15),1219.

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

 

Dear Shanlung,

 

Thank you very much for your post. Actually, I could not find the notes of the speech between Genghis Khan and Qiu Chuji.

I have read it previously in the website http://www.qiuchuji.org/index-eng.php However, The main page is active but

http://www.qiuchuji.org/tale-eng.php address doe not work. So I could not copy the dialogue between the two. If you are a Chinese speaker, may be you may get it from the Chinese web site http://www.qiuchuji.org

 

For this reason, I have written from my memory. I am sorry if I made any mistakes. But as far as I remember, Qiu Chuji has really warned Genghis Khan about his karma.

 

I am Turkish, living in Turkey. Genghis Khan is also a part of our history since the initial tribes forming his state were Mongol and Turkic. However, Genghis Khan's armies have really performed the largest massacre and responsible of civilian deaths. In 1220, world population was much less than World War II time population. It is difficult to estimate but as a percentage, he may be responsible for the death of higher percentage of world population compared to Adolf Hitler. Especially, western Central Asia including the cities of famous silk road were massacred completely by his armies. Even his sons and grandsons continued this tradition and in Anatolia where modern Turkey stands, they did really big massacres killing muslim Turks. Finally, in 1256 A.D. Mongol armies killed the people of Baghdad and burned famous Baghdad library which is a crime against human culture.

 

Best Regards,

[Stosh]

_{Yes ,He seems to be challenging your argument , and that might offend you ,}

_{but his words do not appear to be crossing any line ,}

_{so the offense is really just yours.}

_{First person to whine,}

_{is not always the person who is right.}

_{There is, and always will be contention on such a forum.}

_{Make a better argument.}

_Stosh

[winniepooh_ank]

Winnie, put him on "ignore".

 

Cat,

Previously after Viator's report you have posted to me:

winniepooh_ank, in response to complaints about your posting here: please now desist from this path of seeking to perpetuate a discussion with a member who has clearly chosen to leave discussion with you.

Personal provocation from you and lack of civility has been logged in the moderators area. Continuing in such a mode will result in your account being suspended.

Keep it friendly.

 

on behalf of mod team.

 

And now, you are not posting anything against Viator although I am reporting him to you. May I learn the reason of this double standard?