Approval seeking and Wu wei

[三江源]

It's a spiritual excercise for you to figure it out. Meditate on it.

 

 

Alternatively, read the forum rules. The rocket science of this iz not exizt.

[winniepooh_ank]

_{Yes ,He seems to be challenging your argument , and that might offend you ,}

_{but his words do not appear to be crossing any line ,}

_{so the offense is really just yours.}

_{First person to whine,}

_{is not always the person who is right.}

_{There is, and always will be contention on such a forum.}

_{Make a better argument.}

_Stosh

 

Stosh,

 

Then tell me which line I crossed? You are also hostile to me anyway, answer me

[winniepooh_ank]

Cat,

 

There is no meaning to stay on this forum. You are defending Viator because

 

a) He is Westerner, I am not

He is Taoist (????), I am not

c) His English is better than mine

d) All of above

 

It is apparently (d)

 

SereneBlue,

 

Do not ever make any arguments about my perception of double standards.

Edited October 15, 2012 by winniepooh_ank

[三江源]

Cat,

 

There is no meaning to stay on this forum. You are defending Viator because

 

a) He is Westerner, I am not

He is Taoist (????), I am not

c) His English is better than mine

d) All of above

 

It is apparently (d)

 

SereneBlue,

 

Do not ever make any arguments about my perception of double standards.

 

 

Hey Winnie. I been to Turkey. Love the food.

[winniepooh_ank]

Hey Winnie. I been to Turkey. Love the food.

 

Since you love Turkish food, you may do double standards and be unjust? Interesting affect

Edited October 15, 2012 by winniepooh_ank

[三江源]

Enjoy the thread, winnie, igore those that seem unprofitable for you personally, and drop the macho posturing, its antagonistic, and not in a good way. SIMPLES>

 

TOO BOSSY =

Stosh,

 

Then tell me which line I crossed? You are also hostile to me anyway, answer me

 

 

to Viator, earlier in the thread you offered this:

Oh really? I am so scared? Do you have honour? Be a man to defend your own word

 

[winniepooh_ank]

Enjoy the thread, winnie, igore those that seem unprofitable for you personally, and drop the macho posturing, its antagonistic, and not in a good way. SIMPLES>

 

TOO BOSSY =

 

Cat,

 

The problem is not ignoring Stosh and Viator. The problem is you. You are incredibly unfair.

[Apech]

Cat,

 

The problem is not ignoring Stosh and Viator. The problem is you. You are incredibly unfair.

 

Hi,

 

This is not a thread I would normally read but I am duty bound as a moderator to do so. So having trawled through the last few pages of pure drek (is that how you spell it?) here I am.

 

The question as to whether you feel offended by someone else's posts is NOT a moderation issue. The test is did the other person attack you (i.e. you the person and not the ideas you expressed) with insulting language.

 

Cat and SB do what they do as part of the mod team and we are one on this. So drop it. You have been advised to use the ignore function ... that is up to you of course.

 

Hijacking/trolling a thread is a mod issue. If you divert a thread away from the main or subsidiary topics into personalised issues we will take action. Keep this in mind.

 

A.

[Stosh]

Dude Im not hostile to you either!

You are reading into the text more negativity than is being offered.

Stosh

 

What would Pooh say ?

Probably , Oh bother. and then he would move on to cottleston pie.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Stosh

[shanlung]

Dear Shanlung,

 

Thank you very much for your post. Actually, I could not find the notes of the speech between Genghis Khan and Qiu Chuji.

I have read it previously in the website http://www.qiuchuji.org/index-eng.php However, The main page is active but

http://www.qiuchuji.org/tale-eng.php address doe not work. So I could not copy the dialogue between the two. If you are a Chinese speaker, may be you may get it from the Chinese web site http://www.qiuchuji.org

 

For this reason, I have written from my memory. I am sorry if I made any mistakes. But as far as I remember, Qiu Chuji has really warned Genghis Khan about his karma.

 

I am Turkish, living in Turkey. Genghis Khan is also a part of our history since the initial tribes forming his state were Mongol and Turkic. However, Genghis Khan's armies have really performed the largest massacre and responsible of civilian deaths. In 1220, world population was much less than World War II time population. It is difficult to estimate but as a percentage, he may be responsible for the death of higher percentage of world population compared to Adolf Hitler. Especially, western Central Asia including the cities of famous silk road were massacred completely by his armies. Even his sons and grandsons continued this tradition and in Anatolia where modern Turkey stands, they did really big massacres killing muslim Turks. Finally, in 1256 A.D. Mongol armies killed the people of Baghdad and burned famous Baghdad library which is a crime against human culture.

 

Best Regards,

 

Genghis Khan was even more a greater part of history of China then Turkey/Russia/Middle Asia.

