Tai Chi Chuan & Ki Gong

[Fatal]

T'ai Chi & QiGong

Internally and externally speaking, Gong Fu is indeed an inexhaustable well of spiritual knowing.

 

Those of you who study or practice either one of the above mentioned disciplines, I have a question.

 

What would you tell someone if they were trying to find out why these disciplines are so widely written about, revered and meditated upon?

 

What have YOU gained from them?

 

The statement, "The Shaolin and The Wu-Tang could be dangerous." only means, "The external and internal martial arts, once combined, could be dangerous." Why is this so?

 

We all know that the external arts are deadly, but what specifically makes the internal arts even deadlier?

 

In my own personal pursuit of many styles, I find the internal arts to be most beautiful. Simply because they've given me a much richer understanding of many other fields of study. For example, studying QiGong, I completely understand Dr. Jose Arguelles' guidelines for evolution. Etc.

 

I would like to read your personal insights, not something you just snatched off of some website somewhere. Even if you did go to a website, reply with your own voice. Your own understanding and intuition.

[ChiDragon]

Everybody has a teacher and go by the teacher's words only. Otherwise, they think somebody else own understanding and intuition are all bullshit.

 

 

PS....

If you don't mind to read some of my BS, you are welcome to it.

Tai Ji Chuan

Edited September 12, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

T'ai Chi & QiGong

Internally and externally speaking, Gong Fu is indeed an inexhaustable well of spiritual knowing.

Those of you who study or practice either one of the above mentioned disciplines, I have a question.

What would you tell someone if they were trying to find out why these disciplines are so widely written about, revered and meditated upon?

 

What have YOU gained from them?

 

T'ai Chi & QiGong give one the most health benefits, physically as well as mentally.

 

I have gained physical strength, self esteem and self confidence. It gives me good muscle tone. I breathe better and my reactions are a lot quicker to any sudden adverse situation which is mental alertness. It makes me more aware what is going on in the environment around me which is a good defensive element. I can catch anything fell off the table before it reaches the floor.

Edited November 17, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The statement, "The Shaolin and The Wu-Tang could be dangerous." only means, "The external and internal martial arts, once combined, could be dangerous." Why is this so?

 

We all know that the external arts are deadly, but what specifically makes the internal arts even deadlier?

 

In my own personal pursuit of many styles, I find the internal arts to be most beautiful. Simply because they've given me a much richer understanding of many other fields of study. For example, studying QiGong, I completely understand Dr. Jose Arguelles' guidelines for evolution. Etc.

 

I would like to read your personal insights, not something you just snatched off of some website somewhere. Even if you did go to a website, reply with your own voice. Your own understanding and intuition.

 

The Shaolin and The Wu-Tang are already internal and external combined. Each art by itself is not deadly but only the mental capacity in self control of the practitioner is.

 

Now, it's time for me to strike back for a question...!!! In your own understanding and intuition, why does one have to practice the fundamental movements in Tai Ji or Qi Gong deliberately....??? If you can answer this question, then you have won half of the battle.

Edited September 13, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Mokona]

I never had an intellectual understanding. http://www.tidewatertaichi.com/ I learned from these guys over by the beach in a small studio with some badass older ladies. I never even learned the names of the moves, I just remember everything by feel. There came a day after class I left feeling SONG like never before, all the way home... It was so amazing..

[spiraltao]

our own understanding and intuition, why does one have to practice the fundamental movements in Tai Ji [/font][/color][/size][/font][/color]or Qi Gong deliberately....???[/b] If you can answer this question, then you have won half of the battle.

The Shaolin and The Wu-Tang are already internal and external combined. Each art by itself is not deadly but only the mental capacity in self control of the practitioner is.

Now, it's time for me to strike back for a question...!!! In your own understanding and intuition, why does one have to practice the fundamental movements in Tai Ji or Qi Gong deliberately....??? If you can answer this question, then you have won half of the battle.

 

 

I will give this a go and try to keep it simple as to avoid a language barrier.

Despite our language barrier, I will give a go at this, ChiDragon.

 

First of all, chi travels slightly slower than blood, thus the need to perform the movements slowly, to properly circulate chi and maintain intention and focus. Motion (yang) carries stillness (yin.)

[ChiDragon]

I will give this a go and try to keep it simple as to avoid a language barrier.

