External + Internal Martial Arts

[Celestial]

Accidental double post. Sorry.

 

White Wolf ~ If you would like to discuss further, send me a PM.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Celestial

[Aetherous]

Edit: Watch this video. This guy is trained, has great footwork, technique, and falls right in line with your "force formula" yet he still couldn't take down a common street thug.

 

What I saw was that he was in almost complete control of the thug during the fight, and the thug ended up getting arrested rather than getting away. A knockout is never guaranteed by throwing a punch...you're "lucky" if that happens.

 

They both put up a good fight for their skill levels.

 

If you're trying to say that qi development adds power to a punch that will help knock someone out...well, maybe you're right. I tend to doubt it. Iron palm type training might help...but the real foundation is the external development and skill (taking boxing lessons). Just my view.

 

Edit: For fun...

 

Edited September 12, 2012 by turtle shell

[Celestial]

I thought the thug couldn't fight at all. Watch it again. He had no form, no footwork, no nothing really. I think whatever external art you decide to take is a good thing; if anything it's great for exercise and laying a foundation. But until you see what a master of internal power can do, there's no point in a debate. Like I said in a previous post to z00se, you might as well be arguing over who shot Kennedy.

 

Edit: I've seen that video before, it's hilarious. I would love to watch a video like that but where the attacker gets someone in a nasty muay thai clinch and goes to work.

Edited September 12, 2012 by Celestial

[Aetherous]

Of course the thug had like no skill...but he did put up a fight.

 

Where is a master of internal power? So far, no offense, but you have just been talking and not showing anything to prove the point you're trying to make. You may as well be speaking of unicorns. Furthermore, why talk...if you know about this stuff, are you training and can you demonstrate what you're talking about yet? If you don't have personal experience in doing it, then how can you say it's real?

 

By the way, how long have you been interested in and trained in your qi development?

[zerostao]

i like the new name turtle shell

[ChiDragon]

I thought the thug couldn't fight at all. Watch it again. He had no form, no footwork, no nothing really.

 

Of course the thug had like no skill...but he did put up a fight.

 

The so called thug has no special skill but have some good natural body gestures as compared to all the other thugs.

 

Have you noticed that the way he stood which always have the upper torso in the vertical position and one leg in front of the other. That was good footing.

 

All the others were flying off just falling to the ground when they strike because they have their torsos in the diagonal position. That was an indication of bad footing and actually they were fighting against gravity.

 

PS....

This is only my BS opinion(BSO).

Edited September 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[i am]

I may be out of line stepping in here, but I think a lot of what causes people to "not buy" the internal arts stuff is that for some reason they think of it as some mystical thing. Maybe better to use hard and soft? The hard (external) arts are about muscular force. Someone who first learns a hard style will, after a short time training, destroy someone who has spent the same amount of time in a soft (internal) style. It takes a long time to learn soft styles. The hard styles focus more directly on quickly developing a hard punch or kick, and basic self defense. Your soft style teacher may make you stand in place meditating for 45 minutes every day for a month to develop root, before they even teach you a punch.

 

Hard styles are not sustainable into old age. They break you down. Soft styles are about reading your opponents intentions through feeling where their body is going, and helping them to go that way, right down onto the ground. Help them defeat themselves. Soft styles train with more throws, which, for the person doing the throwing, are no impact. They train to use chi (not some mystical fireball thing. ENERGY, the kind you can plainly feel in your body) to increase power. You use your punch like a whip. Relaxed, until the last second. You can have someone up off the ground, feet over head, in a second with a completely smooth, relaxed motion (think snake creeps down). Spooky effective. No fireballs necessary. Soft styles read the opponent, use sticking techniques, some integrate pressure points. They all revolve around using a more muscularly relaxed force. You're always going to find someone stronger than you. To beat them, it takes a deeper technique. The soft arts don't rely on pitting strength against strength.

 

Most people who study hard styles will eventually integrate soft techniques into them as they go deeper into their art. Just like anything. At first you learn the most effective, fast-result stuff. The you Go Deeper. The deeper part is when it becomes Internal. Not when you can affect someone's energy field just by using your chi from afar. I mean really. Maybe someone who studied for a lifetime, maybe could make you drop just by laying a hand on you, but this is just one small, unproven, almost silly part of the internal arts.

 

If you really learn what the internal/soft arts are, and talk in depth with any old, deep, intelligent master of a hard/external art, you'll find that they've taken their art to an internal place. Same with any master of anything. They aren't talking physical technique so much anymore. They're talking about what feeling they have, what's " going on" inside them, rather than what they're externally doing.

 

The sooner people stop thinking of chi as some otherworldly, mystical thing, and more as the basic energy it is, the sooner they'll understand more of this. All external arts have internal aspects to them, and all internal arts have external aspects. Xing yi is an especially external internal art.

