anapanasati success thanks to Ajahn Brahm's teachings

[konchog uma]

i got up at 4:15 today and started to meditate, using the anapanasati teachings of Ajahn Brahm as i have been working with from his book Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond. I am just writing to report that the book is an excellent guide, and that i am achieving success in deeper states by practicing from it. I would like to thank Tibetan_Ice again for pointing it out to me, and I would like to thank Ajahn Brahm for writing it (just since its the internet and you never know who's reading this) i have been getting so much out of it.

 

I am halfway through it so i can't say much, but just working with his progression of:

 

breath w mantra (he recommends bud dha on in/out breaths but i use so ham)

breath w silence

stabilizing the "beautiful breath" a rarified soft gentle breath that one achieves in meditation

achieving joy and happiness from resting in the beautiful breath

going beyond even the sense of touch so that the breath becomes a mind object

sitting perfectly still (i don't want to, and nearly can't move after the last stage anyway)

the birth of the nimitta (a light which can act as the gateway to absorption states of jhana/dhyana)

{thats as far as ive gone but its followed by}

being absorbed into the nimitta or allowing the nimitta to absorb one and entering jhana

after leaving jhana, using the conciousness generated to penetrate the mysteries of being

feeling good all day long (ok im just guessing)

 

his guidance has led me to incredible states of stillness, stabilization of slower breathing than i have ever experienced, realizing i have a dying blockage to feeling joy and happiness from the breath, stabilization of incredible stillness when i let the sense of touch fall away and just rest in mind awareness (its like the opposite of kriyas, like i got a shot of some strange drug that won't let me move) just sitting like a mountain.. unbelievable, and just this morning i saw my first nimitta - a fuzzy indigo blob of light that was too dull to really shine but nonetheless was my first foray into nimitta territory.

 

So i want to recommend this book to everyone who is interested in deepening their anapanasati practice or working towards jhana states. I don't usually report meditation breakthroughs here, but this one came so easily from Ajahn Brahm's wonderful instructions, and is so profound, that i want to share it so that others experience this too! I will say i have almost 20 years of meditation experience to work with, and i'm not sure that everyone will have nimitta's halfway through the book so i don't want to give anyone distorted or false hope, if that needs to be said. But even if it takes you 20 years to accomplish (it won't.) it will be worth it.

 

After a 2 hour sit this morning i am still full of bliss, tranquility, and compassion for idiot drivers and people downtown, and everyone for that matter. Things that would have shaken me from my center have happened to me today and it didn't even phase me.. I welcomed the opportunity to practice patience, and tried to do nice things for those who might have otherwise offended me!

 

amazing

[konchog uma]

the nimitta grew a lttle bit and came towards me and i got a little whiff of what was coming (trance absorption) and i got really shaken, and realized how much i have been holding on to technique and to my mind itself..

 

i kept saying "i give myself to this" until i kind of calmed down but by then i had lost the nimitta

 

it did come back stronger and i got scared of letting go again... whew!

 

a totally new dimension to my meditation... truly a blessing

[Aetherous]

The book is great....although at least personally, it's been frustrating. I got to the nimitta as well (which I think is sky eye in Taoism)...but at that point, kundalini began to arise really haphazardly for me. You know, like flash of golden white light, nothing else can be paid attention to for a brief time, intense awareness. I hope that isn't jhana...not peaceful at all! I had to stop anapanasati altogether, because it was simply ravaging my body.

[Aetherous]

Brahm does say that the first three steps are incredibly important, as a foundation. Perhaps I moved forward too quickly, without the necessary silence.

[konchog uma]

i dunno ts, i really don't know enough about it to speculate.

 

i do sit shamatha/vispassana every day at least 20 minutes to half an hour, and am pretty good at getting my mind to quiet down from its usual state of thinking, although pretty far from liberated lol. My nimitta jumped around a bit at first, which Brahm says is a sign that the mind needs more stillness and quiet. So i got that too, moving ahead to that point without really having what i needed in place. And it was dull, which he says is because my joy/happiness wasn't full and rich enough. So i still have some work to do with it...

[Tibetan_Ice]

i got up at 4:15 today and started to meditate, using the anapanasati teachings of Ajahn Brahm as i have been working with from his book Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond. I am just writing to report that the book is an excellent guide, and that i am achieving success in deeper states by practicing from it. I would like to thank Tibetan_Ice again for pointing it out to me, and I would like to thank Ajahn Brahm for writing it (just since its the internet and you never know who's reading this) i have been getting so much out of it.

 

I am halfway through it so i can't say much, but just working with his progression of:

 

breath w mantra (he recommends bud dha on in/out breaths but i use so ham)

breath w silence

stabilizing the "beautiful breath" a rarified soft gentle breath that one achieves in meditation

achieving joy and happiness from resting in the beautiful breath

going beyond even the sense of touch so that the breath becomes a mind object

sitting perfectly still (i don't want to, and nearly can't move after the last stage anyway)

the birth of the nimitta (a light which can act as the gateway to absorption states of jhana/dhyana)

{thats as far as ive gone but its followed by}

being absorbed into the nimitta or allowing the nimitta to absorb one and entering jhana

after leaving jhana, using the conciousness generated to penetrate the mysteries of being

feeling good all day long (ok im just guessing)

 

his guidance has led me to incredible states of stillness, stabilization of slower breathing than i have ever experienced, realizing i have a dying blockage to feeling joy and happiness from the breath, stabilization of incredible stillness when i let the sense of touch fall away and just rest in mind awareness (its like the opposite of kriyas, like i got a shot of some strange drug that won't let me move) just sitting like a mountain.. unbelievable, and just this morning i saw my first nimitta - a fuzzy indigo blob of light that was too dull to really shine but nonetheless was my first foray into nimitta territory.

