External + Internal Martial Arts

[eye_of_the_storm]

Posted Today, 08:36 PM

 

White Wolf Running On Air, on 09 September 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

 

Nice!

 

What are you thoughts on Systema?

 

Celestial

 

I don't know much about it but from what I've read it's just another martial art focused on external power. I do believe you need to know some sort of martial art but internal power and stillness will always triumph over external force. However, there is a level of mastery required far greater than that of knowing how to throw a few punches and kicks to get by.

 

For example, I can take a year or less of any martial art and know how to fight someone with little to no training and survive. Granted of course, the person you happen to fight isn't simply bigger and naturally stronger. Yet, it's nearly impossible to beat someone no matter their training level if you only focus on internal power for less than a year.

 

Internal power takes a lot of time, dedication, and patience. Most just want to hit the heavy bag and call it a day.

Edited September 9, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]

My MA knowledge is little to nothing

 

Though I noticed Systema having some similarity with Aikido... maybe pressure point work too

 

As for internal Ive seen some no contact systema videos where the guy seems to be manipulating the opponents energy and bringing him to the ground without any physical contact.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAFuPIUYv3Y

 

^ Unsure as to the authenticity

 

I imagine the no contact work is similar to pressure point work and cutting off the chi? nerve etc? ... except in a non physical manner.

 

Ninjutsu?

 

What do you practice?

Edited September 9, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Celestial]

Like most videos that display one guy shoving another to the ground effortlessly (as seen in 99% of the videos on youtube regarding ancient chinese martial arts) really doesn't prove anything in my opinion.

 

Imagine being confronted by someone who wants to fight you but before he throws a punch or kick you tell him to kindly place his right hand here (points to elbows), and his left hand here (points to my palm), then simply wait in position as I shove you to the ground with little to no force. This is not reality.

 

Reality is being caught off guard by someone who wants to throw down. Reality is not knowing if they're trained or untrained in martial arts or fighting in general. Reality is the guy could be twice or even three times your size with strength greater than yours. Always the best form of martial arts is the one where you don't fight at all.

 

But...

 

If you're forced to fight for some reason, internal power will serve you greater than judo chops and tiger knees.

 

For external power take the best techniques from various martial arts all around the world and then create your own style. Similar to what Bruce Lee did with Jeet Kun Do. The way of no way.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Celestial

[eye_of_the_storm]

true

[Celestial]

There are however people who just want to learn something new and use it as a way to stay in shape. Martial Arts in any form is good for this. I am weary of schools that promote self-defense, discipline and can guarantee belt advancement. These are called 'Corporate Martial Arts' and should be be avoided like the plague. Sadly, the majority of schools in the West are setup like this. I remember one place was offering a "Black Belt Program" guaranteeing that you'll earn your black belt in 5 years if you sign a long-term contract with them. It makes me sick just thinking about it.

 

To be honest, I don't believe in the "belt" system. It's silly. A true student/master shouldn't feel the need to put what he knows on display in the form of a colorful belt.

 

Also, self-defense can be learned but never mastered unless you devote your entire life to your practice, not just 2-3 hours a week in some karate class. Discipline is developed through consistent effort over time. It cannot be taught simply by showing up once in awhile and shouting, "KI-AH" over and over while mindlessly kicking the air. Or worse, memorizing useless forms that do nothing but promote blood circulation; which can be accomplished through various cardio exercises that have nothing to do with the arts. I probably just made every westerner squeal with that statement but it's true. Katas/forms to me are a dance and an ancient form of cardio exercise before modern equipment such as the elliptical machine came into existence.

 

I suggest figuring out why you want to learn martial arts first, then choose something that looks fun and stick with it. Chances are you're not going to end up in a lot of fights, and if you're a busy person - 9 to 5 job, girlfriend/wife, kids, friends, etc - you won't have time to master anything anyway.

 

Knowing why is more important than what and how.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Celestial

[eye_of_the_storm]

I agree

 

//////////////////

 

Why?

 

+ To strengthen the Will

+ Exercise mind and body

+ be able to better defend oneself and others if necessary

 

and fun

 

Mastery would be difficult

 

as you said time + $ etc

 

Unless one goes into teaching or an apprenticeship...

 

One of the problems today I think is everything being so compartmentalized / isolated / divided

 

Society etc / people have just become a part of the machine / factory line / program

 

A man of the past was resourceful and skilled in many things... from building houses, boats, farming, fighting etc

 

hmm relation to MA...

 

I guess your mentioning of the 9-5 too busy etc... and the limitations of this

 

hmm

 

I really don't like the machine haha

Edited September 10, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Celestial]

Everyone today just wants the quick fix. Which is why so many people turn to pharmaceutical drugs to mask whatever problems they're having internally. No one wants to go to the root and fix it from within. Because to look inside oneself takes patience and faith. It has nothing to do with religion either.