 

A lot of the issue is that because of the time commitment, you just don't see a lot of really accomplished internal arts people. And a lot of them aren't getting into street brawls : ) most of what I've seen of the internal arts, you can't just go around doing to people. A boxer can punch somebody a bunch of times and hurt them. But the things my teacher has shown me, when I learn the application of a movement I've been working on...I mean it's just brutal. There are just a lot of things you can't "spar" with, they aren't meant for sport.

 

Having said all that, if you just want to kick butt, take some real self defense, hard/external style classes. The amount of time and effort to get there with an internal art isn't probably worth it in today's world. I do bagua and taiji because I love the deep, meditative, energy work side of it. I'll leave the butt kicking to others.

Edited September 13, 2012 by i am

[JessOBrien]

i am you are saying lots of nice stuff.

but the deep meditative energy work side of it is a HUGE benefit if you want to spar.

Making your mind more intuitive, reacting more smoothly and getting better timing and awareness all lead to way harder hits and better defenses.

get out there and mix it up with some gloves on I'll bet you will get better results than you expect!!

[Celestial]

I may be out of line stepping in here, but I think a lot of what causes people to "not buy" the internal arts stuff is that for some reason they think of it as some mystical thing. Maybe better to use hard and soft? The hard (external) arts are about muscular force. Someone who first learns a hard style will, after a short time training, destroy someone who has spent the same amount of time in a soft (internal) style. It takes a long time to learn soft styles. The hard styles focus more directly on quickly developing a hard punch or kick, and basic self defense. Your soft style teacher may make you stand in place meditating for 45 minutes every day for a month to develop root, before they even teach you a punch.

 

Hard styles are not sustainable into old age. They break you down. Soft styles are about reading your opponents intentions through feeling where their body is going, and helping them to go that way, right down onto the ground. Help them defeat themselves. Soft styles train with more throws, which, for the person doing the throwing, are no impact. They train to use chi (not some mystical fireball thing. ENERGY, the kind you can plainly feel in your body) to increase power. You use your punch like a whip. Relaxed, until the last second. You can have someone up off the ground, feet over head, in a second with a completely smooth, relaxed motion (think snake creeps down). Spooky effective. No fireballs necessary. Soft styles read the opponent, use sticking techniques, some integrate pressure points. They all revolve around using a more muscularly relaxed force. You're always going to find someone stronger than you. To beat them, it takes a deeper technique. The soft arts don't rely on pitting strength against strength.

 

Most people who study hard styles will eventually integrate soft techniques into them as they go deeper into their art. Just like anything. At first you learn the most effective, fast-result stuff. The you Go Deeper. The deeper part is when it becomes Internal. Not when you can affect someone's energy field just by using your chi from afar. I mean really. Maybe someone who studied for a lifetime, maybe could make you drop just by laying a hand on you, but this is just one small, unproven, almost silly part of the internal arts.

 

If you really learn what the internal/soft arts are, and talk in depth with any old, deep, intelligent master of a hard/external art, you'll find that they've taken their art to an internal place. Same with any master of anything. They aren't talking physical technique so much anymore. They're talking about what feeling they have, what's " going on" inside them, rather than what they're externally doing.

 

The sooner people stop thinking of chi as some otherworldly, mystical thing, and more as the basic energy it is, the sooner they'll understand more of this. All external arts have internal aspects to them, and all internal arts have external aspects. Xing yi is an especially external internal art.

 

A lot of the issue is that because of the time commitment, you just don't see a lot of really accomplished internal arts people. And a lot of them aren't getting into street brawls : ) most of what I've seen of the internal arts, you can't just go around doing to people. A boxer can punch somebody a bunch of times and hurt them. But the things my teacher has shown me, when I learn the application of a movement I've been working on...I mean it's just brutal. There are just a lot of things you can't "spar" with, they aren't meant for sport.

 

Having said all that, if you just want to kick butt, take some real self defense, hard/external style classes. The amount of time and effort to get there with an internal art isn't probably worth it in today's world. I do bagua and taiji because I love the deep, meditative, energy work side of it. I'll leave the butt kicking to others.

 

Such a great post, couldn't agree with you more. I mentioned something similar to White Wolf in a previous thread which is what compelled him to create a separate thread for discussion.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Celestial

[ChiDragon]

There is a reason behind the practice of hard and soft(nei gong). Hard was for someone who is already born with a good physical condition. In the contrary, those who are born with a weak body need to start with the soft to build up their physical condition such as muscle tone.

 

PS....

This is only my BSO....