Despite our language barrier, I will give a go at this, ChiDragon.

 

First of all, chi travels slightly slower than blood, thus the need to perform the movements slowly, to properly circulate chi and maintain intention and focus. Motion (yang) carries stillness (yin.)

 

"chi travels slightly slower than blood,"

How do we know this is true or not.....???

Edited September 15, 2012 by ChiDragon

[GrandmasterP]

We taught a course in a community centre where Tai Chi players also gathered.

Our session poster appeared on the centre noticeboard beneath the Tai Chi teacher's class notice.

Someone without our knowledge or approval wrote the following on the Ti Chi poster....

Tai Chi makes you wee. QiGong makes you strong.

It was a poor show and our class was 'told off'. Ultimately,whichever cultivation works for an individual is the right one for them.

[ChiDragon]

"Tai Chi makes you wee. QiGong makes you strong."

 

This is an understatement. Whomever wrote this statement doesn't know the difference between Tai Chi and QiGong. It was understood that Tai Chi is a form of QiQong. Both involve deep breathing or abdominal breathing whichever one prefer. However, Tai Chi requires more extensive movements as compared to the other types of QiGong. Especially, in Tai Chi, it was putting some stresses on the legs by some movements which requires the practitioner to stand on one leg. As far as in cultivation wise, both have the same health effect as well as the physical fitness too.

Edited September 16, 2012 by ChiDragon

[GrandmasterP]

Absolutely. The very idea of any competitiveness or superiority between the two disciplines is risible yet for some whatever they do must be 'better' than another's chosen method. A stance that speaks volumes about those adopting it and nothing at all of value on that they purpourt to citique.

[ChiDragon]

I never had an intellectual understanding. http://www.tidewatertaichi.com/ I learned from these guys over by the beach in a small studio with some badass older ladies. I never even learned the names of the moves, I just remember everything by feel. There came a day after class I left feeling SONG like never before, all the way home... It was so amazing..

 

There is something good about Tai Ji Chuan. One just need to learn the basic movements at the beginning without any basic knowledge. One by practicing these movements diligently will have significant results. Even with a good teacher explaining the theory, one without the experience from their practice still would not understand it all. The teacher can only guide one through the practice. One can only learn 50% from the teacher, 25% was from the practice and the rest was from the wisdom of the practitioner. It is because the teacher can only tell one so much. However, how much one can absorb or digest is a different story. Some do have the wisdom to go on one's own by the enlightenment of one's intuition, while the others may not have the wisdom but just have to be relied on the teachers for further instructions at all times.

 

There are many ways that one can tell have progress taken place or not from a long time practice. One can tell by the physical changes like the muscle tone with the increase in body strength and the increase in the speed of one's reaction. The most significant difference was in breathing. After years of practice, the breathing is much deeper than the first day of the practice. The basic movements of Tai Ji will help the body to increase the coordination of the arms and legs and to loosen the joints. The coordination is very important for enabling the body to move freely at any position at any instance without jeopardize the twitching muscles from over stress.

 

In Tai Ji Chuan, the inner strength of the body was developed from long time practice was called Jin(勁). In QiGong, the Jin was referred as Chi or energy. I need the emphasize that this 'Chi' is the body energy but not the cosmic energy going through the body as one might think it would be. Of cause, anybody can think of it anyway as one pleases. Physically, I would personally consider that the inner strength is 'Jin' which developed from the long time practice of Tai Ji and I have many native documents to substantiate that.

 

Whatever people want to call the inner strength is. It is either Chi or Jin, but to me it is still the inner strength was developed from practicing. There was a term, in Tai Ji, to exert the inner strength is called Fa Jin. To Fa Jin, one must has the Jin(勁) in order to Fa Jin(發勁). Fa Jin falls into the Neikung(內功, internal practice) category. From the term "inner strength" itself, it was self explanatory as internal practice.

Edited September 17, 2012 by ChiDragon

[PLB]

My personal experience is that I am not sure what is personal any longer.

 

When I learned to not react to everything that was happening because it was happening, it changed what was happening.

 

if you are looking for a fight, it will happen. If you are looking to not fight, it may not happen.

 

I like to spar, push, and play all sorts of games. That is not combat or training for it. The internal art certainly makes me less than zero. But it is not the same as devoting myself to stand before others in battle.