 

So i want to recommend this book to everyone who is interested in deepening their anapanasati practice or working towards jhana states. I don't usually report meditation breakthroughs here, but this one came so easily from Ajahn Brahm's wonderful instructions, and is so profound, that i want to share it so that others experience this too! I will say i have almost 20 years of meditation experience to work with, and i'm not sure that everyone will have nimitta's halfway through the book so i don't want to give anyone distorted or false hope, if that needs to be said. But even if it takes you 20 years to accomplish (it won't.) it will be worth it.

 

After a 2 hour sit this morning i am still full of bliss, tranquility, and compassion for idiot drivers and people downtown, and everyone for that matter. Things that would have shaken me from my center have happened to me today and it didn't even phase me.. I welcomed the opportunity to practice patience, and tried to do nice things for those who might have otherwise offended me!

 

amazing

 

Hi Anatmava

You're welcome!

It is so wonderful that this is working for you.

 

I have to wonder, because of your description of the color of your nimitta. There is a phenonmenon which occurs when one is fairly relaxed and that is the appearance of purple and green light which appears in pulses. The purple light appears, grows and then disappears, then the green light appears grows larger and then disappears. If you sit and watch calmly, the pattern repeats itself. Although this is an extremely good sign because it indicates that you are very relaxed, it is not a nimitta. It is related to what I believe is the sacral-cranial pulse. The pulse produces pressure on the optic nerves and optical fluid in the eyes and produces those signature colors. A good way to test it out is this. When you see the nimitta, or light, move your eyes's focus to another direction (look to the right). If the purple and green lights move too, then this is not a nimitta.

 

The nimitta is seen through the third eye. It has nothing to do with the physical eyes. Most of the time I will see the purple and green light and that just lets me know I'm getting closer to the relaxed state that produces the nimittas. It also lets me know that my forehead and face are not relaxed enough. So, I put in more attention at relaxing the forehead/face and eyes and go back to watching the breath and letting go on the out-breaths.

 

That said, I have read that nimittas can appear in numerous shapes and forms, some looking like spider webs, cotton balls, even geometric patterns. I have see a moon, spider webs and geometric patterns but mostly the nimitta looks like a very bright star or the end of a lightning bolt. I've also seen bright unworldly blue and red nimittas. They are so beaultiful that you fall in love with them! Sounds kind of crazy doesn't it? Ajahn Brahm does a good job of describing the different kinds of nimittas. And, he is right. The first time you see one you get so excited that it doesn't last very long. And then if you go looking for it, the looking for it prevents you from settling the mind.

 

When I've succeeded in remaining non-reactive and almost ignored the nimittas, they get brighter and more pronounced. Then, when you get a good one, you enter it or it envelops you and then you find yourself in strange new wonderful places or states. Once, after I went through a bright white lightning bolt type of nimitta, when I came back, I looked down at my body and saw (what I believe is the lower tan tien) this long horn-like structure coming out from below my navel. It was bright white light and it sparkled. I started to play with it with my breath, by pushing my abdomen straight out. When I did that, it released a shower of twinkling little stars that came up my front to the top of my head and showered down around me. It was like being in fairy land. Coming back from the jhanas is the best time to do self-inquiry. We are really mysterious wonderful creatures.

 

So, you can see the value in Buddha's instructions of cultivating neither aversion nor grasping.

 

Also, I know Ajahn Brahm says to cultivate the beautiful breath, that there is joy in just breathing. I have tried that but it just doesn't work for me. But it hasn't stopped me from producing nimittas. I just cultivate one-pointed focus, Vitakka and Vicara, (directed attention and sustained attention) on the breath, the breath turns into a mind-object, everything else disappears and then the nimitta appears..

 

Another thing that helped me was when I read that the in-breath is one consciousness, the out-breath is another concsciousness and the one part that sees the nimitta is another consciousness. It is like trying to get all three balanced and operational at the same time..

 

Anyway, I'm very glad that you are succeeding. Good for you!

 

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

The book is great....although at least personally, it's been frustrating. I got to the nimitta as well (which I think is sky eye in Taoism)...but at that point, kundalini began to arise really haphazardly for me. You know, like flash of golden white light, nothing else can be paid attention to for a brief time, intense awareness. I hope that isn't jhana...not peaceful at all! I had to stop anapanasati altogether, because it was simply ravaging my body.

 

Hi Turtle Shell.

 

Yes, that is kundalini. The moment she sees a good strong nimitta, or for that matter, any very bright light in the head, she makes a leap for it. I have experienced this many times. It is so annoying. Once, I just sat down in perfect posture, took one deep breath and notice a perfectly round moon above my forehead. Within two seconds, kundalini woke up and charged right for it. I became very hot, flames were enveloping me and I began sweating profusely. I had to stop. All this happened within 2 minutes. Scary. I thought I was going to instant-combust.

 

After that I did the kundalini meditation found at the crystal links website, took kundalini up to the crown twice and became more familiar with it.

 

The good news is that, after having quit all forms of spinal breathing and bandhas (root lock, perineum lock, sambhavi etc) for a while( over six months), kundalini for the most part lies sleeping now. I can see the nimittas without waking her. But, if I do intense concentration, she always starts to comes back to life. The key is relaxed concentration, simple placing of awareness and working on perfecting that. Then she doesn't bother me.