Edited September 14, 2012 by ChiDragon

[eye_of_the_storm]

Good reading thanks for the input folks... was away for a day or so

[eye_of_the_storm]

I must say the ART aspect is also intriguing / captivating and something to aspire to in itself

 

as much as Ballet or Piano etc

[z00se]

I may be out of line stepping in here, but I think a lot of what causes people to "not buy" the internal arts stuff is that for some reason they think of it as some mystical thing. Maybe better to use hard and soft? The hard (external) arts are about muscular force. Someone who first learns a hard style will, after a short time training, destroy someone who has spent the same amount of time in a soft (internal) style. It takes a long time to learn soft styles. The hard styles focus more directly on quickly developing a hard punch or kick, and basic self defense. Your soft style teacher may make you stand in place meditating for 45 minutes every day for a month to develop root, before they even teach you a punch.

 

Hard styles are not sustainable into old age. They break you down. Soft styles are about reading your opponents intentions through feeling where their body is going, and helping them to go that way, right down onto the ground. Help them defeat themselves. Soft styles train with more throws, which, for the person doing the throwing, are no impact. They train to use chi (not some mystical fireball thing. ENERGY, the kind you can plainly feel in your body) to increase power. You use your punch like a whip. Relaxed, until the last second. You can have someone up off the ground, feet over head, in a second with a completely smooth, relaxed motion (think snake creeps down). Spooky effective. No fireballs necessary. Soft styles read the opponent, use sticking techniques, some integrate pressure points. They all revolve around using a more muscularly relaxed force. You're always going to find someone stronger than you. To beat them, it takes a deeper technique. The soft arts don't rely on pitting strength against strength.

 

Most people who study hard styles will eventually integrate soft techniques into them as they go deeper into their art. Just like anything. At first you learn the most effective, fast-result stuff. The you Go Deeper. The deeper part is when it becomes Internal. Not when you can affect someone's energy field just by using your chi from afar. I mean really. Maybe someone who studied for a lifetime, maybe could make you drop just by laying a hand on you, but this is just one small, unproven, almost silly part of the internal arts.

 

If you really learn what the internal/soft arts are, and talk in depth with any old, deep, intelligent master of a hard/external art, you'll find that they've taken their art to an internal place. Same with any master of anything. They aren't talking physical technique so much anymore. They're talking about what feeling they have, what's " going on" inside them, rather than what they're externally doing.

 

The sooner people stop thinking of chi as some otherworldly, mystical thing, and more as the basic energy it is, the sooner they'll understand more of this. All external arts have internal aspects to them, and all internal arts have external aspects. Xing yi is an especially external internal art.

 

A lot of the issue is that because of the time commitment, you just don't see a lot of really accomplished internal arts people. And a lot of them aren't getting into street brawls : ) most of what I've seen of the internal arts, you can't just go around doing to people. A boxer can punch somebody a bunch of times and hurt them. But the things my teacher has shown me, when I learn the application of a movement I've been working on...I mean it's just brutal. There are just a lot of things you can't "spar" with, they aren't meant for sport.

 

Having said all that, if you just want to kick butt, take some real self defense, hard/external style classes. The amount of time and effort to get there with an internal art isn't probably worth it in today's world. I do bagua and taiji because I love the deep, meditative, energy work side of it. I'll leave the butt kicking to others.

 

I'm well aware of all this but where you say all external has an internal element and vice versa is the main point i am making. You don't train internally if your main goal is to hurt somebody externally. You train externally and the internal will naturally grow in a way that is going to best benefit that external training. If you punch a bag 1000 times a day in the same way for 3 years your punch is going to be very fierce. You can't punch 1000 times a day and not develop that punch internally, unless you are not being aware of what you are doing and thinking about the simpsons or something. You don't need to specifically train internal for the benefit of external. Internal specific training is for health reasons, healing or if you want to try to effect somebody else internally.

Surely you would of heard the story about the guy who tried for many years to pull out a tree and finally he pulled it out! That shows external and internal in perfect balance.

 

With tai chi (and i guess bagua but i haven't done it) you need to take a chance. You need to put yourself out for a move and have faith that it will work. The better you are at it the more likely it will work but there is still a chance it won't work out right and you will get hammered. Boxing is more calculated, planned and strategy. In my opinion the chance you need to take with tai chi can pay off nearly 100% of the time if you use it sparingly, when you really need to, and when you really need to save your arse. The 'light' or 'god' that you cultivate within yourself will protect you when you really need it. Meanwhile, If you just use it in the ring fighting guy after guy your luck will run out and your gunna end up getting smashed, it's not for that. Thats why boxers box, and tai chi guys pull uncanny stuff out of their arse and can woop even the meanest boxers. But not time after time the luck runs out. Thats why the soft overcomes the hard, but the hard can beat the soft. I believe from all the internal stuff i've done, i can be free from harm even without any martial training so long as i follow the light, (it sounds like a christian thing even though i'm not) but it will deliver me from evil in any time of need. Whether the fight is prevented by my or anybody else or the guy just simply slips over, it works in funny ways. If i tempt it though, well i guess i was asking for a whooping!

