SONG as it relates to baguazhang

[spiraltao]

I have read the first thirty six songs quite well and I see no mention of song. Softness is stressed by my sifu, sensitivity would be a more apt description.

 

Does the mud stepping produce a state of song or is it like the so many of the songs say, the hard and soft mutually correspond to create a different kind of enenergy unique to baguazhang.

 

 

This is one of my favorite songs.

 

TWENTY EIGHTH SONG

When the opponent is hard and I am soft, this is the RIGHT WAY. However, if I am soft and the opponent is hard, the mthod is also good. The hard and the soft mutually coordinate and win (control) from the WAIST. The conflict (battle) is decided on whose stepping is better.

[doc benway]

I've never read anything about Bagua.

From my practice, I think that it develops song in multiple ways.

If you practice zhan zhuang and circle walking, song naturally develops.

It develops in my structure and posture. And it also develops in my motion.

Just like there is a resilience in my posture - a yielding combined with a maintenance of structure to applied pressure.

There is a similar resilience in the cadence, tempo, rhythm and pattern of the footwork, waist turning, and so on, that reacts to interaction with the opponent.

Interesting that it's not discussed in the songs.

No question it is fundamental in all of the internal arts.

[zerostao]

the first 36 songs are to be pondered over, chewed on , digested the first 3 or 4 years of bgz practice.

there are also other bgz songs not from dong hai chuan. and dong hia chuan also has another 48 songs to

be looked at, absorbed, after the first 36 are comprehended.

there is mention of song in songs. it may not call it song tho.

[mYTHmAKER]

Google Google Google

Does this help

6th paragraph from the top

http://www.zhong-ding.com/index.php/articles/2-english/24-master-gao-jiwu-talks-about-his-martial-arts-experience

[spiraltao]

Thanks all! Just got off phone with sifu. He said far too often the answers are right in front of us.

[spiraltao]

Actually I went and read the Gao Ji Wu stuff and this is close to what I was getting at. I think I mis spelled it, it is a tai chi term, SUNG.

 

"Song (alert relaxation) is a concept that many people are familiar with as emphasized in taijiquan but in baguazhang the use of song is somewhat different. In baguazhang we concentrate on song in two places,the shoulders and the hips. The rest of the body must have jin (power)."

 

"In order to really master baguazhang, in my opinion, the most important thing is to ¨lian yi bu lian li¨, that is to train the intent not the strength. This means that correct strength or power comes from correct intent."

Edited September 17, 2012 by jaysahnztao

[zerostao]

good point jay.

shoulders and the hips. shoulders including shoulder blades.

[doc benway]

I think I mis spelled it, it is a tai chi term, SUNG.

I think you had it right the first time.

I'm pretty sure the character you are referring to is 鬆, the simplified version is 松.

It is spelled SONG in Pinyin and is pronounced using the first tone.

 

I like how Song is mostly mentioned in terms of shoulders and hips.

It is critically important to develop Song in those areas.

 

I would respectfully add that Song is also an important quality throughout the waist and spine.

In fact, I think there are aspects of Song throughout the body at the same time as aspects of Jin.

It's not either/or - it's both, varying in degree depending on the circumstances at any given moment.

Just my personal experience.

[zerostao]

I would respectfully add that Song is also an important quality throughout the waist and spine.

In fact, I think there are aspects of Song throughout the body at the same time as aspects of Jin.

It's not either/or - it's both, varying in degree depending on the circumstances at any given moment

very much agree. i think for the bagua player there needs to be a special awareness of song/sung?

with the hips and shoulders. it is surprising to me how many folks dont seem to know they can use their hips and shoulder blades.

[ChiDragon]

For my understanding.

By the linguistic meaning, it has nothing to do with martial arts.

song(鬆, 松): relax or loosen the muscles.

Jin(勁): is the body energy or strength, anyone who uses the body strength requires muscle contraction.

 

song(鬆, 松) is just relaxing the muscle; it doesn't require any special skill to develop it but Jin does.

Edited September 20, 2012 by ChiDragon

[mYTHmAKER]

Song to me is letting go of any tension / holding patterns in my body and mind.

But of course what do I know

[ChiDragon]

"Song to me is letting go of any tension / holding patterns in my body"

 

"song(鬆, 松): relax or loosen the muscles."