 

So, it does go away or at least lets me get into the jhanas without disruption now.

 

And yes, "Intense Awareness"!! Vividness! That thing you can cultivate. You got a pretty good taste of it. You hit the jackpot! You'll have to get over it, perhaps work on the sushumna (central channel) and strengthen and purify the path out the top of your head so kundalini can have her voyage and let you get back to exploring the mind (or lack of it).

 

And no, jhana is not like that. The greatest disruption that I've hit so far is what they call the Arising and Passing (if I am correct in my assesment). It is when thoughts quickly arise and then quickly dissolve. It is like watching a thousand tv screens go whizzing past, coming from nowhere, going nowhere.. These are signs of progress but it is kind of disturbing watching that. Aside from that the jhanas are so wonderful, peaceful and energizing that you will be amazed what you have been missing. Just don't get too attached..

 

Good luck to you.

 

TI

[Aetherous]

Aside from that the jhanas are so wonderful, peaceful and energizing that you will be amazed what you have been missing.

 

Ah, good to hear. I will save this practice for later (when I am able to get back into it safely)!

 

Also, my problem may have been that I was practicing anapanasati all day. Damn...now I hear anamatva's doing 30 minute sessions...LOL. What was I thinking?

[Aetherous]

There is a phenonmenon which occurs when one is fairly relaxed and that is the appearance of purple and green light which appears in pulses. The purple light appears, grows and then disappears, then the green light appears grows larger and then disappears. If you sit and watch calmly, the pattern repeats itself. Although this is an extremely good sign because it indicates that you are very relaxed, it is not a nimitta. It is related to what I believe is the sacral-cranial pulse. The pulse produces pressure on the optic nerves and optical fluid in the eyes and produces those signature colors. A good way to test it out is this. When you see the nimitta, or light, move your eyes's focus to another direction (look to the right). If the purple and green lights move too, then this is not a nimitta.

 

Also, good call. And nice to map things out and understand what the growing/vanishing/pulsating colors could be...your idea of it seems correct.

[konchog uma]

I have to wonder, because of your description of the color of your nimitta. There is a phenonmenon which occurs when one is fairly relaxed and that is the appearance of purple and green light which appears in pulses. The purple light appears, grows and then disappears, then the green light appears grows larger and then disappears. If you sit and watch calmly, the pattern repeats itself. Although this is an extremely good sign because it indicates that you are very relaxed, it is not a nimitta. It is related to what I believe is the sacral-cranial pulse. The pulse produces pressure on the optic nerves and optical fluid in the eyes and produces those signature colors. A good way to test it out is this. When you see the nimitta, or light, move your eyes's focus to another direction (look to the right). If the purple and green lights move too, then this is not a nimitta.

 

interesting info TI, i will be aware of that in my practice. Thank you!

 

Another thing that helped me was when I read that the in-breath is one consciousness, the out-breath is another concsciousness and the one part that sees the nimitta is another consciousness. It is like trying to get all three balanced and operational at the same time..

 

i don't think he's mentioned that yet, where i am in the book.

 

Anyway, I'm very glad that you are succeeding. Good for you!

 

thanks much! peace

[Tibetan_Ice]

Tibetan_Ice, on 10 September 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

 

Another thing that helped me was when I read that the in-breath is one consciousness, the out-breath is another concsciousness and the one part that sees the nimitta is another consciousness. It is like trying to get all three balanced and operational at the same time..

 

i don't think he's mentioned that yet, where i am in the book.

 

 

Hi Anamatva

No, that is not Ajahn Brahm, that is from one of Alan Wallace's podcasts.

 

There are actually two good sources for anapanasati and the jhanas, one is Ajahn Brahm and the other is Shaila Catherine - her book called "Focused and Fearless". Their approaches differ slightly; Shaila's breath awareness is to fix the attention on the nostrils while Ajahn's says it is not necessary to fix the attention of the breath at any point. But, both are excellent books.

 

The third resource is Alan Wallace. I think he is so wonderful. I had actually posted some info about these topics in another thread, because I thought you were also interested in Dzogchen and rigpa.. I think you might have missed them..

 

Here is that link:

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/24409-meaning-clear-light/#entry356966

 

TI

[konchog uma]

There are actually two good sources for anapanasati and the jhanas, one is Ajahn Brahm and the other is Shaila Catherine - her book called "Focused and Fearless". Their approaches differ slightly; Shaila's breath awareness is to fix the attention on the nostrils while Ajahn's says it is not necessary to fix the attention of the breath at any point. But, both are excellent books.

 

The third resource is Alan Wallace. I think he is so wonderful. I had actually posted some info about these topics in another thread, because I thought you were also interested in Dzogchen and rigpa.. I think you might have missed them..

 

Thanks TI

 

i have been slow to get into studying dzogchen. My lama at the dharma center in my city is actually an accomplished mahamudra practitioner (but he won't give mahamudra empowerments until after i have done my ngondro!) and i have been studying kagyu fivefold mahamudra practice with him a little bit... so i have chosen to focus my studies and practices on mahamudra and am only really learning about dzogchen peripherally if at all. I am reading Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's Wild Awakening about the overlap between the two practices and how he reconciles them. I really like him, and perhaps that book will lead to more interest in dzogchen... but for now...

 

I subscribed to Alan Wallace's podcasts, that looks like a lot of great stuff. Thank you for one more good lead, sometimes i guess you just gotta tell some people twice lol!