He probably reduced percentage wise, even more of my ancestors then he did yours. Strangely you still hold him more to account that I would of him.

 

I just have to remember those times were times of carnage regardless of who was the emperor or the khan.

 

During the Warring States, perhaps 15 or 20% of the population was left. I think Genghis Khan left a larger percentage alive.

 

Let us recall the precursor to the carnage in Baghdad and the Caliph empire. Genghis send his envoys requesting for expanded trade routes and links. The Caliph send back those heads of the envoys with their head dress nailed to the skulls with one live envoy to lead that return.

 

Genghis asked for the perpertuator to be punished and was laughed at instead. After all, the Islamic Caliph Empire was the largest empire by far and Mongols were unheard of by them.

 

He had to come to them and told them he was the punishment send by Allah and perhaps he was.

 

He fought with army perhaps a tenth the size of his enemies. All cities that surrended to him were spared. Any city that resisted him were slaughtered. He was not cruel for the sake of cruelty unlike the image painted of him.

 

As said, the letter he wrote to ChangChun came from a very powerful leader of man, and showed a side of Genghis Khan not known or even acknowledged. How can the world acknowledge that? Folks will get bewildered that Genghis is not the black hearted monster that they want to paint him as.

 

What ChangChun said to him was in line with the teachings of Taoism, and he would have said that to me and to you, that we all should be warned of karmic consequences.

 

Idiot on the Path

[XieJia]

Someone already pointed to you that your statement was insulting to them... of course getting into the process of seeing if in fact it is or it is not insulting is a whole different issue. Evidently to me you think it is not and are prepared to fight for it and evidently to me somebody else thinks it is and they are prepared to fight for it... whether it is or not right now is quite beside the point the point is why fight over it and get the approval respect we seek... I believe you that it was never your intention to offend ... that is something that happened... it has happened to me quite a bit... I ask a question or make a comment and people feel quite bad ... personally I have no ego trip about being right or wrong what I want to know is the truth... this to some is strange, they want to be right about what they hold even if it means believing what is not. I am getting sidetracked.

 

I said you are avoiding the issue of recognizing that someone felt offended by what you say because in your responses you are defending the position 'but I did nothing wrong' 'I did not insult no-one with my statements'. Notice that I am not getting into the validity of your statement right now. I think that you will agree that the statement you made is an absolute claim which may or may not be valid (though you believe to be valid).

 

Dear Et,

 

I have spend time reading the thread, trying to find the person who said my comment was insulting.

Perhaps to my own error or blindness, I failed to locate the post.

As a guide on the way and the person who pointed out.

Would you kindly tell me whom I offend and to which post that person said.

You can do it here or drop me a pm, that is up to you.

But I do owe the person an apology if he/she have said so,

however perhaps again to my own blindness or inability to see the truth beyond what's in my mind; I can't see how or why.

 

If you were to re-read my comments, I am also not entirely sure whether my comment is an 'absolute claims'; I see it more as a personal dialogue or self-reflection on how I sometimes can do silly things.

 

If you would be so kind, please do tell me. I will appreciate your response.

[XieJia]

Going back to the issue at hand.

 

There are many similarities that one could draw when approaching "Karma" from the Western thinking of "Sins".

 

I don't really understand or know "Sins" well so I can't really comment whether they are the same or not.

It is possible that it is inter-related.

 

However the application of Karma is quite wide.

 

Take an example of a country road with two paths.

You know that the two leads to the same point that you would like to go.

One is the paved main road which other people normally used to get to the destination.

The other is the a small road along the stream.

In choosing either of the paths, you have already cultivate a certain kind of "Karma".

This maybe neutral, fruitful or unfruitful.

 

I don't know much about the concept sins. From googling, I take it as "violating the will of God".

My deduction could be wrong but I will tend to associate Sins with a more of a negative deeds.

And that the consequence is hence punishment by God.

 

Buddhist's concept of "Karma" is closely linked to the concept of "Self"; this is either generated through

own Greed, Anger or/and Ignorances. The seeds and the fruits of the person's karma can be said to be

Self-Sowed and Self-Reap. There are also the desire to do good things, this generates good Karma.

[shanlung]

Wu Wei is neither non-action nor effortless action. Wu Wei is the action that does not create karma (or kefaret in Islam)

 

How is it possible? For instance, a Samurai killing his enemy and not creating karma?

 

I may explain this from an anecdote from history of Islam.

 

Hazrat Ali was in a war and he made his opponent fall down. Before he can kill his opponent, the man spit on Hazrat Ali's face. Then, Hazrat Ali withdrew his sword and did not kill the man. The man asked the reason for not being killed. "I was fighting against you for a just cause, we are in a war and I am fighting for the will of Allah. But when you spit on my face, I got angry, I can not kill you for my self (nafs), I am not a murderer" was his reply. This is Wu Wei

 

winniepooh_ank,

 

I was in the Middle East for many years, in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and later in the Sultanate of Oman.

