Approval seeking and Wu wei

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[shanlung]

I know a thread might have life of its own and different from the original intent.

 

Being a Taoist, I go with the flow, even if it flows 4 ways or more.

Maybe I should hive off to a new thread, just a fleeting thought of an Idiot, but I decide to stay on in this thread.

 

On the subject of Genghis Khan. To show how wrong most folks are in thinking bad of him

 

Partial extract from http://www.mongolia-...ghis-khan2.html

 

Human rights and freedoms

 

Genghis Khan did not grant his people the basic human rights and freedoms that we Americans enjoy and Mongolians prize so highly. But he did allow a certain amount of freedom of speech or he never would have figured out who the Wise Men were!

 

He also championed freedom of religion. Although he himself practiced shamanism, he believed that the other religions of the region–Nestorian Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, and Islam–had merit and should be tolerated. He declared that all religions should be respected and that none should be elevated above the others.23

 

Pastoral nomadism naturally encourages personal freedom. Even in Manchu times, serfs–nomads tied to a prince (a direct descendant of Genghis Khan) or to a noble–were free once they left the compound of their overlord. Although they reported to their overlord several times a year, they were free to do as they pleased in the countryside.

 

Freedom of religion is the fourth pillar of democracy, a personal freedom that is also a way of respecting differences. A democracy is based on equality of all citizens whether or not they are different from the majority. In fact, pluralism–the acceptance of differences and the ability to allow citizens of all groups to participate in government–is a hallmark of democracy.24 Therefore Genghis Khan’s insistence on religious tolerance is not only a mark of respect for human rights and freedoms but it is also a sign of equality among citizens.

 

Genghis Khan, Father of Mongolian Democracy

by Paula L.W. Sabloff

 

 

 

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

 

 

And for scholars intent on recorded conversations between Genghis Khan and ChangChung

 

玄风庆会录

 

 

元侍臣(shichen)昭武大将军尚书礼部侍郎移刺楚才奉敕编录。

 

钦奉皇帝圣议，宣请高道长春真人，岁在巳卯正元后一日，敕朝官刘仲禄斋诏寻访，直至东莱，适符圣意礼迎仙驭，不辞远远而来。逮乎壬午之冬十月既望，皇帝畋于西域雪山之阳，是夕御行在，设庭燎虚前席延长春真人，以问长生之道。真人曰：

 