 

as far as shaila catherine, its interesting because i just bought an eReader (sony reader) and i was looking at different ebooks online just in case my massive collection of PDFs wasnt going to keep me busy for ten years anyway, and that book (focused and fearless) was the first that came up in my search.. i almost bought it but decided against it. I'm gonna finish Ajahn Brahm's first

 

is anapanasati the same thing as shamatha? i was just listening to mark griffin talk about dhyana states generated by deep shamatha, and i just assumed they were the same thing.. is that correct?

[Tibetan_Ice]

Thanks TI

 

i have been slow to get into studying dzogchen. My lama at the dharma center in my city is actually an accomplished mahamudra practitioner (but he won't give mahamudra empowerments until after i have done my ngondro!) and i have been studying kagyu fivefold mahamudra practice with him a little bit... so i have chosen to focus my studies and practices on mahamudra and am only really learning about dzogchen peripherally if at all. I am reading Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche's Wild Awakening about the overlap between the two practices and how he reconciles them. I really like him, and perhaps that book will lead to more interest in dzogchen... but for now...

Hi Anamatva

ngondro? I learned about that. I went to a local Diamond Way Buddhist meeting and their main practices were ngondro and guru meditation. 100,000 repetitions of the mantra. 100,000 prostrations! I can't imagine doing that. I spent 4 1/2 years doing mantra repetition (and incorrectly to boot) so basically I just walked away from the Diamond Way.

 

I subscribed to Alan Wallace's podcasts, that looks like a lot of great stuff. Thank you for one more good lead, sometimes i guess you just gotta tell some people twice lol!

 

as far as shaila catherine, its interesting because i just bought an eReader (sony reader) and i was looking at different ebooks online just in case my massive collection of PDFs wasnt going to keep me busy for ten years anyway, and that book (focused and fearless) was the first that came up in my search.. i almost bought it but decided against it. I'm gonna finish Ajahn Brahm's first

 

Good idea.

 

is anapanasati the same thing as shamatha? i was just listening to mark griffin talk about dhyana states generated by deep shamatha, and i just assumed they were the same thing.. is that correct?

 

Technically, shamatha is the state of resting the mind without distraction, obscuration or defilement. According to Alan Wallace, breath meditation is one of the practices, but he also has other techniques suach as "awareness watching awareness", the moving of awareness around, watching thoughts without grasping or averting, watching thoughts and flicking them away.. etc which are all shamatha practices.

 

Anapanasati is Buddha's teaching of using the breath to sense the body, calm the body, experience rapture, calm the mind, still the mind, experience joy ... actually, the Pali says it better than me:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

 

"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'

 

In my simple interpretation, you use the breath to focus on the particular event or state that you are working on and you progress from coarse to finer. It is the breath that empowers the intent.

 

A good talk on Shamatha by Alan Wallace is found here (really, though, most of his talks are excellent):

http://podcasts.sbinstitute.com/spring2012/2012/05/83-awareness-of-awareness/

 

Which talk were you listening to by Mark Griffin? Is it a podcast?

 

TI

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva

ngondro? I learned about that. I went to a local Diamond Way Buddhist meeting and their main practices were ngondro and guru meditation. 100,000 repetitions of the mantra. 100,000 prostrations! I can't imagine doing that. I spent 4 1/2 years doing mantra repetition (and incorrectly to boot) so basically I just walked away from the Diamond Way.

 

yeah and that vajrasattva mantra is 100 syllables long... ngondro is quite an undertaking but it really conditions ones mind and softens one's heart. Khenpo is offering for us just weekend intensives focusing on the mantra, on prostrations, and on mandala offering (the three 100,000 repetition aspects of ngondro) just to give an idea of like "oh you did 350 mantras in a whole weekend, now imagine having to do 100,000! and then from there we can continue to practice on our own. So its not monastic ngondro, its lay ngondro, which makes it something a lot of practitioners of a lot of differing age groups and levels of investment in buddhism can do to establish a foundation for their practice. So as a non-monastic i am not obligated to do 100,000 of anything! whew! lets see at 108 repetitions, which takes about an hour, one mala round per day would mean that if i spent an hour per day for two and half years, i would achieve 100,000 repetitions of mantra. So for lay people with busy lives ngondro in the traditional sense is almost unachievable. Who wants to do 108 prostrations per day for 2.5 years? urk

 

I can't do the prostrations because of leg injuries... i got to 300 during a recent refuge retreat and my knee swelled up and really screamed at me. Nothing a little turmeric and a massage didn't fix but Khenpo was like "oh okay you can just sit and say the prayer, no prostrations for you sorry" ...so i just sit seiza and touch my head and hands to the ground without getting up and down... doing many prostrations is hard! doing 100,000 is beyond my comprehension to be honest. I think thats the point.

 

actually the vajrasattva mantra is the next stage of my ngondro so i just a week ago wrote it and its translation down in my journal for memorization purposes... i have gotten strong "dharma buzz" just saying it ten or fifteen times, its really great.

 

don't know anything about the diamond way buddhists but sorry to hear you had a bad experience... happens too often

 

Technically, shamatha is the state of resting the mind without distraction, obscuration or defilement. According to Alan Wallace, breath meditation is one of the practices, but he also has other techniques suach as "awareness watching awareness", the moving of awareness around, watching thoughts without grasping or averting, watching thoughts and flicking them away.. etc which are all shamatha practices.

 

Anapanasati is Buddha's teaching of using the breath to sense the body, calm the body, experience rapture, calm the mind, still the mind, experience joy ... actually, the Pali says it better than me:

http://www.accesstoi...n.118.than.html

In my simple interpretation, you use the breath to focus on the particular event or state that you are working on and you progress from coarse to finer. It is the breath that empowers the intent.