 

I guess the best thing i would like to say is that even though i cultivate internally daily (mainly because i enjoy it), it really is not necessary. It all does it on it's own, and if you want to be aware of it you can be, then you can see it doing it's self on it's own. What really is of the most benefit is developing your connection to your intuition, then you get the best result without even knowing why. That is how you become the master effortlessly. That should be the real goal. I just cultivate so i can understand it, but it's not necessary.

[i am]

I mostly agree with what your saying. Except I think we're all using slightly different definitions of internal. The internal arts are complete in themselves. They have punches, kicks etc. Thats why I was using the distinction of hard/soft. The soft arts train the internal much more than the hard arts, but they are still deadly martial arts. They aren't yoga (as I know you know). They just focus more on energy and softness than the external arts. They are MARTIAL arts. They aren't just qigong.

 

Read bk frantzis "the power of internal martial arts" if you want to hear his accounts of how bad a**, and downright vicious and brutal a lot of the internal arts are. Some of it gets a little mystical, but most of it is pretty down to earth.

 

Still, I think we're about 90% in agreement : )

 

I go back & forth as to whether I'm interested in sparring. I do like just some free form wrestling, and every now and then my teacher will let me practice throws on him. It's just that if he lets me, I have to let him...: )

 

It's true that internal arts were often used to build up a weak body. But the traing I've done is not for the weak! I think to just say that's what they're for is inaccurate. They ARE an art unto themselves, not a stepping stone into hard arts. You could say its the other way around...but I think we're all more or less on the same page.

[i am]

I just noticed the Bagua thread. Good stuff. It is important to remember that it came into popularity for body guards, and for fighting multiple opponents at one time.

 

The form is of course not a fight, it's just a set of movements to train the different applications, but I trained under this guy for a very short time while I was in China. I would NOT try to western box him. Not sure how you'd get in there...

 

He or whoever posts videos of him seems to like the dramatic music...

 

 

What looks "flashy" or "fancy" is smooth stuff that either gets you inside, right up against someone, or is a throw or grab. It looks beautiful, but believe me, it's not flash, it's some very effective stuff. There's a lot of twisting, and the motions are both because of the multiple opponent applications, and a way of sneaking out of joint locks and holds, something with very real life application. Bagua people have a knack of slipping out of wrestling and joint lock tricks that a lot of other people have trained.

Edited September 14, 2012 by i am

[ChiDragon]

"The internal arts are complete in themselves."

 

Based on the above statement, internal means exactly what it says INTERNAL. So, what does Internal involve...???

 

To the best of my knowledge, it has to do everything internally which involves the mind and the inner strength of the human body. One wants to have the greatest impact when strike. One should be able to exert any amount of force at will. Thus that is where the mind comes in. Mentally, one should be able to control the body parts to move in any direction at any speed and the magnitude in strength.

 

So, Chi Kung was considered to the the ultimate method for the internal art. Chi Kung involves in learning to breathing to give the body more energy to increase the inner strength. It give more mental power to manipulate the internal organs to perform their functions to the maximum capacity.

 

So far, no external arts have been mentioned here. Now is to say that the external arts would be the punches and kicks, etc. Thus it is a complete different art than the internal art. Would you say...???

[i am]

I hate to do it, but this is actually a pretty good description... http://en.wikipedia....t_(martial_arts)

 

I've actually seen pretty lively debate on this even on a Qigong, Internal Martial Arts forum, so I don't think there's much point in really getting in a deep debate about the difference between the two. I'm not qualified to answer that question. I can just offer my small understanding.

Edited September 14, 2012 by i am

[lifeforce]

Check out this mega-thread: http://thetaobums.com/topic/7466-the-power-of-internal-martial-arts/page__hl__%2Bpower+%2Binternal+%2Barts

[i am]

Interesting stuff. Not enough time to get through it all...but it looks like it starts falling apart a bit after page 6 anyways.

 

ChiDragon, I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say there. Could you try again?

[eye_of_the_storm]

I personally really wouldn't make a distinction between external and internal - especially on this forum

 

You folks know where its at

 

Edited September 16, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[ChiDragon]

Is this a threat..........??????

Edited September 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[eye_of_the_storm]

ahahaha what?

 

NO! the very opposite my friend, truly.

 

...read it for what it is... again I speak plainly

 

The Image of the fire wolf / energetic form...

 

was a play at the internal and external being one thing

Edited September 16, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[Protector]

Argue more, these are my favorite threads

[zerostao]

i will give an example:

the boxer known as jack dempsey certainly displayed an internal game.

did he get it from internal training or did he get it from external practices?

that idk. but it is obvious he was issuing internal force with his punches

 

ed> there was alot of coiling /un-coiling and yin/yang going on with dempsey

Edited September 17, 2012 by zerostao

[zerostao]

Is this a threat..........??????

relax relax

you are still practicing and not playing?