I did have mullahs that liked to talk to me. And Fathers, Buddhist and Taoist priests and monks before.

 

I like to think I truly respect all beliefs as who am I to know the Way?

 

I have wrote that here in this thread earlier what I feel of Wuwei. I appreciate if you can find the time to read what I have to say of Wuwei http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html

 

In my mind at least, wuwei is a state of mind/thought/heart-mind. Nothing karmically connected with wuwei.

 

And in another thread, I tried to set out the differences, or rather what I think the difference between Taoism and God.

Not to offend anyone. I do not think you will be offended by what I wrote

Tao ke Tao, and where is God

 

http://thetaobums.co...d-where-is-god/

 

The Idiotic Taoist

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Marblehead]

Hi Mods,

 

Even though I have been reading all the posts to this thread I would like to point out that I have not spoke to any of the posts recently. I have been being nice.

 

The discussions got a little adrift of the topic but then this happens frequently. I appreciate that Y'all are responding to complaints in an unbiased manner. No rules were broken as far as I can tell so no action need be taken except for perhaps a courtesy PM to anyone feeling abused or offended.

 

And just for the thread's sake, approval seeking is counter to the concept of wu wei and will add the point that sin and karma are not Philosophical Taoist concepts.

 

Peace out Y'all!

[winniepooh_ank]

History, especially written by the West for the West love to paint Genghis Khan as the Incarnate of Evil.

Millions died by his hand or ordered by him.

 

I am not here to defend Genghis as I do not think he need defending by an Idiot.

 

Let us look at another aspect of Genghis Khan. Let us look at the letter that he send to invite one of the 7 Taoist Masters, ChangChun to visit him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qiu_Chuji

 

In above , it was stated that The famous old Taoist monk, Ch'ang-ch'un, had been invited to satisfy the interest of Genghis Khan in "the philosopher's stone" and the secret medicine of immortality.

 

As if Genghis invited ChangChun for self interest.

Let us see the translation of the letter written by Genghis Khan (and which still exist).

Would a leader who conquered countries that would have dwarfed what Alexander the Great and the Roman Empire combined be humble as the great Khan?

 

Extracted from http://depts.washing.../changchun.html

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

The text has been excerpted from E. Bretschneider's Mediæval Researches from Eastern Asiatic Sources (New York: Barnes & Noble, 1888), pp.37-108. Bretschneider's page numbers are included here in the format //[p.xx].

[Chinghis Khan's letter of invitation to Ch'ang ch'un]

//[p.37] Heaven has abandoned China owing to its haughtiness and extravagant luxury. But I, living in the northern wilderness, have not inordinate passions. I hate luxury and exercise moderation. I have only one coat and one food. I eat the same food and am dressed in the same tatters as my humble herdsmen. I consider the people my //[p.38] children, and take an interest in talented men as if they were my brothers. We always agree in our principles, and we are always united by mutual affection. At military exercises I am always in the front, and in time of battle am never behind. In the space of seven years I have succeeded in accomplishing a great work, and uniting the whole world in one empire. I have not myself dis- tinguished qualities.

But the government of the Kin is inconstant, and therefore Heaven assists me to obtain the throne (of the Kin). The Sung to the south, the Hui ho to the north, the Hia to the east, and the barbarians in the west, all together have acknowledged my supremacy. It seems to me that since the remote time of our shan yü such a vast empire has not been seen. But as my calling is high, the obligations incumbent on me are also heavy; and I fear that in my ruling there may be something wanting. To cross a river we make boats and rudders. Likewise we invite sage men, and choose out assistants for keeping the empire in good order. Since the time I came to the throne I have always taken to heart the ruling of my people; but I could not find worthy men to occupy the places of the three (kung) and the nine (k'ing). With respect to these circumstances I inquired, and heard that thou, master, hast penetrated the truth, and that thou walkest in the path of right. Deeply learned and much experienced, thou hast much explored the laws. Thy sanctity is become manifest. Thou hast conserved the rigorous rules of the ancient sages. Thou art endowed with the eminent talents of celebrated men. For a long time thou hast lived in the caverns of the rocks, and hast retired from //[p.39] the world; but to thee the people who have acquired sanctity repair, like clouds on the path of the immortals, in innumerable multitudes. I knew that after the war thou hadst continued to live in Shan tung, at the same place, and I was always thinking of thee. I know the stories of the returning from the river Wei in the same cart, and of the invitations in the reed hut three times repeated. But what shall I do? We are separated by mountains and plains of great extent, and I cannot meet thee. I can only descend from the throne and stand by the side. I have fasted and washed . I have ordered my adjutant, Liu Chung lu, to prepare an escort and a cart for thee. Do not be afraid of the thousand li. I implore thee to move thy sainted steps. Do not think of the extent of the sandy desert. Commiserate the people in the present situation of affairs, or have pity upon me, and communicate to me the means of preserving life. I shall serve thee myself. I hope that at least thou wilt leave me a trifle of thy wisdom. Say only one word to me and I shall be happy. In this letter I have briefly expressed my thoughts, and hope that thou wilt understand them. I hope also that thou, having penetrated the principles of the great tao, sympathisest with all that is right, and wilt not resist the wishes of the people.

