Approval seeking and Wu wei

[skydog]

the point sounds bad...but what the world be liked if everyone tried to make it 100% good...what is good..you cannot have good without bad..it goes together... again one persons harm is another persons benefit...if someone wanted to kill someone who murdered their brother out of love that is good or bad? it is just the way it is.

 

It is very simplistic to say do no harm..but its still ignorance in my opinion.

[Stosh]

To get back to the OP - approval seeking is a wonderful topic.

We are conditioned to be dependent on the approval of others from early childhood.

It starts with parents, then teachers, boy/girlfriends, friends, spouses, bosses,... it's endemic to socialization.

The primary fallacy underlying all of this is the idea that my happiness is dependent on or can be affected by anyone other than me.

If you look into this deeply over time, it can be discovered that my happiness rests totally within me.

One can come up with all sorts of scenarios that superficially seem to challenge that point of view.

But at the end of the day, if I am aware of my own patterns of emotional and psychological reaction, I get to choose whether or not I permit others' actions and words to affect my state of mind.

Thanks for posting on this everyone, I enjoy exploring this topic.

 

Im not sure I believe anybody is so independent as that ! Its possible I suppose , but I figure that to the extent one extends their heart to include another they become vulnerable. In the face of betrayal , divorce, cruelty ,death , I cant see it as virtuous to not be affected.

Stosh

 

But to be honest , I figure it is my reactions to other folks which is the biggest disturber of my peace

and to not have that be so would be very nice.

I know enough folks who claim they dont care about the opinions of other folks , but they give away the falsity of the claim in various ways later.

If youve got the solution , its worth a mint!

Edited September 11, 2012 by Stosh

[eye_of_the_storm]

the point sounds bad...but what the world be liked if everyone tried to make it 100% good...what is good..you cannot have good without bad..it goes together... again one persons harm is another persons benefit...if someone wanted to kill someone who murdered their brother out of love that is good or bad? it is just the way it is.

 

It is very simplistic to say do no harm..but its still ignorance in my opinion.

 

If everyone tried to make it 100% good it would be good.

 

Everyone knows good from bad... it is inherent, it is inescapable - some just to prefer to ignore that feeling... desensitized. If everyone made the effort...

 

Balance is not good v evil

 

You don't grow a flower by sometime nurturing it and sometimes pulling it out of the ground.

 

Growing a flower is about balance... the right amount of water... the right amount of sunlight etc.

 

Balance is perfection

 

Perfection is what we all are striving toward

 

Perfection is what pulls us forward

 

Perfection is the unobtainable

 

The Divine discontent?

 

Becoming more and more perfect

 

Sometimes I apply the as above to below / made in his image

 

If I have the desire for perfection, does nature strive for perfection?

 

Nature appears to be move toward higher order?

 

Sometimes I think.... All these people praying to God etc...

 

What if God fully manifest itself into all creation... there is no God outside of us... we are all God... becoming God... or Gods?

 

Maybe we should all start acting like Gods?

 

Am I allowed? Will I allow myself?

 

What if God was an Apple Tree and we are the Fruit... the destiny of the fruit is to seed and become an Apple Tree too?

 

Some say... God being the only thing in existence truly must be very lonely... kind of said to think about it really haha

 

If I were God... another one of my contemplations

 

Maybe I would create other Gods... like a self replicating cell? ever expanding... into infinity

 

Is God / Tao trying to Know itself? through Us... US being God? Man trying to know ourselves

 

hmm

 

haha!

Edited September 11, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[et-thoughts]

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[et-thoughts]

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[et-thoughts]

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[Marblehead]

Wow! Nice run of posts Y'all!!!

 

I watched a movie last night titled "Immortals" (the Greek ones).

 

And yes, the gods interferred in the doings of man.

 

But what does "Do no harm" really mean? It isn't a Taoist concept. Does it mean I cannot harm (and kill) any animal or plant in order to feed myself? I don't think so. Does it mean I cannot harm a person who is trying to kill me? Again, I don't think so.

[skydog]

Everyone already does try to make it 100 % good...that is human nature..its just that people have different concepts of "I" which will include things like only family or only football team...also people have different values...do you think people really aim for the worst, no people always strive for the best but only according to their present beliefs, values and conception...

 

One may think it is harmful to ones own self to not speak up and question other peoples ideas and harmful to them too...so who is not doing harm?

 

Everyone is always trying not to do harm..

 

Yes Im focusing on the bad...doesnt make one evil...it is just because everyone is focusing on the good. you cannot have good without bad.. There a part of each other..trying to make the universe all light is kind of an impossible task...

[ChiDragon]

But what does "Do no harm" really mean? It isn't a Taoist concept. Does it mean I cannot harm (and kill) any animal or plant in order to feed myself? I don't think so. Does it mean I cannot harm a person who is trying to kill me? Again, I don't think so.

 

Passive killing is allowable in Taoist concept. Why do you think Taoists practice Tai Ji with a sword....???

Edited September 11, 2012 by ChiDragon

[et-thoughts]

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[et-thoughts]

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[skydog]

hmm ok I made this thread saying people do the things they do because at some point in their lives they came up with belief, thought or idea.. which pointed them to do that so therefore in a way like a flower is perfect even when it is dying...everything has an innate perfection...

 

This sounds beautiful so people are willing to accept it..

 

But truth is not always beautiful...

 

Ok so when I said you cant have good without bad..Im trying to go further than that...good and bad are beliefs...emotions based on ideas...is it neccessarily bad to die early...