 

A good talk on Shamatha by Alan Wallace is found here (really, though, most of his talks are excellent):

http://podcasts.sbin...s-of-awareness/

 

Which talk were you listening to by Mark Griffin? Is it a podcast?

 

I will look into the relationship between shamatha and anapanasati more deeply... its obvious from the anapanasati sutra that that practice is the buddha's teaching itself. I have heard from teachers that the buddha taught shamatha but never vipassana, which came later. I need to do some research. If anyone can clarify where these practices connect in their relationship to each other, i would appreciate it! blessings

 

i'm going to listen to alan wallace in order, so i have 94 podcasts to listen to and im only on #2 lol better get crackin on that

 

i was listening, if my memory serves me correctly, to Deepen Your Practice 07 "The Guru and Shaktipat" part 1 of 2. He was talking about dhyana as deep trance states resulting from correct shamatha practice, and the wikipedia article on dhyana confirms that its the same as the pali "jhana", so i guess that sort of answers my question. At this point, having converted all the hardlight youtube videos to mp3, subscribed to DYP for 7 months, ripped all his free stuff from hardlight.org, and purchased a bunch of his talks from the hardlight store, i have over 70 mark griffin MP3s. I actually listen to him every day, in the car, or walking in the woods, or wherever. :wub:

[Tibetan_Ice]

yeah and that vajrasattva mantra is 100 syllables long... ngondro is quite an undertaking but it really conditions ones mind and softens one's heart. Khenpo is offering for us just weekend intensives focusing on the mantra, on prostrations, and on mandala offering (the three 100,000 repetition aspects of ngondro) just to give an idea of like "oh you did 350 mantras in a whole weekend, now imagine having to do 100,000! and then from there we can continue to practice on our own. So its not monastic ngondro, its lay ngondro, which makes it something a lot of practitioners of a lot of differing age groups and levels of investment in buddhism can do to establish a foundation for their practice. So as a non-monastic i am not obligated to do 100,000 of anything! whew! lets see at 108 repetitions, which takes about an hour, one mala round per day would mean that if i spent an hour per day for two and half years, i would achieve 100,000 repetitions of mantra. So for lay people with busy lives ngondro in the traditional sense is almost unachievable. Who wants to do 108 prostrations per day for 2.5 years? urk

 

I can't do the prostrations because of leg injuries... i got to 300 during a recent refuge retreat and my knee swelled up and really screamed at me. Nothing a little turmeric and a massage didn't fix but Khenpo was like "oh okay you can just sit and say the prayer, no prostrations for you sorry" ...so i just sit seiza and touch my head and hands to the ground without getting up and down... doing many prostrations is hard! doing 100,000 is beyond my comprehension to be honest. I think thats the point.

Hi Anamatva

Sorry to hear about your legs.

You know, I sit in meditation about 2 to 3 hours per day and my legs started to hurt a while back. So, I invented a meditation bench which sits about 8 inches above the ground. My legs, in easy posture do not touch, there is no longer any pressure on my heels or feet, because they rest under the seat. I can sit for hours, with a perfectly straight back and I get no pain. It is wonderful.

 

don't know anything about the diamond way buddhists but sorry to hear you had a bad experience... happens too often

Wasn't a bad experience, just not for me. I also went to some lectures with Shamar Rinpoche in the big city but after the first day I decided to leave. He seems like a very nice person but I couldn't understand most of what he was saying... his English is not so good. I bought the book, though. His meditation is kind of interesting. Not modifying the breath in any way, on the inhale, you trace a bright chord of light from the nose, around the brain and then down to the navel. On the exhale, you trace that chord of light from the nose, downwards to the ground.

 

I will look into the relationship between shamatha and anapanasati more deeply... its obvious from the anapanasati sutra that that practice is the buddha's teaching itself. I have heard from teachers that the buddha taught shamatha but never vipassana, which came later. I need to do some research. If anyone can clarify where these practices connect in their relationship to each other, i would appreciate it! blessings

How do shamatha and vipassana connect?

According to what I've learned, shamatha practice stills the mind, makes it pliable and useable. It becomes like a supermind. (I've experienced this a few times. All of sudden the mind actually listens to you, becomes very clear and bright and runs like greased lightning. ) When the mind is in that state, or immediately after, it is the best time to gain insight (vipassana). So, you then focus on something (like previous lives as Ajahn Brahm talks about) and you get answers.

 

In other terminology, first you prep the mind and then you do self-inquiry.

 

There is some discussion about how shamatha is unnecessary since vipassana practice will also still the mind at the same time. Alan Wallace says that this is the reason why shamatha is much neglected nowadays, but he still maintains that shamatha is a necessary step, being able to rest the mind in it's natural state, otherwise you cannot hold onto the rarified states for long when you hit them.

 

i'm going to listen to alan wallace in order, so i have 94 podcasts to listen to and im only on #2 lol better get crackin on that

 

i was listening, if my memory serves me correctly, to Deepen Your Practice 07 "The Guru and Shaktipat" part 1 of 2. He was talking about dhyana as deep trance states resulting from correct shamatha practice, and the wikipedia article on dhyana confirms that its the same as the pali "jhana", so i guess that sort of answers my question. At this point, having converted all the hardlight youtube videos to mp3, subscribed to DYP for 7 months, ripped all his free stuff from hardlight.org, and purchased a bunch of his talks from the hardlight store, i have over 70 mark griffin MP3s. I actually listen to him every day, in the car, or walking in the woods, or wherever. :wub:

 

Yes, I have about 50 or so mp3's and a book by Mark Griffin and I spent allot of time listening to them. He has allot of power.