Given on the 1st day of the 5th month (May 15),1219.

 

Idiotic Taoist

 

 

Thank you Shanlung,

 

Please allow me to correct one point. The person you mentioned is not the Haliph in Baghdad but rather was Ala ad-Din Muhammad II, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_II_of_Khwarezm). He was the ruler of Khwarazmian dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarezmid_Empire). Details of the campaign can be read: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Khwarezmia). They were located todays Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Iran. They were muslim and Turkish. They were neighbours of Mongols and they of course knew their power.

 

The raid on Baghdad was done by Hulagu Khan grandson of Genghis Khan, in 1258. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258))

[Marblehead]

I agree that Karma itself is not a Taoist concept, but this speech by Alan Watts captures the essence of the idea that I was trying to get at when talking about it. While Karma itself is not a Taoist concept, Wu Wei does hold some relation to the concept of Karma. The "video" is about half an hour long and is really just audio from one of Watts' many talks.

Thanks for the link. I don't listen to or read Watts. Just my thing and I will not relate why as I do not wish to influence anyone else's questions as to whether or not to read him.

 

Hehehe. I'm not even going to make comment about your understanding that there is a link between wu wei and karma because if one holds to the concept of cause and effect karma need not even be considered when discussing Taoist philosophy.

 

Yes, I know, Buddhists love to talk about karma. That's their thing.

[GrandmasterP]

Wu Wei 'causal'?

Some mistake surely.

[Marblehead]

Wu Wei 'causal'?

Some mistake surely.

No. I don't make mistakes. Hehehe.

 

Let's not confuse wu wei with karma or cause and effect. Different concepts. You know that.

[XieJia]

Marble, I am trying to find your old post somewhere.

I remembered you went through this before and you once gave a nice explanation.

 

One thing is that the Buddha was born in India.

Where the idea of Karma is very prominent.

Buddha teaches people to be free of this "Karma".

We Buddhists are quite bounded to talk about Karma.

 

You hardcore Daoists and Zen people out there are lucky,

you are not bound to do so.

[Stosh]

Lots of similarity in them thar things though.

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Marble, I am trying to find your old post somewhere.

I remembered you went through this before and you once gave a nice explanation.

 

One thing is that the Buddha was born in India.

Where the idea of Karma is very prominent.

Buddha teaches people to be free of this "Karma".

We Buddhists are quite bounded to talk about Karma.

 

You hardcore Daoists and Zen people out there are lucky,

you are not bound to do so.

I forget what I said so I will just respond to this post.

 

Yes, Buddhists have "karma" as one of the most important concepts in their belief system. I have no problem with this, of course. But to attach the concept to Taoism is, I believe, an error.

 

However, if we were to get into a deep and lengthy discussion there would be almost total agreement between the belief in karma and the belief in cause and effect. Buddhism, in general, is not removed from the physical, real world. It plays an important part in the belief system. And so it does with Taoism.

 

But I will venture to say that cause and effect is just as important to a Philosophical Taoist as is karma to a Buddhist. It is just that we are not told to get rid of stuff but rather to lessen our load.

[Marblehead]

I don't think Watts is the end all be all authority on Taoism (or Buddhism/Hindu/etc), he just happened to be an influence along the way for me. I am interested in your take on Wu Wei though. I'm not easily offended; if you think I am way off base here I'd really enjoy your view of the matter.

I will not talk negatively about Watts because he has helped countless people find themselves along their path of life. He has done good.

 

I do think that he mixes his Buddhism with his Taoism though, although there is really nothing 'wrong' with that because all Zen people do the same thing. (Whatever helps you through your life.)

 

But then, when we are talking about a Taoist concept, wu wei, we should try to understand that we are talking Taoist philosophy, not Buddhist or Christian philosophy.

 

No, you are not way off base. You are on your path. But, sure, we can discuss it (wu wei) again if you wish. I just didn't want to butt in while Y'all were having such a fun discussion.

[winniepooh_ank]

Dude Im not hostile to you either!

You are reading into the text more negativity than is being offered.

Stosh

 

What would Pooh say ?

Probably , Oh bother. and then he would move on to cottleston pie.

 

You are not hostile. You are just controlled by Satan. No big deal.

[Marblehead]

Lots of similarity in them thar things though.

Stosh

Ain't no doubt about it.