 

harm according to who...one person...two people...ideas...goals...values or the universe...

 

This is not advocating killing people this is beyond good and bad...just like taoism is.

 

and yes you can say there is such a thing as "good" or "bad" eg pure violence...but is it really, Im not even sure..my dog chases a fox and tries to kill it...Im not sure if its being evil...

[skydog]

Ok try to do something "bad" or "wrong"....

 

 

 

 

 

kind of impossible right

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[et-thoughts]

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[skydog]

everything is in the universe is one manifested in a different place called me.. So I still fail to see how the universe can do something wrong..

 

 

Most of us divide-up our life experience into those we like and those we don’t. But the Taoist masters teach us to look deeper. In the flow of yin and yang everything is constantly changing into its opposite. The more we live with awareness of the inevitable tides of the Tao, the more it seems superficial and misguided to reject some experiences and try to hold onto others. It is better to accept the wholeness of life.

A traditional Taoist story illustrates these teachings.

"When an old farmer’s stallion wins a prize at a country show, his neighbour calls round to congratulate him, but the old farmer says, “Who knows what is good and what is bad?”

The next day some thieves come and steal his valuable animal. His neighbour comes to commiserate with him, but the old man replies, “Who knows what is good and what is bad?”

A few days later the spirited stallion escapes from the thieves and joins a herd of wild mares, leading them back to the farm. The neighbour calls to share the farmer’s joy, but the farmer says, “Who knows what is good and what is bad?”

The following day, while trying to break in one of the mares, the farmer’s son is thrown and fractures his leg. The neighbour calls to share the farmer’s sorrow, but the old man’s attitude remains the same as before.

The following week the army passes by, forcibly conscripting soldiers for the war, but they do not take the farmer’s son because he cannot walk. The neighbour thinks to himself, “Who knows what is good and what is bad?” and realises that the old farmer

[eye_of_the_storm]

... we do not live in an absolute reality... (from our present perception/awareness etc)

 

If Tao was fully manifest within everyone...

 

If everyone was a Buddha? can you imagine?

 

But this is not the case...

 

Not everyone is trying to do good either... some people are malicious // they know exactly what they are doing.

 

Some people are just plain apathetic

 

You have empathic people to psychopathic people

 

The difference is... you know better

 

@ et-thoughts

 

If God is all there is.... how can one not be God?

 

It is impossible...

 

Now I say people/ all creatures are at different levels of God realization

 

Or Oneness with the Great Tao...?

 

or Buddha Nature?

 

Whichever one prefers

Edited September 11, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[et-thoughts]

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[et-thoughts]

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[skydog]

Sometimes I think the best philosophy is silence...

 

and am pushing my comfort zone with this...but

 

if someone is apathetic, psychopathic/malicious...there is something which has caused a disharmony kind of like a dog that gets beaten up everyday and is more aggressive/crazy...can we call the dog bad?

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[skydog]

bad according to what?

 

What values, ideas, beliefs is the dog not living up to..

 

Are those values, ideas and beliefs true?

Edited September 11, 2012 by sinansencer

[skydog]

Morality & taoism

There is nothing good or bad, but thinking makes it so.

 

(Shakespeare)

Morality?

 

Morality does not actually exist.

It is a value judgement applied to phenomena.

The judgement criteria is determined by our upbringing, culture, education and conditioning.

 

What one person thinks is right/good, another may consider to be wrong/evil.

It is a matter of perspective.

 

 

Taoism

 

Taoism does not really favour formal codes of conduct - preferring the individual to be morally self-governing.

It recognises that morality does not actually exist.

There is no inherent morality in phenomena: rainfall or a cold wind is not bad, being angry is not bad and being friendly is not good.

When morality is applied to reality, it divides the world into agreeable and disagreeable facets.

 

Taoism is not arguing for or against morality, it simply indicates the fact that morality is something that is applied, rather than something that is.

 

 

Te

 

'Te' refers to the essence of something: the treeness of tree, the femaleness of women...

It is an inherent quality that makes a dog a dog and not a cat.

 

The essence/nature/character of something is not a moral condition.

For example: having sex is neither good nor bad. Whether you have sex with your own partner, or someone else's.

Sex is not a moral act.

It is a natural, healthy process that is linked to the survival of our species.

 

The difficulties in life occur when we try to apply rules and conditions to things that are not inherently good/bad, moral or immoral.

Rules

 

Society imposes many rules, values and social customs upon the individual.

Are these codes actually moral?

And by whose standards?

 

Much of modern culture seems to be determined by business.

Business is about exploiting opportunity, making a profit, seeking to advance at the expense of others.

Is business a good source for morality?

 

Religious morals may seem more healthy and balanced than those of business, yet religions are not without fault.

Wars have been fought over belief systems.

The very basis of a religion has been set aside in order to promote the religion itself through conflict.

Does this speak well of applied morality?

Children approach everything and everyone with curiosity.

Their minds have not yet categorised, labelled and dissected things and people,

thus they perceive things and people as they really are.

 

(John Lash)

Should we reject morality?

 

Taoism does not suggest any course of action.

It merely invites you to understand the processes of your own consciousness.

You see and assess the world according to who you, not according to how it is.

 

Can you see the danger of this? The sheer naivety?

 

We are all taught to be moral.

But are we capable of determining right or wrong, good or bad?

Should we trust our own judgement?

[et-thoughts]

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Edited December 11, 2012 by et-thoughts

[skydog]

are any values, ideas, thoughts, beliefs....true? 100%