 

In conclusion, I think it is not about measuring what is the most powerful or the most beneficial by this or that standard but becoming a unit of measure yourself.

[GrandmasterP]

Spot on PLB. Another crit of Tai Chi I have been told by students who think they have to 'big up' QiGong is that Tasi Chi is a martial art hence 'aggressive' whereas QiGong is not aggressive. Now that's just tosh and I always say so, often replying along the lines of...

'You could choke someone to death with a fluffy bunny if you had a mind to'.

It's the intention NOT the form that counts.

I once read for a lovelypro cage fighter who paints inspired watercolours in his spare time there is one above this desk now as I type, Mount Fuji with pines in the background and four figures with two pack horses traversing a path in the forground.

Edited September 17, 2012 by GrandmasterP

[ChiDragon]

Tai Ji Chuan is a very unique form of NeiKung. At the beginning, Tai Ji is a form QiGong then it becomes a martial arts. QiGong is an internal art and martial arts is external. However, Tai Ji won't become QiGong until it becomes perfected by the practitioner after a long period of cultivation. If one thinks that Tai Ji is a form of martial arts to begin with and practice it as a MA, then one will just practice it as MA and may never learn Tai Ji as Tai Ji. If one thinks Tai Ji is an internal art, then one will practice it as an internal art and will learn Tai Ji as Tai JI.

 

The first year of Tai Ji practice is most significant for how it turns out to be. First, it was to learn the forms of the movements. That was the initial mental training by remembering the moves. During the course of the practice, there are some subtle things happening to the practitioner without being noticed by the practitioner. There are three basic elements called xing(形), yi(意) and shen(神) which taken place simultaneously.

 

Xing(形) is the form of each movement. Yi(意) is the intend of the mind. Shen(神) is the spirit of the body which indicated by the body language. These three elements are to be the goal of achievements for practicing Tai Ji. All these three criteria will show the progression level of the Tai Ji practitioner. In addition, these three criteria will also indicate how strong the inner strength of the practitioner is. Another words, the inner strength is the amount of Jin(勁) which the practitioner can be exerted. Jin is the most unique feature about Tai Ji. Jin can only be developed by the diligent practice of Ti Ji Chaun day after day. Indeed, this part may be considered to be the internal art because it was taken place inside the body; it was also known as NeiGong . Most people preferred as "cultivation of internal power" or by other similar nomenclatures in the west. It was also called QiGong because the effectiveness of breathing was also enhanced spontaneously during Tai Ji practice.

 

PS...

I will elaborate on the three criteria of Xing(形), Yi(意) and Shen(神) in the near future. Of course, this is all my personal understanding and intuition.

Edited September 23, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Meroe]

Not to sound nitpicking or anything like that. but Ki, is the Japanese understanding for lifeforce, which may bring different connotations in their paradigm. the Chinese write it as either Qi, or Chi. the Japanese word for Chi Gong is Kiko.

[ChiDragon]

Not to sound nitpicking or anything like that. but Ki, is the Japanese understanding for lifeforce, which may bring different connotations in their paradigm. the Chinese write it as either Qi, or Chi. the Japanese word for Chi Gong is Kiko.

The main characters are known as 氣功.

It doesn't matter. They are all phonetics in other languages anyway.

[ChiDragon]

Xing(形) is the form of each movement.

 

The Xing will display all the aspects of each form such as the correctness, the amount of softness within the hardness, the smoothness within the motion of each move. In later stage, the inner strength will be displayed also. The Xing will reveal the skillfulness of the practitioner. A skillful practitioner will demonstrate the movements very smoothly and accurately. After a long time practice, the Jin will be eventually showed a little strength in the moves. The arms and legs will be moving in an orderly fashion by having each move continuously flowing non stop one after another.

 

For a novice, the muscles in the arms and legs of the practitioner are very tight and stiff. Hence, it was recommended to loosen up all the muscles and joints while performing the movements. Loosen up the muscles is very important in Tai Ji as a form of NeiKung(internal practice). If the muscles weren't relaxed, then it would be considered external practice such as in any martial arts. While learning the forms and have the muscles to be relaxed was the hardest thing to do for a beginner. However, the Xing of the moves will not be showing very smoothly then. A final word for Xing, actually, it is the gesture of the whole body including the movements. It would be very pleasant to watch a skillful practitioner to perform all the Tai Ji moves smoothly.