 

A lady visits her Doctor asking for something to get rid of her chronic heartburn. The Doctor prescribes a form of heartburn medication (quick fix) and sends her on her way. I asked this lady (a friend of a friend) what does she normally eat, and she replied with, "lasagna, pasta, pizza, etc" - I'm like, "Well no wonder why you're having heartburn!"

 

Moderation is key.

 

The problem is not the machine; the problem is the people. People have no self-control. They lack discipline, focus, and positive energy. Those three things don't magically appear after joining a gym or martial arts class either. It has to start with your everyday habits. What are they and are they good for you? Do you workout at least 3 days a week? Do you pound a tub of ice cream before bed? Do you drink soda or water? Do you meditate or do you contemplate?

 

I live by the 90/10 rule. Whereas 90% of the time I eat healthy, the other 10% I eat whatever I please. Anytime I tip the scale above and beyond 10% my body sends warning signals in the form of a common cold, the flu, or just a simple headache or stomachache. Rather than rushing out to the Doctor, I simply scale back and reboot.

 

Will power isn't taught through Martial Arts; it's something you have to instill in your daily routine. Make it a habit. Read this book: http://www.amazon.co...words=Bruce Lee

 

You may find it enlightening.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Celestial

[eye_of_the_storm]

Ah yes, I have that book - good stuff

 

I think exercise + MA does.... hm perhaps not... maybe you either have it or you don't haha

 

In terms of Will

 

I was going to say what is it that makes you push your body to failure... or that extra 5 -10 push ups that burn like hell etc

 

Perhaps this can't be taught but is inherent in the person for whatever reason.

 

I think a lot of it also is unfolding or coming to the realization of what one is really capable of

 

+ yes to people

Edited September 10, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Celestial]

In terms of Will

 

I was going to say what is it that makes you push your body to failure... or that extra 5 -10 push ups that burn like hell etc

 

A goal. It's that simple. If you workout for the sake of just working out, you'll get nowhere. As an example, a friend of mine tried 'Arnold Program' which is Arnold Schwarzenegger's personal workout plan. He was all gung-ho about it. It lasted roughly a month and then he quit. Why? Because he didn't have a goal outside of wanting to complete the program. What he failed to see is that Arnold had the goal to compete. This drove Arnold towards perfection. He knew that he had to get in extreme shape if he was going to win Mr. Olympia - which he went on to win seven times. The goal wasn't simply to get in shape or finish a particular program.

 

This is why I asked you "why" do you want to do this.

 

Getting in shape is just the first layer. Which comes naturally when you put in the work. You have to find a deeper meaning. Now, don't get me wrong; this doesn't mean it has to be esoteric. Your goal could be as simple as wanting to make the varsity football team, or finally get laid. I am not making assumptions about you, just speaking generally here. But these are goals that in fact go beyond just wanting to get in shape.

 

Some people want to meditate to remove the chatter from their mind. I say that's only the first layer and not enough. Go deeper. Yet, don't go so deep where you lose sight of the goal in the long-term. Meaning, don't set your goal so ridiculously high that it takes you a lifetime (or more) to achieve it.

 

I hope this makes sense.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Yes Why is important...

 

Why... has been popping up a lot these past couple of days

 

Motivation = Purpose

 

^ though this isn't in line with eastern thought / Buddhism / Taoism really... (Buddhism more so)

 

I spent some time trying to erase myself hahah.... doesn't really get one very far.

Edited September 11, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Celestial]

I mean, you could just want to have fun and that's why you choose to do Martial Arts or whatever it is that interests you. There's nothing wrong with just wanting to have some fun.

 

But if you're looking for something much more, something that changes your lifestyle forever; then the why must go beyond just having fun. Besides, going deeper is part of the fun.

 

To get this thread back on track though, choosing a martial art that is focused primarily on external force really has to do with what's available in your area. If you lived in Thailand you'd most likely be taking Muay Thai or some form of kickboxing. First it may be a good idea to find out what's in your area then decide if it's right for you.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Celestial

[eye_of_the_storm]

Options are

 

Traditional Korean Karate

Wing Chun

Sakura Hana Ryu

Muay Tai

Aikido

 

+ The Australian Academy of Tai Chi

 

I would like to get into Kyudo I think

 

 

Or Tai Chi ...

 

All speculation at present hah...

 

Systema is still of interest

 

MA isn't all that popular where I live

 

I'll just continue with physical / mental exercise

 

I gather your practice consists of Mo Pai Neikung and?

 

are you working toward the no contact aspect demonstated in the video above (whether that demonstration is authentic or not) or more in line with the feats of Shaolin monks?