Did you ever see the video that he made about the Wizard of OZ? It was a triple screen video, which played the Wizard of Oz in the middle and had a video of Mark in samadhi (apparently) on either sides. It lasted for over an hour or two. It was his experimental effort to still the viewer's mind. As some points in the videos, Mark alters his appearance and even looks demonic in some cases.. I'm sure there is no 'evil' there and perhaps the grotesque imagery was used to further shock and still the mind, but I did get the idea that maybe Mark was using his students as guinea pigs for his creative experiments.. which in my mind, is not a good thing. When my girlfriend (at the time) saw the video for the first time when I was checking it out, she did not understand the purpose, she freaked out and nearly screamed at me just to stay away from it.

 

I can't seem to find that video on his site anymore, maybe he removed it..

 

TI

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva

Sorry to hear about your legs.

You know, I sit in meditation about 2 to 3 hours per day and my legs started to hurt a while back. So, I invented a meditation bench which sits about 8 inches above the ground. My legs, in easy posture do not touch, there is no longer any pressure on my heels or feet, because they rest under the seat. I can sit for hours, with a perfectly straight back and I get no pain. It is wonderful.

 

Hi TI

 

meditation bench sounds great, maybe when i get old (lol!) i will check that out, but for now i can sit burmese almost indefinitely, siddhasana for about 2 hours, half lotus for about an hour, and full lotus for about half an hour... so i can get some good meditations in with those postures and have never felt the need to use a bench. I appreciate the recommendation and since i do have a lot of metal in my legs i will keep it in mind for the future! I sit about 1-3 hours per day but i haven't had a problem with knees or posture, just with prostrations! just hits my weak points i guess youd say

 

How do shamatha and vipassana connect?

According to what I've learned, shamatha practice stills the mind, makes it pliable and useable. It becomes like a supermind. (I've experienced this a few times. All of sudden the mind actually listens to you, becomes very clear and bright and runs like greased lightning. ) When the mind is in that state, or immediately after, it is the best time to gain insight (vipassana). So, you then focus on something (like previous lives as Ajahn Brahm talks about) and you get answers.

In other terminology, first you prep the mind and then you do self-inquiry.

 

the way i learned it is that the two techniques eventually merge when you get them both down seperately.. at that point its what my teacher called shamatha-vipassana. So yes its like starting with shamatha and then generating significant gaps in the thoughtstream which allow direct perception of more subtle things, and insight into concepts which ordinarily confound the mind, like anatta for example. One can follow a particular line of perception as deep as they can, and then eventually they will need to come back and just stabilize in the breath, or any other object of shamatha, resting there and letting the insight take root in the mind and become wisdom. Then as the next perception or insight is created, that gets investigated (or experienced, for lack of better words) Thats a nutshell version of the shamatha-vipassana that i learned and practice. Its drikung kagyu teachers that taught the union of the two into one thing which kind of oscillates between each to form its pulse.

 

There is some discussion about how shamatha is unnecessary since vipassana practice will also still the mind at the same time. Alan Wallace says that this is the reason why shamatha is much neglected nowadays, but he still maintains that shamatha is a necessary step, being able to rest the mind in it's natural state, otherwise you cannot hold onto the rarified states for long when you hit them.

 

most of that discussion, i would wager, is by westerners who think that vipassana is a "more advanced" technique, or are attracted to the concept of insight as opposed to the seeming "doing nothing" of shamatha. Like i said, in drikung kagyu as i have learned it, they are taught side by side and the goal is to unify them into one practice. Sometimes at the meditation hall we will get newbies and say "theres shamatha instruction provided if you'd like" only to be responded to something like "oh no! i sit vipassana!" it cracks me up like people can't be bothered to watch the breath they have to generate insight dammit lol

 

just my take on things tho, not labeling anyone who prefers vipassana as deluded, but those people are out there.

 

Yes, I have about 50 or so mp3's and a book by Mark Griffin and I spent allot of time listening to them. He has allot of power.

Did you ever see the video that he made about the Wizard of OZ? It was a triple screen video, which played the Wizard of Oz in the middle and had a video of Mark in samadhi (apparently) on either sides. It lasted for over an hour or two. It was his experimental effort to still the viewer's mind. As some points in the videos, Mark alters his appearance and even looks demonic in some cases.. I'm sure there is no 'evil' there and perhaps the grotesque imagery was used to further shock and still the mind, but I did get the idea that maybe Mark was using his students as guinea pigs for his creative experiments.. which in my mind, is not a good thing. When my girlfriend (at the time) saw the video for the first time when I was checking it out, she did not understand the purpose, she freaked out and nearly screamed at me just to stay away from it.

I can't seem to find that video on his site anymore, maybe he removed it..

 

holy crap that sounds great... i have never seen it and i don't think i ever will hahaha

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi Anamatva

 

...

 

the way i learned it is that the two techniques eventually merge when you get them both down seperately.. at that point its what my teacher called shamatha-vipassana. So yes its like starting with shamatha and then generating significant gaps in the thoughtstream which allow direct perception of more subtle things, and insight into concepts which ordinarily confound the mind, like anatta for example. One can follow a particular line of perception as deep as they can, and then eventually they will need to come back and just stabilize in the breath, or any other object of shamatha, resting there and letting the insight take root in the mind and become wisdom. Then as the next perception or insight is created, that gets investigated (or experienced, for lack of better words) Thats a nutshell version of the shamatha-vipassana that i learned and practice. Its drikung kagyu teachers that taught the union of the two into one thing which kind of oscillates between each to form its pulse.