Edited September 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Yi(意) is the intend of the mind.

 

At the first level, Xing was to learn the fundamental movements. The Xing of the beginners are very awkward and not smooth at all because the Yi(意) was not there. When the Yi was not there, the practitioner doesn't know what the next move is going to be. In order to have the Xing to look smoothly, the movements must be registered in the mind of the practitioner. Indeed, that has to be accomplished from the practice. While the arms and legs are moving slowly and repeatedly, all the moves are registered in the mind. Thus next time the Xing will be taken over by the Yi. The Yi will direct the body what to do exactly, so all the moves can be done smoothly.The practitioner will get to a point as soon each move was triggered by the Yi, the Xing will show each move exactly what was in the mind. That was why it is so important to practice the moves diligently.

 

Now, let's talk about the body strength by distinguishing the nuance between the normal and inner strength by defining them. For the sake of discussion, let's say that the normal strength is for a non Tai Ji practitioner and the inner strength is the body strength of a Tai Ji practitioner or may be referred as Jin(勁).

Edited September 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Meroe]

 

The main characters are known as 氣功.

It doesn't matter. They are all phonetics in other languages anyway.

 

Ask an Ethnic Chinese Chi gong master or acupuncturist about Ki, or Ki Gong, & they'll look at you like you're stupid & probably not know what you're talking about. This I know from personal experience

[ChiDragon]

Ask an Ethnic Chinese Chi gong master or acupuncturist about Ki, or Ki Gong, & they'll look at you like you're stupid & probably not know what you're talking about. This I know from personal experience

 

It depends how broad their knowledge and minds are.They don't know it but it doesn't mean that you don't know....

Edited September 18, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Yi(意) is the intend of the mind.

 

At the first level, Xing was to learn the fundamental movements. The Xing of the beginners are very awkward and not smooth at all because the Yi(意) was not there. When the Yi was not there, the practitioner doesn't know what the next move is going to be. In order to have the Xing to look smoothly, the movements must be registered in the mind of the practitioner. Indeed, that has to be accomplished from the practice. While the arms and legs are moving slowly and repeatedly, all the moves are registered in the mind. Thus next time the Xing will be taken over by the Yi. The Yi will direct the body what to do exactly, so all the moves can be done smoothly.The practitioner will get to a point as soon each move was triggered by the Yi, the Xing will show each move exactly what was in the mind. That was why it is so important to practice the moves diligently.

 

Now, let's talk about the body strength by distinguishing the nuance between the normal and inner strength by defining them. For the sake of discussion, let's say that the normal strength is for a non Tai Ji practitioner and the inner strength is the body strength of a Tai Ji practitioner or may be referred as Jin(勁).

 

The initial body strength of a beginner is the normal strength. The normal strength was scattered in the muscles which is hard to be controlled. In order for the normal strength to be effective, one has to punch with the arm all the way out straight to have a maximum impact. With the continuous practice of the Tai Ji movements, the normal strength will be incremented progressively to become the inner strength. The inner strength is distributed evenly throughout the muscles which can be easily controlled by the Yi. The Yi can control the amount of the inner strength to be exerted by any muscle at any position and any time. With the combination of the Yi, inner strength and Xing all putted together, it is the most effective way to Fa Jin.

 

 

PS....

This is all based by my intuition in lieu with the Fa Jin and Jin principles written by Cheng Man Ching for the Yang Style Tai Ji Chuan.

Edited September 19, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

"With the combination of the Yi, inner strength and Xing all putted together, it is the most effective way to Fa Jin."

 

I would like to put a little emphasis on Fa Jin(發勁). One does not born with Jin(勁). Jin has to be developed in the muscles by the prolong practice during the first year. The muscles have to be completely relaxed while performing the slow movements; so, the normal strength does not interfere with the Jin development. Thus this is the secret to NeiKung(內功, internal practice). However, as soon one exert a force in the muscles, that will become the external practice which will defeat the principle of Yin-yang in Tai Ji. The Yin is before Yang which implies that the muscles were soft to begin with then hard after the first year of practice. The reason was because the result of the muscle tone was developed. At the same time, Jin was developed and distributed evenly in the muscles. So, the Yi can issue a signal to any muscle of the body to exert Jin at any time and position.