 

Edited September 11, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[z00se]

I did tai chi for a year taikwando for about 3 months and aikido for about 4 months (still doing it). Also i've done internal energy work consitantly and iron shirt less regularly for 8 years. My Tai Chi teacher was awesome and we did lots of push hands and sparing with the teacher but after that one year i would never rely on my Tai Chi in a fight, i would just get pounded. I did a hard karate when i was about 7 years old, for about 3 months and i think that is the best training for fighting i ever had. I've practiced hitting a bag every now and then and thats useful too.

 

TaiChi is really just for fun, you can't really use it for fighting unless you've been doing it for many years like 10+. After that much time i guess you don't really use tai chi in a fight, it just does it's self. The internal work speeds up your progress and lets you stay in the zone mentally more easily, but it's freakin hard to stay in a meditative state when a fist is headed straight for your face.

 

Aikido seems pretty good, my teacher is a pretty big guy and uses quiet a bit of strength/rooting as well as timing and going with the flow. Using strength makes it more practical unless you live in a meditative state all day long and can stay that way in a fight. After 4 months i dont' feel It wouldn't make me feel confident fighting someone with any martial skill, but someone with no training i guess i'd be a little more prepared. I guess my iron shirt would make me a little more resilient to punches and kicks but definately not impregnable by any stretch of the imagination.

 

I'd say other than my hard karate training when i was very young, my tai chi teacher taught us nasty attacks like easy ways to break ribs, eyes, throat, snap fingers etc. If i was protecting myself i don't think i'd hesitate to snap someones extremities if i thought there was any chance of me losing.

 

I'm trying to (rather slowly) develop iron palm so i think that would be very useful in a fight, but you still need the opportunity to get it in, but its going to be more effective than whirling around doing tai chi in a tight area in a nightclub or whatever.

 

Internal martial arts i'd have to say are the most useless in the real world. They can help with your development of the external stuff, but shooting out chi to effect meridians and this type of stuff is just useless in my opinion. It isn't going to get you anywhere when a glass is getting shoved in your face.

 

I rekon kick boxing is going to make anyone pretty damn tough. I don't wanna damage my body for when i'm older though.

[z00se]

Ah yes, I have that book - good stuff

 

I think exercise + MA does.... hm perhaps not... maybe you either have it or you don't haha

 

In terms of Will

 

I was going to say what is it that makes you push your body to failure... or that extra 5 -10 push ups that burn like hell etc

 

Perhaps this can't be taught but is inherent in the person for whatever reason.

 

I think a lot of it also is unfolding or coming to the realization of what one is really capable of

 

+ yes to people

 

If you wanna compete i'd say this pushing to the limit is good but not for long term, You can't push to the limit your whole life you'll break something. The best thing is doing something that is fun and you enjoy doing it. Then you get better at it without effort, and 10 years later you're pretty awesome at it. 20 years later you're near unbeatable, even if you quit and restarted a few times.

[Celestial]

People give up before internal arts become beneficial for them and thus have the attitude that it's useless. It could also be the fact that they don't know what they're doing or don't have a good teacher. A lot of people don't want to admit that though because they paid good money to learn and need to justify their mistake. Then there's the possibility that people are not practicing as hard as they think they might be. Like I said in a previous post, showing up to Karate class a few times a week won't get you far.

 

I always get a good laugh when people say internal power is useless because what I've seen personally says otherwise.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Celestial

[Aetherous]

Internal martial arts i'd have to say are the most useless in the real world. They can help with your development of the external stuff, but shooting out chi to effect meridians and this type of stuff is just useless in my opinion. It isn't going to get you anywhere when a glass is getting shoved in your face.

 

I think Western boxing is the key if you're going to really be fighting. I am hardly trained in the MA and a bad fighter in general when I've been tested, but I would take on a taiji or bagua player before ever considering disrespecting a real boxer. Fists of fury!

 

 

Basics...how to make a fist so that you won't hurt yourself. That's a big deal. Flashy martial arts training for decades won't compare to someone who simply has two fists that can do damage to you and not to them.

Edited September 11, 2012 by turtle shell

[Celestial]

I think Western boxing is the key if you're going to really be fighting. I am hardly trained in the MA and a bad fighter in general when I've been tested, but I would take on a taiji or bagua player before ever considering disrespecting a real boxer. Fists of fury!

 

 

Basics...how to make a fist so that you won't hurt yourself. That's a big deal. Flashy martial arts training for decades won't compare to someone who simply has two fists that can do damage to you and not to them.

