Approval seeking and Wu wei

[winniepooh_ank]

winniepooh_ank,

 

I was in the Middle East for many years, in Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and later in the Sultanate of Oman.

I did have mullahs that liked to talk to me. And Fathers, Buddhist and Taoist priests and monks before.

 

I like to think I truly respect all beliefs as who am I to know the Way?

 

I have wrote that here in this thread earlier what I feel of Wuwei. I appreciate if you can find the time to read what I have to say of Wuwei http://www.shanlung.com/oldwuwei.html

 

In my mind at least, wuwei is a state of mind/thought/heart-mind. Nothing karmically connected with wuwei.

 

And in another thread, I tried to set out the differences, or rather what I think the difference between Taoism and God.

Not to offend anyone. I do not think you will be offended by what I wrote

Tao ke Tao, and where is God

 

http://thetaobums.co...d-where-is-god/

 

The Idiotic Taoist

 

hank you Shanlung,

 

I have read your post about wu-wei in your blog. Wonderful post. While reading it, I remembered Koichi Tohei, who died last year. He was 10th dan Aikido master, emphasizing the importance of Dan Tian, which he called One Point. I love his books. I did not practice any martial art, but I would like to practice Aikido. Of course, taijiquan is much more developed inner martial art. It takes years of practice to master it.

 

Best Regards,

[winniepooh_ank]

Enjoy the thread, winnie, igore those that seem unprofitable for you personally, and drop the macho posturing, its antagonistic, and not in a good way. SIMPLES>

 

TOO BOSSY =

 

 

 

to Viator, earlier in the thread you offered this:

 

Cat,

 

I can vomit in your face. You are so disgusting.

[Marblehead]

Cat,

 

I can vomit in your face. You are so disgusting.

Winnie,

 

That was uncalled for. And as a result of what you said, you are disgusting. We all are what we reflect. That is a Taoist concept. (Has nothing to do with wu wei though.)

[Apech]

Cat,

 

I can vomit in your face. You are so disgusting.

 

Were we discussing what silly meant.

 

Oh yes ... well ...

 

 

*** Moderator Message ***

 

All winiepooh_ank posts are subject to moderator approval for the time being.

 

***Mod message ends***

 

ZZZZzzzz

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

I wish you would.

 

I would much rather discuss Wu Wei.

There are so many definitions of the term that are just as valid as any other.

 

One that is not valid, IMO, is it translates to "do nothing".

 

One I like is "doing naturally". That would translate to doing nothing if there is nothing to be done but if there is something that needs be done then do it in the most natural way possible.

 

Another one I like is "doing without alterior motive". That is to say, doing what needs be done simply because it needs be done, not for some type of reward or recognition.

 

And important, I think, is that wu wei does not concern itself with success or failure.

 

That should be a good start if anyone wishes to get back to the wu wei discussion. I am willing to discuss this with anyone whether you agree with me or not. Deeper discussions oftentimes identify earlier misunderstandings.

[Marblehead]

Would you regard a daily qigong praxis, with no aim other than to be present in the praxis itself as being Wu Wei?

Yes. And no, it doesn't matter if the inspiration to do so came from within or if someone suggested it and you thought it might be a good idea. As long as there is no inner conflict it is likely a natural (wu wei) thing for you to do.

[三江源]

Winnie,

 

That was uncalled for.

 

The understatement of this actually made me lol.

[Aaron]

Winniepooh_Ank,

 

I wanted to address some of the issues you seem to be having in regards to other people's comments in this thread. I am also going to do this by staying on topic. You are closely following religious Taoist doctrine, which very few of the members of this thread are knowledgeable about. In that light, what you are saying is actually Taoist, but not actually philosophical Taoism. The notion of sin in religious Taoism comes from the incorporation of other religious beliefs into the Taoist tradition, in particular folk lore, Buddhism, and Confucianism. So yes, for a traditional religious Taoist there is sin in Taoism and you do pay for your sins by spending time in hell, no joke to those who might not be aware of this. In fact sin plays a large part in hybridized sects of Taoism, such as I-Kuan Tao.

 

Now with this being said, any action that contradicts Wu-Wei would be considered sinful and also any act that is considered sinful would not be Wu-Wei (in religious Taoism). I think the problem you are having is that you are stating your truth and others are stating their's, and neither are willing to admit that it doesn't matter for spit.

 

Now in regards to being insulted, no one actually insulted you, they just questioned your arguments and you took insult. Taking insult doesn't warrant moderator action, only directly insulting others does. You allowed yourself to take offense and thus insulted others (committed a sin by the way and thus generated negative karma) and hence your actions required to the intercession of the authorities that be.

 

In the future I would suggest not allowing your emotions to get the best of you or your time here will be short lived.

 

Aaron

[JustARandomPanda]

There are so many definitions of the term that are just as valid as any other.

 

One that is not valid, IMO, is it translates to "do nothing".

 

One I like is "doing naturally". That would translate to doing nothing if there is nothing to be done but if there is something that needs be done then do it in the most natural way possible.