 

Fa Jin can be done by each muscle in any part of the body. Partial Fa Jin was done to reserve the body energy. The idea to issue Jin partially was only to focus in the area that was interested. Let's look at Fa Jin in the right hand. A Tai Ji practitioner can exert Jin in any part of the hand. It can be done in this sequence under different conditions.

1. If one wants to just hold the opponent in place, then more Jin was exerted at the fingers than the lower arm. This sequence was to hold the hand of the opponent, the lower arm was to lock the hand in place with a slight pull back to resist the force of being pulled by the opponent. However, as soon as the opponent cease the resisting force, the practitioner will relax all the muscles to reserve energy for the next counter interaction. As soon a sense was felt that the opponent become aggressive again, the practitioner will immediately exert the Jin again in the same manner.

 

2. If the Yi of the practitioner has been determined at a condition that the opponent can be pushed away, then also Yi will automatically calculated how much Jin to be exerted and how far to send the opponent away. For example, the practitioner can just send the opponent away or all the way against the wall. All the calculations were taken place in a matter of a split second by the Yi of the practitioner. As soon the body strength of the opponent was felt by the practitioner, at that instance, the Yi will react spontaneously without hesitation for the counteract. BTW It corresponds to the old Tai Ji saying "You don't move, I don't move. If you move, I'll move first".

Edited September 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

In order to Fa Jin, the body of the practitioner must be able to be standing still against any external influential force. This is where the rooting comes into play. Traditionally, in martial arts, rooting was accomplished from Zhan Zhuang (站庄). In Tai Ji, Zhan Zhuang was not required to do it separately. It is because good 'rooting' was obtained from the fundamental movements, spontaneously, by bending the knees and sometimes standing on one bent leg for few seconds at a time.

 

During Fa Jin, to balance and stabilize the body, the muscles of one or both legs were contracted depend on the circumstances for solid rooting. BTW Rooting was not done continuously, it was only applied at the time when necessary to counteract any sudden lunge by an opponent. Another words, the body was most powerful is when all the muscles are at the Fa Jin mode.

Edited September 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

Rooting is like a building having a good foundation. The key in balancing oneself is to have the centroid of the body maintaining in the center with the vertical. In order for the body to have a good foundation or rooting, the legs must be able to lock into the ground or floor. That was done by exerting the inner strength to the legs as all the martial artists would have done.

 

Rooting was done by having the feet anchored to the ground by imaging that with the left and right foot squeeze toward each other while the Fa Jin in the lower legs. To keep the balance was by shifting the centroid of the body according to action of the opponent. If the opponent moves toward the chest, then the practitioner should guide the opponent away from the centroid to maintain balance. At the same time, try to shift the centroid of the opponent off the vertical or move him around to get him off balance.

 

If a normal person was standing on the ground, it is very easy to push the body upward then back to get him off balance. Thus the upward push will cause the opponent to loosen the feet lock off the ground; while pushing back will cause the centroid to shift off toward the rear. Finally, a big thrust with a full amount of Fa Jin with both arms will send the opponent flying off to the wall. At higher level of understanding Tai Ji, these kind of the subtleties ought to be grokked by the intuition of the practitioners.

Edited September 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

The Tai Chi movements are fundamentally the same but there are slight variations between the Tai Ji families. The effects for the physical health are the same. The unique thing about Tai Ji was that the breathing is in synchronization with each movement. Indeed, the breathing was guided by the movements spontaneously. For example, as a general rule, inhale while the hands are being raised, exhale while the hands are being lowered. Tai Ji is the best cure for people with breathing problems. Normally, people with breathing problem, their breathings are very shallow. Another words, they cannot breathe deep down to the abdomen. Breathing down to the abdomen is equivalent to the saying of "Sunk Chi to the Dan Tian". Dan Tian was referred as the abdomen by the martial arts industry. Hence, the goal in breathing was to have the breath reach down to the Dan Tian.

 

In QiGong, it has the same goal of "Sunk Chi to the Dan Tian". Most people thought or interpreted that this Chi was the energy being stored in the Dan Tian. However, by the Chinese definition, it means that the breath was being sunk to the abdomen. The priority in breathing for QiGong and Tai Ji is reversed. In QiGong, breathing is primary and movement is secondary. While in Tai Ji, the breathing was guided by the movements which is secondary.

Edited September 21, 2012 by ChiDragon