 

That video doesn't prove anything other than the fact that the guy in the yellow and black jacket knew how to fight and the other two were just idiots. Neither of those guys had any experience in true internal power. If they did, they would have never made the first move to begin with. It just looked like two cocky wrestler types looking to start trouble and in return got their asses handed to them. I mean what true master hits a woman? Especially one that was caught off guard and did nothing to instigate them in the first place. Come on man.

 

That's a horrible example to compare internal to external. No offense, it just is. Also that video shows the guy who knew boxing had no strength behind his punches. The two guys got up fairly quickly and brushed it off. What good is that going to do you if you can't even knock someone out? Keep in mind, the guy threw more than just one punch.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Celestial

[Aetherous]

My bad, the video wasn't an attempt to compare internal to external...it was simply showing how someone who has some training in boxing can kick ass in reality.

 

I have nothing against internal MA, of course...I am a beginner at taijiquan. Everything has its purpose...my only point was that it's good to know the real basics of real fighting, if that's what you're going to do.

[Celestial]

My bad, the video wasn't an attempt to compare internal to external...it was simply showing how someone who has some training in boxing can kick ass in reality.

 

I have nothing against internal MA, of course...I am a beginner at taijiquan. Everything has its purpose...my only point was that it's good to know the real basics of real fighting, if that's what you're going to do.

 

Sorry, my mistake, my response was based off of this comment you made: "but I would take on a taiji or bagua player before ever considering disrespecting a real boxer." -- which is why I thought you were using that video as an example to prove one is better over the other.

 

I agree with you about knowing the real basics of fighting. Boxing/Striking is a great start. However, focusing internally will give you much more power behind your punches versus just training the external side of fighting.

 

But, I bet we'd both agree that it really just depends on what you want to get out of your training.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Celestial

[Aetherous]

How do you train internally to improve your striking, Celestial?

[Celestial]

How do you train internally to improve your striking, Celestial?

 

It doesn't improve my striking technique, it increases the power behind the strikes. That's why I agreed with you in that it's a good idea to learn the basics of real fighting such as boxing.

 

To train internally you have to first build up and store your chi; this takes a considerable amount of time. And that's just the first step.

[Aetherous]

Oh, I thought you were referring to...

 

(Force × Distance) ÷ Time = Power

 

Where "internal" attributes like alignment, stance, etc...can increase the amount of Force (strength) produced by a strike. Or "internal" work for increasing speed (Time). I don't think qi development can substantially increase this type of power in striking...but that's not something you can really prove or disprove.

[Celestial]

Yeah, and from what I've seen personally I'd much rather step in the ring with the likes of Mike Tyson than someone who's mastered true internal power.

 

And I don't mean what I've seen on YouTube. Lol. But of course to most this sounds ridiculous and they'll never believe it in a million years, which is probably why they'll never achieve such power in the first place.

 

Edit: Watch this video. This guy is trained, has great footwork, technique, and falls right in line with your "force formula" yet he still couldn't take down a common street thug.

 

Edited September 11, 2012 by Celestial

[z00se]

What do you mean by MASTERED true internal power? I don't think anyone can do a street fighter HADORKEN any more. I think the most effective thing you could get from internal power, other than the timing / structural benefit, is that you could calm an attacker down and avoid the fight all together. Internal power isn't shooting fireballs out of your hands, even that john chang bloke took a few seconds to start lighting some paper on fire. I don't think someone is going to stand there waiting for you to light them on fire after they start feeling hot. Besides that was dry paper and this is a moist human being. You'd be better off burning him with your cigarette.

 

I think you are putting internal martial arts on a pedistal. Internal only serves to boost external. On it's own it's nothing.

[Celestial]

What do you mean by MASTERED true internal power? I don't think anyone can do a street fighter HADORKEN any more. I think the most effective thing you could get from internal power, other than the timing / structural benefit, is that you could calm an attacker down and avoid the fight all together. Internal power isn't shooting fireballs out of your hands, even that john chang bloke took a few seconds to start lighting some paper on fire. I don't think someone is going to stand there waiting for you to light them on fire after they start feeling hot. Besides that was dry paper and this is a moist human being. You'd be better off burning him with your cigarette.

 

I think you are putting internal martial arts on a pedistal. Internal only serves to boost external. On it's own it's nothing.

 

 

Fireballs? Where did I say fireballs?? You're grasping for straws. You watched a YouTube clip of John Chang and decided that was going to be the basis of your argument? Lol! That alone shows how little you know about internal power. I on the other hand, was talking about power behind each punch. With mastery of internal force you can do more damage with your punches than someone who just focuses on the external.

 

I am closing this debate with you because no matter what you'll never believe a word I say. It's like a conspiracy theorist arguing whether or not American's really landed on the moon. Or who actually assassinated JFK. Some people believe what their told, others experience it for themselves before passing judgement.

 

Good luck.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Celestial