 

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and perspectives.

I did have one question. How does one generate significant gaps in the thoughtstream, as you mention above?

 

Also, here is a quote from "Stilling the Mind" - Alan Wallace..

 

We can postpone the achievement of shamatha as long as we like, while venturing into far more esoteric meditations. But if we want to come to the culmination of the cultivation of bodhichitta, vipashyana, the stages of generation and completion, and Dzogchen, sooner of later we need to focus ingle-pointedly on shamatha practice and carry through with it unit our minds dissolve into the substrate consciousness as Dudjom Lingpa describes. This may take months or even years of full-time shamatha practice, and that calls for real sacrifice. But if we refuse to take up this challenge, all the other more advanced practices we explore are bound to hit a ceiling that we cannot transcend due to the imbalances of excitation and laxity that we have yet to overcome.

 

 

TI

[konchog uma]

Thank you for sharing your knowledge and perspectives.

I did have one question. How does one generate significant gaps in the thoughtstream, as you mention above?

 

You are most welcome, for all the help you have been to me, i am honored to return the favor.

 

In short, the answer to your question is "watching the breath". There is no real secret to shamatha, you just let the mind rest in the breath and train it to stay there. When i say "significant gaps" i mean to distinguish "insignificant gaps", like the natural space between two thoughts which is short lived, from those gaps which are sustained and profound and lead to states of mind beyond discursive activity, and to spontaneous insights. Those insights are like non-verbal "intuitions" but they are beyond just intuitions, they are realizations or knowings, in a direct way. These insights are what vipassana practitioners are stalking.

 

Again, my practice and perspective is drikung kagyu tibetan vajrayana, and it should be noted that there are a lot of ways of practicing vipassana depending on who you learn from... some teach it as body awareness, some teach it as a series of questions about something that arises in the mind, like "from whence did this arise" "where is it going" "wtf" lol and so forth: the buddhist logic which gives rise to realization about the nature of phenomenon... some other teachers, like mine, teach that the insight that is generated arises from non-discursive mind being sustained for long enough that direct realization happens. Like a lightning bolt of apprehension illuminating the nighttime landscape, it just happens spontaneously.

 

Also, here is a quote from "Stilling the Mind" - Alan Wallace..

 

i happen to completely agree, and regardless of what else i find myself working with, i always practice shamatha. I think the nice thing about practicing shamatha is that if done correctly (from the point of view i explained above) it just becomes shamatha vipassana. Or if ones focus is kundalini, when the mind quiets, the energy just rises and goes where its supposed to go. In the subtle realms, thought is so powerful.. so when we can quiet our minds we can give rise to whatever energetic phenomenon is needing to happen right then. But when we are constantly in a state of internal dialogue, labelling and judging ceaselessly, it can block our energetic processes from happening.

 

I have taken great inspiration and a boost to my practice from Ajahn Brahm's book, not just because it has brought me to the edge of absorption, but also because it encourages the joy and happiness to arise with the meditative breath! That was a huge awakening for me, as i had become somewhat dispassionate and methodical about my practice until being reminded of that. Its like there was this divide between ordinary reality and the "great bliss wisdom" i have listed in my interests... but really there is no division, i was just blocked subconsciously from the happiness and joy of my own tranquility. Feeling that happiness arise just minutes into my sitting is such a refreshing wellspring to experience! whew like getting it right after a long time of experimenting and going astray!

 

with blessings!

Edited September 14, 2012 by anamatva

[konchog uma]

I'm going to spend the weekend in a cabin in the old growth forest, so i wont be taobumming til monday

 

i see alan wallace talks about vipashyana in light of the 3 teachings of padmasambhava, which i may skip ahead to, that looks interesting..

 

but for now im going to enjoy some very tall trees! have a great weekend ttys

[Tibetan_Ice]

I'm going to spend the weekend in a cabin in the old growth forest, so i wont be taobumming til monday

 

i see alan wallace talks about vipashyana in light of the 3 teachings of padmasambhava, which i may skip ahead to, that looks interesting..

 

but for now im going to enjoy some very tall trees! have a great weekend ttys

 

Hi Anamatva

Thanks for your explanations.

Yes, it is the conceptual mind that keeps getting in the way. But I think there is a distinction there. I've experienced gaps between thoughts or listening to the silence after a word is sounded and disappears and I don't think that that is the same as the 'satori' moments type of experience. The gaps between thoughts are like being in the eye of a hurricane. Yes, it is silent and seemingly spacey, but all around the mind is still churning away. The type of experience with the 'satori' effect, is that the whole conceptual mind, which appears towards the back of the perceptive spectrum, is taken as a whole, as the whole hurricane. If you can keep the whole hurricane away, that is the effect.. The hurricane comes from the back. It is like consciousness is a spectrum from the outer world and manifestations of forms which progresses towards the inner world of thoughts and sensations/smells/emotions to the "I". But, right in the middle of the spectrum lies the satori effect, it is between the outer and the inner. I call it the satori effect; it is a state of great bliss, silence, clarity and luminosity.

 

Your comments about joy have caused me to further examine the pita and sukkha aspect of breath meditation. In "The Four Immeasurables" by Alan Wallace is says that "Instead, the Buddha says: "And through the samatha practice, joy arises, and from the joy, then insight arises..."

 

And I've also found an article about nimittas that refers to the joy that Ajahn Brahm speaks about:

link: http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/19.7-Nimitta-piya.pdf

 

The purpose of joy and happiness is to still the mind. Stillness is the absence of movement. But what

is it that causes the mind to move? It is the will, that is, the doer. When the wind is blowing around a tree,

even if you hold a leaf tightly, it will still tremble. Only when the wind stops that the leaf will be still. In

other words, you cannot will the mind to be still. Stillness arises through the joy and happiness arising

from letting go.

Mental stillness enriches the joy and happiness (pīti,sukha) of meditation. The deepening of joy and

happiness, in turn, allows less opportunity for effort to interfere, and so stillness grows stronger. When

this process continues unbroken, it leads to dhyana, where the joy and happiness is profound.

A common problem faced by self-taught meditators is that they panic when they begin to notice their

breath disappearing, or they are not sure what to do next. This is the fifth mental hindrance, that of doubt

(vicikicchā) [6.1]. Indeed, when the breath disappears before the arising of the beautiful breath, it is a case

of sloth and torpor [6.1], or weak attention. We should take a step back, as it were, to strengthen the

“silent present moment awareness’ [4.2], so that we put more energy into the awareness.

When the beautiful breath [4.4] has arisen, it feel so blissful and effortless to be mindful of the breath

for long durations. As the mind grows more still, the perception of the breath becomes more subtle. There

comes a point where there is no more perception of the beginning, middle or end of the breath. It becomes

a single experience of subtle breathing that remains unchanged as it were from moment to moment. What

has happened is that we have transcended the external or physical features of the breath, and are seeing

the heart of the breath experience.

When stillness and meditative joy and happiness (pīti,sukha) have grown strong enough, the breath

disappears. At the stage of the beautiful breath, the breath disappears, leaving only the beauty [4.4]. We

are a step closer to dhyana.

 

Anyway, have a great weekend, enjoy your trees!

 

TI

[konchog uma]

Hi Anamatva

Thanks for your explanations.

Yes, it is the conceptual mind that keeps getting in the way. But I think there is a distinction there. I've experienced gaps between thoughts or listening to the silence after a word is sounded and disappears and I don't think that that is the same as the 'satori' moments type of experience. The gaps between thoughts are like being in the eye of a hurricane. Yes, it is silent and seemingly spacey, but all around the mind is still churning away. The type of experience with the 'satori' effect, is that the whole conceptual mind, which appears towards the back of the perceptive spectrum, is taken as a whole, as the whole hurricane. If you can keep the whole hurricane away, that is the effect.. The hurricane comes from the back. It is like consciousness is a spectrum from the outer world and manifestations of forms which progresses towards the inner world of thoughts and sensations/smells/emotions to the "I". But, right in the middle of the spectrum lies the satori effect, it is between the outer and the inner. I call it the satori effect; it is a state of great bliss, silence, clarity and luminosity.

 

Your comments about joy have caused me to further examine the pita and sukkha aspect of breath meditation. In "The Four Immeasurables" by Alan Wallace is says that "Instead, the Buddha says: "And through the samatha practice, joy arises, and from the joy, then insight arises..."

 

And I've also found an article about nimittas that refers to the joy that Ajahn Brahm speaks about:

link: http://dharmafarer.o...imitta-piya.pdf

 

Anyway, have a great weekend, enjoy your trees!

 

TI

 

Hi TI,

 

thanks for your insights! I don't think in the way i was taught that the gaps are the satori, but they give rise to satori... like lack of thought isn't mahamudra itself, but gives rise to it. i like that idea of joy and happiness stilling the mind, i will work with that. I have been guilty of trying to will the mind to stillness even tho i know better. Nice reminder

 

my weekend was amazing, we walked through 2 forests of 400+ year old trees. It was like the forest that time forgot. Words would fail to describe it, so i won't go on about it. One of the best little adventures i have been on. Our cabin was lovely too, and so was the milky way! (wow you country people are lucky, as a city dweller i had forgotten the majesty of the night sky)

 

anyway, thank you TI, i will continue to work with those teachings, and i will probably pick up a copy of Fearless and Focused soon too

[RiverSnake]

Wow, quite inspirational stuff guys, thanks. Hopefully one day i will get to that level of "Stillness"....still churning around in that hurricane.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

Edited September 17, 2012 by OldGreen

[Ish]

Hey guys, nice topic with some good info, thanks.

Tibetan_Ice, i saw you mentioned the root lock in one of your posts, can you say a bit more about it? Recently its become a part of my practice and ive found it quite powerful.

 

Thanks

[Tibetan_Ice]

Hi TI,

 

thanks for your insights! I don't think in the way i was taught that the gaps are the satori, but they give rise to satori... like lack of thought isn't mahamudra itself, but gives rise to it. i like that idea of joy and happiness stilling the mind, i will work with that. I have been guilty of trying to will the mind to stillness even tho i know better. Nice reminder

 

my weekend was amazing, we walked through 2 forests of 400+ year old trees. It was like the forest that time forgot. Words would fail to describe it, so i won't go on about it. One of the best little adventures i have been on. Our cabin was lovely too, and so was the milky way! (wow you country people are lucky, as a city dweller i had forgotten the majesty of the night sky)

 

anyway, thank you TI, i will continue to work with those teachings, and i will probably pick up a copy of Fearless and Focused soon too

 

Hi Anamatva,

You are welcome and much appreciated.

Glad you had a great time.

 

TI

[johndoe2012]

.

Edited August 18, 2013 by chris d