Void

[Guest RBSA]

I want to discuss about Void . I got some experiences at the end of 2009 winter about void . I was seeing void . Things were coming from void and were going back . From this i could work with my mind at demolishing some things . I then noticed that between two opposite things there is void . When you amalgamate two opposite things then void comes out from that . These were all experiences and not information i received .

[Wayfarer]

Thanks for that. Just a thought - if there is no self, how much less so is there other than self?

[Jeff]

Selected part of the Heart Sutra...

 

"O Sariputra! Form does not differ from the void, and the void does not differ from the form. Form is the void, and the void is form. The same is true for feelings, conceptions, impulses and consciousness.

 

O Sariputra, the characteristics of the void is not created, not annihilated, not impure, not pure, not increasing, not decreasing.

 

Therefore, in the void there are no forms and no feelings, conceptions, impulses and no consciousness: there is no eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind; there is no form, sound, smell, taste, touch or idea; no eye elements, until we come to no elements of consciousness; no ignorance and also no ending of ignorance, until we come to no old age and death; and no ending of old age and death.

 

[GrandmasterP]

There's nothing to it.

[Guest RBSA]

Then Void must have been it . It ' s because lots of forms were appearing to me too . Or could i have been wrong ?

 

Another thing then was that i was not sleeping . Now even if philosophy of my territory doesn ' t agree to such conceptions as void i treasure those experiences .

[Jeff]

From chapter 52 of the TTC (Shamen Flowing Hands Version)...

 

 

In silence and in the void the Dao formed Heaven and Earth. The Ten Thousand Things are formed by it.

 

[rene]

From Ch 25 (not 52) of The Laozi (Feng translation)

 

Twenty-five

Something mysteriously formed,

Born before heaven and Earth.

In the silence and the void,

Standing alone and unchanging,

Ever present and in motion.

Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.

I do not know its name

Call it Tao.

 

Since so much of Flowing Hand's verson uses the word patterns, choices and language of Feng's, and since Flowing Hand's attributes his version as transmitted from LiErh (Laozi) directly to himself, I tend to lean a little more towards the idea that Feng's translation captures the intent of Laozi rather well. FWIW.

 

****

 

RBSA - I think more than a few people have experienced what you've described. Everyone who tries to wrap words around it can only use the language of their own traditions/experiences. We can kinda describe it, like you tried to kinda describe it, but words alone are insufficient to convey... especially to those who have no personal experience of this. Still fun to try describing though, imo. Nice thread.

 

warm regards

[GrandmasterP]

Quite so. You can certainly describe visions, and those would be good to share. But how and where you were, how

you felt, what 'you' experienced. Those are no more communicable than is the taste of the word 'salt' via the spoken or written word.

 

.

[Wayfarer]

sorry double posted by mistake ;o)

Edited September 11, 2012 by Wayfarer

[Wayfarer]

Then Void must have been it . It ' s because lots of forms were appearing to me too . Or could i have been wrong ?

 

Another thing then was that i was not sleeping . Now even if philosophy of my territory doesn ' t agree to such conceptions as void i treasure those experiences .

 

Hello again RBSA - it might help to think of the world as being 'void of distinctions'. There isn't a void as such - all there is, is what you see around you but that 'something' is void of a label or a description. So, following your initial thread and selecting two opposites - Good and Bad, large and small, black and white - whichever you prefer...there is nothing between them - and I don't mean there is 'Nothing' between them (! - damn words) if for a moment we just call the Void "it" then black is it, white is it, and anything in between is it. *It, it, it* So nothing comes or goes. Nothing arrives or leaves. Nothing draws near or becomes more distant. What you wish to 'demolish' is it and after you have demolished it, it is still it.

 

So to follow your own line of thinking and experiences you may wish to develop them further by investigating "what is this 'void' that comes before me?" and "what is this object/concept that is the opposite of another?", then "what is this that thinks, that treasures?" - it all leads one way my friend; to a finding of how things is.

 

Best of luck, Heath

[Guest RBSA]

Look , it also interests me the genesis of world . When you said in the TTC

 

Something mysteriously formed,

Born before heaven and Earth.

 

i cannot help it from correlating this to genesis from the Bible . Now don ' t rush in removing my head so fast , because it is the religious book of my country . In this book in the beginning it is said

 

In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

 

. Now , isn ' t logical to correlate Tao to God somehow ? Pay attention that Bible is the most read book in this world . Void is another term stated in the Genesis , first book of Bible . But i will let you pay attention to it according to your interest .

 

In the moment i tried to correlate void to God i noticed i lost my will . I was like a spit . It is because i thought and tried my consciousness to believe that void is God . It is said God cannot be seen . Also void is hard to see , it is somehow superficially noticed . Once again void could be god but void does not have will . Or it has ? Maybe throwing things from one part to another , ejaculating these thoughts . Maybe all this world is a huge pornography . I mean i watched pornography and they are all yelling about god . It is just a thought . A zen thought .

 

So is void God ?

 

Please be short as i wasn ' t .

[Guest RBSA]

Can i tag this topic as being 18 + somehow ?

[Guest RBSA]

,,And the earth was void and empty, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the spirit of God moved over the waters.'' Genesis 1,2

 

See ? Void and empty .

 

I try to corelate more sacred books because we can find reality .

[Jeff]

Look , it also interests me the genesis of world . When you said in the TTC

 

Something mysteriously formed,

Born before heaven and Earth.

 

i cannot help it from correlating this to genesis from the Bible . Now don ' t rush in removing my head so fast , because it is the religious book of my country . In this book in the beginning it is said

 

In the beginning God created heaven, and earth.

 

. Now , isn ' t logical to correlate Tao to God somehow ? Pay attention that Bible is the most read book in this world . Void is another term stated in the Genesis , first book of Bible . But i will let you pay attention to it according to your interest .

 

In the moment i tried to correlate void to God i noticed i lost my will . I was like a spit . It is because i thought and tried my consciousness to believe that void is God . It is said God cannot be seen . Also void is hard to see , it is somehow superficially noticed . Once again void could be god but void does not have will . Or it has ? Maybe throwing things from one part to another , ejaculating these thoughts . Maybe all this world is a huge pornography . I mean i watched pornography and they are all yelling about god . It is just a thought . A zen thought .

 

So is void God ?

 

Please be short as i wasn ' t .

 

Depending on how you define "God", there is a direct correlation. On the "void" being God, look at the words...

 

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:1, 2 KJV)

 

In Genesis, the void is defined as separate from the "Spirit". In the TTC, the first separation is the the void & silence.

 

[flowing hands]

From Ch 25 (not 52) of The Laozi (Feng translation)

 

Twenty-five

Something mysteriously formed,

Born before heaven and Earth.

In the silence and the void,

Standing alone and unchanging,

Ever present and in motion.

Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things.

I do not know its name

Call it Tao.

 

Since so much of Flowing Hand's verson uses the word patterns, choices and language of Feng's, and since Flowing Hand's attributes his version as transmitted from LiErh (Laozi) directly to himself, I tend to lean a little more towards the idea that Feng's translation captures the intent of Laozi rather well. FWIW.

 

****

 

RBSA - I think more than a few people have experienced what you've described. Everyone who tries to wrap words around it can only use the language of their own traditions/experiences. We can kinda describe it, like you tried to kinda describe it, but words alone are insufficient to convey... especially to those who have no personal experience of this. Still fun to try describing though, imo. Nice thread.

 

warm regards

 

I'm surprised that you are the only person so far to have noticed that!!

 

Back in 1986 when Li Erh taught me his true teachings he asked me to look at various translations and how various things were expressed in English. My transmission is especially for the English speaking world. So I got hold of various translations and when he came to me he rejected many as being nonsense, mechanical and very poor translations and some he said were simple and precise and near to how he would express each chapter in English. Some of Feng's chapters expressed the precise meaning and expression that he wanted with changes of emphasis and meaning needed. So some of Feng's way of expression and meaning was completely right in parts of the chapters. But alot of the meaning and emphasis was also wrong. I remember Li Erh saying to me alot of this does not make sense, if the translator had any idea about the Dao, why would they write it like this?

 

I remember him seeing D.C Lau's version and saying 'no wonder people have difficulty in understanding what I wrote! It completely obscures the whole point and meaning'. (Sorry DC Lau if your reading this!)

 

So this is why I keep emphasizing that what Li Erh gave to me is the best English version, conveying the whole meaning so that we as western people can get our brains around the ideas and concepts expressed in Li Erh's writings. For he has looked at so many translations in English and picked the best expressions and then added completely new meanings and emphasis. Knowing what I know, I never bother to look else where. If you want to find wisdom, self awareness and enlightenment its all in there, perfectly described and expressed for us western folk.

 

I think there are folk out there who have realized the difference in what Li Erh taught me over other translations. Some very important points that are completely missing in other tranlaltions.

[Wayfarer]

Hello again RBSA hope you don't mind me keep responding - interesting conversation.

 

Tao, God, Buddha-Nature, True-Self, Void, Emptiness - different names for the same thing. What Buddha noticed in the Morning Star is the same thing Jesus found in the sky. The True-Self Boddhidharma saw in a cave is no different to the Christ Mary Magdalene witnessed in a cave after the crucifixion. What Kashyapa noticed in the flower is the same thing Moses saw alight in a bush. Forget the names, the different religious books and who said what was created in so many days...Taoism, Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism come from the same point - they may have 'become' different but their root is the same as it stems from an attempt to describe a single Oneness that is expressed all around and within us but is rarely noticed.

 

God did not create the earth and heaven. Earth, heaven and God are not different they are not three separate things. The Tao did not create Two. Two does not exist. For God to create the earth is to imply that the earth is somehow separate from God, that a being has created a planet and may occasionally watch over it. These thoughts take people away from the Truth. When Jesus said "I am the light" he did not mean that only he was the son of God but that everything is the son of God; the Father and the Son are not separate.

 

If you look at a tree it will show you something, if you observe a cloud you might begin to notice that same thing, then if you look to your self you will find it there also. Does it not make sense that if all is One, that if the things you see around you are not a 'they' but an 'it' that the quality of that 'itness' can potentially be noticed everywhere you look?

 

Separation only occurs in false thinking and Wrong View (opposite of Buddhist Right View). Like the disciples asked Jesus "where must we stand to enter the Kingdom of the Father" and he casually said "right here". Does this not tell you that heaven, the place of God is right where you already are? When Jesus said "split open a piece of wood and find me there" does this not mean that the 'me' he refers to is the One that brings all things together. Does the word Holy not come from the old Greek "Holos" meaning to "make one"? Why would the word Holy be used to describe the Divine when the word means to make things one, if the Sacred is separate from us?

 

As the Song of Trusting the Heart says, its our dualistic thinking that takes us away from the Truth. Whenever we think, is the Void God, or is Tao different than God, is heaven other than earth, is black different than white - we have duality. We must trust that these old masters from different religions, different eras and parts of the world who all say the same have Noticed something that is worth noticing. The starting point of that journey is to question where you see duality in your thinking and in the world around you.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Heath

Edited September 12, 2012 by Wayfarer