夫 道，生天育地，日月星辰、鬼神人物皆从道生。人止知天大，不知道之大也。余生平弃亲出家，唯学此耳。道生天地开辟而生人焉。人之始生也，神光自照，行步如 飞。地生菌自有滋味，不假炊爨，人皆食之，此时尚未火食，其菌皆香，且鼻嗅其香，口嗜其味，渐致身重，神光寻灭，以爱欲之深故也。学道之人，以此之故，世 人爱处不爱，世人住处不住，去声色以清静为娱，屏滋味以恬淡为美，但有执著，不明道德也。眼见乎色，耳听乎声，口嗜乎味，性逐乎情，则散其气。譬如气鞠气 实则健，气散则否。人以气为主，逐物动念则元气散，若气鞠之气散耳。天生二物曰动植，草木之类为植，植而无识，雨露霑濡因得生荣；人物之属为动，动而有 情，无衣无食何以卒岁？必当经营耳。旦夕云为，身口为累故也。夫男阳也，属火；女阴也，属水，唯阴能消阳，水能克火，故学道之人首戒乎色。夫经营衣食则劳 乎思虑，虽散其气而散少；贪婪色欲则耗乎精神，亦散其气，而散之多。道产二仪，轻清者为天，天阳也，属火；重浊者为地，地阴也，属水；人居其中，负阴而抱 阳。故学道之人，知修炼之术，去奢屏欲，固精守神，唯炼乎阳，是致阴消而阳全，则升乎天而为仙，如火之炎上也。其愚迷之徒以酒为浆，以妄为常，恣其情，逐 其欲，耗其精，损其神，是致阳衰而阴盛，则沉于地为鬼，如水之流下也。夫学修真者，如转石上乎高山，愈高愈难，跬步颠沛，前功俱废，以其难为也，举世莫之 为也；背道逐欲者，如掷石下乎峻坡，愈卑而愈易，斯须陨坠一去无回，以其易为也。故举世从之莫或悟也。余前所谓修炼之道，皆常人之事耳。天子之说又异于 是，陛下本天人耳，皇天眷命，假手我家，除残去暴，为元元父母，恭行天罚，如代大匠斵，克艰克难，功成限毕，即升天复位。在世之间，切宜减声色，省耆欲， 得圣体康宁，睿筭遐远耳。庶人一妻尚且损身，况乎天子多畜嫔御宁不深损？陛下宫姬满座，前闻刘仲禄中都等拣选处女以备后宫，窃闻道经云：「不见可欲，使心 不乱」，既见之，戒之则难，愿留意焉。人认身为己，此乃假物，从父母而得之者；神为真己，从道中而得之者，能思虑寤寐者是也。行善进道则升天，为之仙；作 恶背道则入地，为之鬼。夫道产众生，如金为众器，销其像，则返成乎金；人行乎善，则返乎道。人间声色衣食，人见以为娱乐，此非真乐，本为苦耳。世人以妄为 真，以苦为乐，不亦悲哉！殊不知，上天至乐乃真乐耳。余侪以学道之故，弃父母而栖巖穴。同时学道四人：曰丘、曰刘、曰谭、曰马。彼三人功满道成，今已升 化，余辛苦之限未终，日一食一味一盂，恬然自适以待乎时。其富者、贵者济民拯世、积行累功，更为异耳。但能积善行道，胡患不能为仙乎？中国承平日久，上天 屡降经教，劝人为善，大河之北，西川江左悉有之。东汉时干吉受太平经一百五十卷，皆修真治国之方。中国道人诵之、行之，可获福成道。又恒帝永寿元年正月七 日，太上降蜀临邛授天师张道陵南斗北斗经及二十四阶法箓诸经籍千余卷，晋王纂遇太上道君法驾乘空赐经数十卷。元魏时，天师寇谦之居嵩山于太上等处受道经六 十余卷，皆治心修道、祈福禳灾、扫除魑魅、拯疾疫之术，其余经教不可尽言。降经之意，欲使古今帝王臣民皆令行善。经旨太多，请举其要。天地之生人为贵，是 故人身难得如麟之角，万物纷然，如牛之毛。既获难得之身，宜趣修真之路，作善修福，渐臻妙道。上至帝王，降及民庶，尊卑虽异，性命各同耳。帝王悉天人谪降 人间，若行善修福，则升天之时，位逾前职；不行善修福，则反是。天人有功微行薄者，再令下世修福济民，方得高位。昔轩辕氏天命降世，一世为民，再世为臣， 三世为君，济世安民，累功积德，数尽升天而位尊于昔。陛下修行之法无他，当外修阴德，内固精神耳。恤民保众，使天下怀安，则为外行；省欲保神，为乎内行。 人以饮食为本，其清者为之精气，浊者为之便溺。贪欲好色，则丧精耗气，乃成衰惫。陛下宜加珍啬，一宵一为已为深损，而况恣欲者乎？虽不能全戒，但能节欲， 则几于道矣。