 

Another one I like is "doing without alterior motive". That is to say, doing what needs be done simply because it needs be done, not for some type of reward or recognition.

 

And important, I think, is that wu wei does not concern itself with success or failure.

 

That should be a good start if anyone wishes to get back to the wu wei discussion. I am willing to discuss this with anyone whether you agree with me or not. Deeper discussions oftentimes identify earlier misunderstandings.

 

Wow. Marblehead sometimes you post the most cool stuff.

 

I'd also like to add that I much prefer the old Chinese idea of personal, terrestrial and celestial luck over the Buddhist/Vedic ideas of karma. Karma has so much "baggage" heaped in that word that I find unhealthy and unhelpful. Not the least of which it can lead to "blaming the victim" because of the idea that he/she is being "paid back" for some evil crap he/she did earlier or in a former life.

 

The ancient Chinese idea of the 3 Lucks takes the blame game out of the equation while still acknowledging there are some things about life we can't change and others that we can.

[Apech]

...

 

I'd also like to add that I much prefer the old Chinese idea of personal, terrestrial and celestial luck over the Buddhist/Vedic ideas of karma. Karma has so much "baggage" heaped in that word that I find unhealthy and unhelpful. Not the least of which it can lead to "blaming the victim" because of the idea that he/she is being "paid back" for some evil crap he/she did earlier or in a former life.

 

...

 

That of course is a misrepresentation of Buddhist teaching on karma and goes against the attitude which can be engendered by thinking about karma ....

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

Oh , bother !

Stosh

[Marblehead]

Thanks Serene.

 

I'd also like to add that ...

Yes indeed. There is much of Shamanism and Alchemic Taoism attached to the concept of wu wei. But, of course, I don't speak to those things as I do not have the knowledge to do so.

[Stosh]

Can you elaborate on the 3 lucks (or anyone here)

You are born into a situation ,

your nature deals a hand

You play your cards as best you can

and your destiny finds you

Thats the fate of any man

 

Stosh

[三江源]

Oh , bother !

Stosh

 

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Stosh]

I had to google it ,

The connotations didnt seem to imply faith as I read it

and Im not a man of religious faith

so I translated it though my own lens

Vive the difference

Stosh

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[JustARandomPanda]

That of course is a misrepresentation of Buddhist teaching on karma and goes against the attitude which can be engendered by thinking about karma ....

 

Setting aside the theory....

 

I've noticed in actual practice for most people - unless they really know Buddhist teachings in-depth - the end result is often just as I said earlier.

 

I realize blaming others was not the Buddha's intent in the teaching about karma but most people aren't even sotapanas or arhats, much less Buddhas and so blaming the victim (or intended victim) is often the result no matter that the Buddha didn't speak to this.

 

 

And this is not unique to Buddhism. I've seen this in Hinduism too. Have even watched Youtube vids of religious Hindus polishing their military style guns to get ready to strike at targeted lower-caste fellow Hindus (*ie. Untouchables agitating for fairer treatment in society) for daring to 'upset the natural order'. All the while (when the documentary producer asked about it) explaining it's those lower caste people's karma because of their past evil deeds.

 

so...

 

Karma has accumulated some unhealthy cultural baggage just like Islam has accumulated some unhealthy cultural baggage with Jihad. This is why I prefer the Chinese way of looking at things.

 

 

 

 

***edit***

Just out of curiosity...I've sometimes wondered what made you finally decide Buddhism was just not your 'thing' and dumped it for Hermeticism instead? Apologies if that's getting too nosey...

Edited October 16, 2012 by SereneBlue

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[Birch]

Anyone else hear "That must just be your karma, dude" (or without the dude part) said more or less seriously right after something crappy happens to you? I imagine if I heard "That's just because you're a sinner, dude" said more or less seriously I would laugh loudly. Maybe not in the deep South, maybe not.

 

Anyway, so if religions can't successfully turn people into anything other than they are, and arguably gives them reasons to act much worse, what's the point of having them?

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[JustARandomPanda]

Not to jump into a private conversation, but this is along the lines of what happened to me with Christianity. It is not that the teachings of the new testament that were fundamentally flawed (outside of the influence of Paul), but that every "follower" of the faith was such a poor representation of what they claimed to believe that I could not conceive of associating with its hypocrisy.

 

Ultimately this was to my benefit, because it lead me to find Taoism some eighteen years ago. At the same time, the true fault with the faith lies with its "adherents" rather than its teachings. For me as well, it is hard to separate the two, but I do my best to at least try to remain objective about the teachings.

 

Right.

 

These kinds of misconceptions are similar to why I prefer the Chinese 3 Lucks. Otherwise...if I use the word karma I know I'd better be ready for a long dissertation to try to correct the average American's misunderstanding.

 

Most Americans have neither the time, interest nor patience to hear such things. They just hear the word Karma and immediately have a knee-jerk association of Karma = blaming the victim for why bad or evil things happen to good or innocent people.

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts