JustARandomPanda Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) I was just advised on Amazon to avoid Lama Tsongkhapa. Especially something about his 7 point chariot analysis. I seem to remember GoldisHeavy also advising people to steer clear of Tsongkhapa. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with the Tsongkhapa books and his 7 point chariot explanation? Edit: part of me is suspicious this advice was due to somebody believing their "traditional lineage" of Buddhism is better than other traditions of Buddhism. However..I don't remember GiH ever giving allegiance to one brand of Buddhism over any other either and yet I seem to recall he also warned people away from Tsongkhapa's works. Edited September 10, 2012 by SereneBlue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted September 10, 2012 I have only heard good things about him from advanced practitioners who I trust, infact some say that he is one of the very few people who really gets it and without him Tibetan Buddhism would have crumbled a long time ago. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted September 10, 2012 Do you mean Tsongkhapa the 14th Century Tibetan founder of the Gelugpa sect (of which the Dalai Lama is currently the head)? If so I see no reason to avoid his teachings if you are interested in Monastic Buddhism. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 10, 2012 Don't go there buddy. It's a snake pit. Warring Buddhists all over the place. Anyone venerating Dorje Shugdan or connected with the New Kadampa line is very much out of favour with the Dalai Lama supporting cohorts. One 'side' does not have a good word for anyone on the 'other side'. It's all very sad. The big BuddhistDharma Wheel forum has banned all discussion so vehement do parties become. All best left well alone. Read what suits you and to heck with the politics. HTH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 10, 2012 Poor edit above, sorry... Along with Dorje Shugdan the 'Dharma protector'/ cum 'demi God - Je Tsongkhapa is one of the New Kadampa 'celebs' hence perhaps the bad mouthing on Amazon. Anything the New Kadampa favours becomes de facto 'bad' in the eyes of those who oppose them. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jetsun Posted September 10, 2012 I thought the Shugden venerate Tsongkhapa as well as the lineage of the Dalai Lama? Both claim to protect his teachings I think Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) I think there may be some confusion here. Tsongkhapa's school of Buddhism in 14th Century was sometimes called the New Kadampa because it was a revival of the monastic tradition founded by Atisha in 10th Century and this was called the Kadampa. However there is also a modern tradition which also styles itself as the New Kadampa and venerates Tsongkhapa. They also practice the controversial Dorje Shugden sadhana which the Dalai Lama has deemed unhelpful or perhaps even harmful. Schisms in Tibetan Buddhism are not unusual ... take for example the Karmapa controversy. If in doubt don't go there !!! But don't throw baby out with the bathwater .... etc. It's a good reminder that you have to think for yourself. Even if you follow or venerate a teacher you still have to think for yourself. Edited September 10, 2012 by Apech bad typing 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted September 10, 2012 Do you mean Tsongkhapa the 14th Century Tibetan founder of the Gelugpa sect (of which the Dalai Lama is currently the head)? If so I see no reason to avoid his teachings if you are interested in Monastic Buddhism. Yes. I was advised to stay away from reading the founder of the Gelugpa sect's works. Apparently he didn't understand 2 fold emptiness correctly and so taught it wrong. Or so the guy at Amazon seemed to be implying. He did know a boat load about Buddhism judging from his posts though so that's part of what has me wondering if he was correct. But yes, he was referring to the founder of the Dalai Lama's lineage. I was advised to read this book instead of Tsongkhapa's works. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted September 10, 2012 P.S. The guy at Amazon is quite...um...feisty in his arguments with others on what is or is not correct meditative practice. In fact...I found him due to Tibetan Ice's posts on an AYP book. Oh..and he had some less than kind words for Thusness to boot. Said Thusness makes Yogani look great in comparison. Makes me wonder what Xabir would've said to him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted September 10, 2012 I was just advised on Amazon to avoid Lama Tsongkhapa. Especially something about his 7 point chariot analysis. I seem to remember GoldisHeavy also advising people to steer clear of Tsongkhapa. Can someone explain to me what is so wrong with the Tsongkhapa books and his 7 point chariot explanation? Edit: part of me is suspicious this advice was due to somebody believing their "traditional lineage" of Buddhism is better than other traditions of Buddhism. However..I don't remember GiH ever giving allegiance to one brand of Buddhism over any other either and yet I seem to recall he also warned people away from Tsongkhapa's works. Tsongkhapa is highly regarded as a scholar-yogi because he systematized and synthesized all views of sutra and tantra into one system. Every tradition has their highly regarded scholar yogis who created syntheses of the various strands of sutra and tantra. For example Gelugpas have Tsongkhapa, Sakyapas have Gorampa, Kagyupas have the Karmapas, Nyingmapas have Longchenpa. So one issuse is that Tsongkahap has many detractors: other scholar yogis and their followers don't think his conclusions or his synthesis are correct. In modern times, even a Geulg scholar, the multitalented Gendun Chopel, criticised Tsongkhapa's view. The other issue is that from a Rime viewpoint, any of these teachers' material may be skillful for some, and not for others. But the Tshonkhapa and his followers have, to a large extent, not presented themselves this way, but rather as the best, supreme understanding of sutra and tantra. Scholastic Debate is heavily emphasized in Gelug monasteries; monks are trained in why they are right and everyone else is wrong. If they allow that it may be skillful for a person to follow something else, it is understood that that is because that person is of inferior capacity. That is of course, as long as you weren't too doctrinally incorrect. If you were they just might ban your writings. Now of course, this produces the reaction that other sects will present their view as better and Tsongkhapa's view as inferior, as you have experienced. For me personally, it's mainly the air of superiority, self-importance, and criticising other traditions that bugs me about the Gelug tradition. For a good example of this: infact some say that he is one of the very few people who really gets it and without him Tibetan Buddhism would have crumbled a long time ago. Really gets what? There are a lot of sectarian polemics in Tibetan Buddhism, and Gelugpas are especially known for this. The idea that the traditions of Milarepa, or of Padmasambhava, or Sakya Pandita would have died out without Tsongkapaha and his Gelug sect just seems like so much polemics to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) I was advised to read this book instead of Tsongkhapa's works. You were reading the Sandhinirmocana Sutra right? The author of the above work has a book out on the Third Karmapa's synthesis of second and third turning teachings that looks really good to me: http://www.amazon.co.../dp/1559393181/ Edited September 27, 2012 by Creation Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) It's like kids arguing and shouting in a playground with some of those Tibetans, and the western converts to it are often the worst offenders. By and large the leathery little old ladies in the temples who make the tea and actually run the show don't give a toss. Mainly down to regional dialect differences along with geography is Tibetan sectarianism. The schools reflect geographical areas that were isolated one from another. We have a similar schism where I come from between people from Lancashire and those from Yorkshire. Two counties separated by a range of hills impassable in winter in ancient times Old suspicions. Those filter out into the Buddhism, then you add 'lineage envy' with its 'My Lama is better than yours' infantile rhetoric and the rest is history. Thank goodness we don't see much of that nonsene in Taoism. Edited September 10, 2012 by GrandmasterP 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted September 10, 2012 Sereneblue, It depends mostly on what you want to study. If you are not aligned to any particular Buddhist school then read generalist books rather than old texts from the middle ages (if you see what I mean). All the traditions are very strong in themselves and have their strengths. Such as the Karma Kagyu are known as the practice lineage and so on. If you really want to study any tradition deeply then to be honest you need a lama to give the instructions. If you want to just understand the basic principles then pick a generalist book. PS. I kind of agree about Tsongkhapa in that if you want to study non-dual madyhamaka the he is probably not your guy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Apech Posted September 10, 2012 ... Thank goodness we don't see much of that nonsene in Taoism. What???? Are you kidding? No religion, teaching, practice is free from this stuff. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted September 10, 2012 thanks creation, i found your explanations very helpful i like rime approach, sectarianism breeds prejudice on a subtle level. All lineages and branches and schools have SOMEthing to offer or they would be dust before now methinks. some days i think that one can't cross a river with their feet in two different boats, and some days i think that a comparison of different paths will yield something beyond the limitations of those paths, the root, which in tantric buddhism tends to be the direct experience of nowness, beyond mentalism and emotions about it. That seems to be the moon that all the fingers are pointing at, the light reflected in all the various bowls of water called sects. Once an aspirant gets past their own mind and emotions, do they really care which sect is entrenched in politics and who taught emptiness as mind and who taught it as matter or any of the million distinctions you can make. Urk its a headache for monks and a laughing stock for yogis and siddhas pack up my loincloths baby we're heading for the wilds Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pero Posted September 10, 2012 Yes. I was advised to stay away from reading the founder of the Gelugpa sect's works. Apparently he didn't understand 2 fold emptiness correctly and so taught it wrong. Or so the guy at Amazon seemed to be implying. He did know a boat load about Buddhism judging from his posts though so that's part of what has me wondering if he was correct. But yes, he was referring to the founder of the Dalai Lama's lineage. I was advised to read this book instead of Tsongkhapa's works. LOL, it's probably Alwayson. It's probably better if you just ignore him. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) You were reading the Sandhinirmocana Sutra right? The author of the above work has a book out on the Third Karmapa's synthesis of second and third turning teachings that looks really good to me: http://www.amazon.co.../dp/1559393181/ I am not familiar with that Sutra. In fact...I've never heard of it until this thread. I've only read a handful of sutras. Some of the Shurangama sutra, all of the Lotus Sutra and Heart Sutra. Also bits of Sutra from In the Buddha's Words - which is an anthology of selected Sutras from the Pali Cannon. *********** Sereneblue, It depends mostly on what you want to study. If you are not aligned to any particular Buddhist school then read generalist books rather than old texts from the middle ages (if you see what I mean). All the traditions are very strong in themselves and have their strengths. Such as the Karma Kagyu are known as the practice lineage and so on. If you really want to study any tradition deeply then to be honest you need a lama to give the instructions. If you want to just understand the basic principles then pick a generalist book. PS. I kind of agree about Tsongkhapa in that if you want to study non-dual madyhamaka the he is probably not your guy. My main thing right now is trying to get meditation practice solid (along with Taoist inner alchemy but that's a separate category). Some of the symptoms I experience seem to be similar to what Tibetan Ice insists is cat napping. Except he makes it sound like people are deliberately not being rigorous enough in their meditation and thus falling into a cat nap dream state. That isn't what happens with me. I get swept up in the dream even despite repeated attempts to sustain focus on my lower dantien. If I *could* stop the 'entering the dream sweep' I *would*. It's the fact that I do not seem to have any control over this that ticks me off so much that I've been looking around to see wtf I'm doing wrong with my meditation practice. ****************** Right now I'm reading Alan Wallace's The Attention Revolution in the hopes of seeing where I'm making mistakes in my meditation practice. And I get ticked off at the guys who say "you're trying is what's messing you up". To which my reply is - if you, Mr Don't Try Because You're Already Enlightened - are already so Awakened then quit posting on TTB, and quit giving advice to people to "quit trying". Edited September 10, 2012 by SereneBlue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Creation Posted September 10, 2012 I am not familiar with that Sutra. In fact...I've never heard of it until this thread. I've only read a handful of sutras. Some of the Shurangama sutra, all of the Lotus Sutra and Heart Sutra. Also bits of Sutra from In the Buddha's Words - which is an anthology of selected Sutras from the Pali Cannon. Now that I checked, you said you were going to read it, but now you've never heard of it? I just recently was lucky enough to acquire this book. I won't have the chance to read it as I'm just getting started with Red Pine's translation of the Lankavantara Sutra. But after that I'll read through the anthology. And after THAT will be Scripture on the Explication of Underlying Meaning The Samdhinirmocana Sutra (Scripture on the Explication of Underlying Meaning) is really excellent. I can't recommend that one enough. The Numata Center version in the link above is the best translation so far. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted September 10, 2012 Mantra can be a shamatha practice btw. I believe Tibetan Buddhists use mantras to purify karma and create fertile soil for the practice to blossom. In Sikhism mantra practice can be the whole path with "Wa he gu ru", navel heart throat and 3rd eye. The descriptions of the results of this practice initiated by a Guru sound very similar to the results of Tibetan Buddhism and even Taoist Alchemy. So it definitely goes far beyond just quieting your mind. Personally ive found mantra very reliable in going into Jhanas, just repeat sincerely and with devotion. No distractions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustARandomPanda Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) Now that I checked, you said you were going to read it, but now you've never heard of it? If I said I did then it is likely on my list of sutras to read. Which admittedly is quite long. Sitting on my shelf - on my To Be Read list are The Diamond Sutra and Bramajala Net Sutra. I intend to get every one of the Discourses of the Buddha books - including the one to be released this fall - the Numerical Discourses - as well as likely some from Conza (Perfection of Wisdom sutras). Edit: Ah! Forgot about that! Yes, I have the Explication of Underlying Meaning. I'm in the middle of it and it's Great!!! I did not recognize the name you gave as my copy doesn't call it that. I also have The Summary of the Great Vehicle and Lankavantara. I started Lanka but got distracted. I need to get back to it. Gah... I forgot about those. Damn...my memory these days really sucks. Enough so that people around me notice it too. Edited September 10, 2012 by SereneBlue Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted September 10, 2012 In Sikhism mantra practice can be the whole path with "Wa he gu ru", navel heart throat and 3rd eye. The descriptions of the results of this practice initiated by a Guru sound very similar to the results of Tibetan Buddhism and even Taoist Alchemy. sounds like om namah shivaya om -ajna na -root mah -sacral shi -navel va -heart ya -throat it tends to blast energy through the ida pingala and sushumna and generate the force to push through obstructions or maybe thats just me lol Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ish Posted September 10, 2012 (edited) sounds like om namah shivaya om -ajna na -root mah -sacral shi -navel va -heart ya -throat it tends to blast energy through the ida pingala and sushumna and generate the force to push through obstructions or maybe thats just me lol Yeah this book mentions the importance of staying morally perfect and in the central channel once the light from the practice becomes very powerful. This is so you can go through the crown chakra and achieve the spiritual aim as opposed to getting stuck in ida or pingala which can lead to various siddhis but is not the real path. The Sikh practice would have a big influence from Yoga so they would be very similar. Edit: http://www.boss-uk.org/articles/pdf/TheSocietyofSaintsv3.pdf Skip to page 12 in the book if youre interested, theres a good description of this path there. Edited September 10, 2012 by Ish Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
konchog uma Posted September 10, 2012 cool stuff, i like the four ways of saying mantra but didn't read a whole lot of that file cause time is short thanks for sharing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GrandmasterP Posted September 10, 2012 The Pure Land Buddhists are very big on chanting. Ultimately whatever gets you there is what gets you there. There's little or no magic in it. Tibetan draws western converts especially men. Possibly because there' such a lot of kit to buy. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
forestofclarity Posted September 10, 2012 Lama Tsongkapa may be hazardous to one's ego. Guy Newland's Introduction to Emptiness was a watershed for me. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