夫神为子，气为母，气经目为泪，经鼻为脓，经舌为津，经外为汗，经内为血，经骨为髓，经肾为精。气全则生，气亡则死，气盛则壮，气衰则老。常 使气不散，则如子之有母；气散则如子丧父母，何恃何怙？夫神气同体，精髓一源，陛下试一月静寝，必觉精神清爽、筋骨强健。古人云：「服药千朝，不如独臥一 宵。」药为草，精为髓，去髓添草，有何益哉？譬如囊中贮之金，旋去金而添铁，久之金尽，囊虽满，空遗铁耳，服药之理夫何异乎？古人以继嗣之故娶妇而立家， 先圣周公、孔子、孟子各有子，孔子四十而不惑，孟子四十不动心。人生四十已上，气血已衰，故戒之在色也。陛下圣子神孙，枝蔓多广，宜保养戒欲为自计耳。昔 宋上皇本天人也，有神仙林灵素者，挈之神游上天入所居宫题其额曰：神霄不饥不渴、不寒不暑、逍遥无事、快乐自在，欲久居之无复往人间之意，林灵素劝之曰： 陛下天命人世，有天子功限未毕，岂得居此？遂下人间，自后女真国兴，太祖皇帝之将娄失虏，上皇北归，久而老终于上京。由是知，上天之乐何啻万倍人间！又知 因缘未终，岂能遽然而归也？余昔年出家，同道四人，彼三子先已升化，如蝉蜕然，委此凡骨而去，能化身千百无不可者。余辛苦万端未能去世，亦因缘之故也。夫 人之未生，在乎道中，不寒不暑，不饥不渴，心无所思，真为快乐；既生而受形，眼观乎色，耳听乎声，舌了乎味，意虑乎事，万事生矣。古人以心意莫能御也，故 喻心为猿，意为马，其难制可知也。古人有言曰：「易伏猛兽，难降寸心。」乃成道升天之捷径耳。道人修真炼心，一物不思量，如太虚止水水之风息也，静而清， 万物照之灿然悉见，水之风来也动而浊，曷能鉴万物哉！本来真性，静如止水，眼见乎色，耳悦乎声，舌嗜乎味，意著乎事，此数者续续而叠举，若飘风之鼓浪也。 道人治心之初甚难，岁久功深，损之又损，至于无为。道人一身耳，治心犹难，矧夫天子富有四海，日揽万机，治心岂易哉？但能节色欲，减思虑，亦获天祐，况全 戒者邪？昔轩辕皇帝造弧矢、创兵革以威天下，功成之际，请教于仙人广成子以问治身之道，广成子曰：汝无使思虑营营一言足矣。余谓修身之道，贵乎中和，太怒 则伤乎身，太喜则伤乎神，太思虑则伤乎气，此三者于道甚损，宜戒之也。陛下既知神为真己，身是幻躯，凡见色起心，当自思身假神真，自能止念也。人生寿命难 得，且如鸟兽岁岁产子，旋踵夭亡，壮老者鲜，婴童亦如之。是故，二十、三十为之下寿，四十、五十为之中寿，六十、七十为之上寿。陛下春秋已入上寿之期，宜 修德保身以介眉寿。出家学道人恶衣恶食，不积财，恐害身损福故也。在家修道之人，饮食居处珍玩货财亦当依分，不宜过差也。四海之外，普天之下所有国土不啻 亿兆，奇珍异宝比比出之，皆不如中原，天垂经教，治国治身之术为之大备，屡有奇人成道升天耳。山东河北，天下美地，多出良禾美蔬，鱼盐丝玺以给四方之用。 自古得之者为大国，所以历代有国家者唯争此地耳。今已为民有兵火相继，流散未集，宜差知彼中子细事务者能干官规措勾当，与免三年税赋，使军国足丝帛之用， 黔黎获苏息之安，一举而两得之兹，亦安民祈福之一端耳，自天祐之吉，无不利也。余万里之外，一召不远而来，修身养命之方既已先言，治国保民之术何为惜口？ 余前所谓安集山东、河北之事，如差清干官前去依上措画，必当天心；苟授以非才，不徒无益，反为害也。初金国之得天下，以创起东土中原人情尚未谙悉，封刘豫 于东平经略八年，然后取之，此亦开创良策也，愿加意焉。修身养命要妙之道传之尽矣，其治国保民之术微陈，梗概其用之舍之在宸衷之断耳。昔金国世宗皇帝即位 之十年，色欲过节，不胜衰惫，每朝会二人掖行之，自是博访高道，求保养之方，亦尝请余问修真之道，余如前说，自后身体康强，行步如故，凡在位三十年升遐。 余生平学道，心以无思无虑，梦中天意若曰：功行未满，当待时升化耳。幻身假物若逆旅，蜕居耳，何足恋也！真身飞升，可化千百，无施不可，上天千岁或万万， 遇有事奉天命降世投胎就舍而已。

 

传道毕，上谕之曰：

 

谆谆道诲，敬闻命矣，斯皆难行之事，然则敢不遵？依仙命勤而行之。传道之语已，命近臣录之简册，朕将亲览。其有玄旨未明者，续当请益焉。

 

玄风庆会录终

 

 

Idiot on the Path

[Marblehead]

arguably gives some the reasons to act much better, that's the point of having them!

Damn! I have to agree with ET.

 

Edit to add:

 

But that's only because they can't wu wei and be nice naturally. (This thought goes much deeper than the simple words I just used. I know, some would argue with me. That's okay.)

Edited October 16, 2012 by Marblehead

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[XieJia]

Can Wuwei be externally recognized?

 

I might not be well-informed about the subject,

I think Wu-wei is quite a personal thing, only the person will know about each own.

[Stosh]

Since there are multiple reasons for religions ,

there are multiple aspects to consider

when deciding on the "virtue" of having one

Folks tend to 'cherry-pick' from the associated teachings

and thereby the practice diverges from them

the meaning of wu wei , is a perfect example

Under a religious banner many folks find social cohesion

which may or may not revolve around being nice to other groups

but has value to the individuals participating.

Also folks may find meaning in their lives, which again,

doesnt mean they will be socially nicer , but may make them happier

Its a mixed bag of benefits

The same irony of the shift from pacifism of Jesus, to the Crusades,

and-or then to the Amish, etc Holds for Tao as well in my opinion,

Starting with a unity , dividing into , yin and yang which were complimentary

and equal , to a preference for Yin definition of virtue ( which is at odds with harmonic balance)

Is as obvious as starting with Wei wu wei ,and ending up with just Wu wei.

 

Ultimately religious practice takes on the preferences and biases of a people ,

and standardizes it,more so ,than IT molds the people to the original standard.

 

Stosh

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stosh

Edited October 16, 2012 by Stosh

[XieJia]

Ultimately religious practice takes on the preferences and biases of a people ,

and standardizes it,more so ,than IT molds the people to the original standard.

 

agreed,

religions wouldn't have exist without people.

Even on a personal experience, people tend to fix concepts/signs round their bases.

however i think there are differences in what is mentioned as "practices".

such it's not a common occurrence to see people creating new forms in qigon, taiji or yoga.

Similar views could be taken on meditations, I think these methods of "doing" are less likely prone

to alteration from biases.

[et-thoughts]

.

Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

agreed,

religions wouldn't have exist without people.

Even on a personal experience, people tend to fix concepts/signs round their bases.

however i think there are differences in what is mentioned as "practices".

such it's not a common occurrence to see people creating new forms in qigon, taiji or yoga.

Similar views could be taken on meditations, I think these methods of "doing" are less likely prone

to alteration from biases.

 

I wouldnt know other than speculatively , I mean that these biases play in over periods of time

and over time do they become the new standard.

I wouldnt be surprised at all if meditative techniques were an exception to the point, but there

are still trends that may vary over time , such as zazen , hanging around in caves ,

meditating on compassion , or meditating without focus.

I figure others like yourself or Chidragon or Dawei or anamatva etc would have more insight on it

( and the collected comparisons-variations might make a neat thread of its own!)

 

By the way , cool avatar!

Stosh

Edited October 16, 2012 by Stosh

[XieJia]

I wouldnt know other than speculatively , I mean that these biases play in over periods of time

and over time do they become the new standard.

By the way , cool avatar!

Stosh

 

Thank you Stosh;

indeed historically what you said is true.

 

Wish you a good week