 

Is there a difference.....???

[mYTHmAKER]

"Song to me is letting go of any tension / holding patterns in my body"

 

"song(鬆, 松): relax or loosen the muscles."

 

Is there a difference.....???

 

yes you left out "and mind"

 

My statement was - Song to me is letting go of any tension / holding patterns in my body and mind.

[ChiDragon]

yes you left out "and mind"

 

My statement was - Song to me is letting go of any tension / holding patterns in my body and mind.

 

Is there any tension in the mind.....???

[mYTHmAKER]

Is there any tension in the mind.....???

 

you're giving me a headache

[zerostao]

chidragon welcome to the bagua thread bro.

i didnt know you practiced bgz but even if you dont you can start , right?

you have a good foundation with taiji.

that helps.

[ChiDragon]

chidragon welcome to the bagua thread bro.

i didnt know you practiced bgz but even if you dont you can start , right?

you have a good foundation with taiji.

that helps.

 

Basically, the fundamental principles are the same in martial arts. One just have to know the nuance between them. It is an art to know the uniqueness of each. Then one will have a better understanding of the other types by comparison.

 

 

 

PS.....

I am too critical and may offend too many people. I better stay out. Thanks for the welcome.....

Edited September 21, 2012 by ChiDragon

[doc benway]

For my understanding.

By the linguistic meaning, it has nothing to do with martial arts.

song(鬆, 松): relax or loosen the muscles.

Jin(勁): is the body energy or strength, anyone who uses the body strength requires muscle contraction.

 

song(鬆, 松) is just relaxing the muscle; it doesn't require any special skill to develop it but Jin does.

This is a bit off the Baguazhang theme but I think it's worth clarifying the meaning of Song in the internal martial arts.

 

Chi Dragon -

It appears that you have not had direct instruction in Song based on your comments.

Song is a very fundamental skill that develops with proper Taijiquan instruction.

It is also present in Xingyiquan and Baguazhang (and external arts) but less central to those arts.

 

There is much more to Song in the martial arts than the simple "linguistic meaning" of the word.

Song in martial arts does not mean to simply relax the muscles.

If the muscles are totally relaxed, they are flaccid and one would completely collapse.

Relaxation always alternates with contraction, one cannot occur without the other - they are inextricably related - Yin and Yang.

If a muscle only contracts, this is called tetany and is extremely painful and disabling. It occurs in certain diseases such as toxicity from Tetanus. If a muscle only relaxes, it is equivalent to paralysis and is total dysfunctional.

Song relates to a skillful balance between relaxation and contraction of the muscles, a balance of Yin and Yang.

 

Song is to maintain proper posture and structure with a minimal expenditure of energy.

All unnecessary tension is let go. It takes a great deal of practice for the body to learn what can be let go and what must remain, and this is changing constantly with time and circumstances.

Included in this relaxed structure is sensitivity and responsiveness (Ting Jin) which is often described as the quality of a ball floating on water when pushing against a Taiji player. Song allows for one to develop the quality of steel wrapped in cotton - the steel is the Fa Jin and the cotton is Song (obviously it's not quite that simple but it's not too far off). Simply relaxing the muscles is easy, finding the correct balance from moment to moment whether still or moving, connected to a partner or practicing the forms, of muscle contraction and relaxation - that is the challenge of developing skill in Song.

 

Taiji form practice is said to be proper when observing three qualities - Song (relaxed), Jing (tranquil), and Zi Ran (natural).

The nature of martial application in Taijiquan is based on continuous physical contact with the opponent and is captured in the phrase - Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding. This translates to Touch, Stick, Connect, Follow, Don't Separate or Go Against.

To achieve this requires a high degree of skill in Song and Ting Jin (sensitivity) among other things.

 

Song gradually develops through dedicated practice of standing (Zhan Zhuang), form, and pushing hands (Tui Shou) drills, including Da Lu (big rollback or big circle), Xiao Lu (small rollback or small circle, sometimes called Peng Lu Ji An), as well as freestyle pushing and many other drills.

 

Baguazhang does not emphasize Zhan Nian Lian Sui Bu Diu Ding but there is, nevertheless, a role of Song in Bagua (and Xingyi) as is currently being discussed.

 

Sorry for the side bar but I think it's important for us to understand the meaning of what is being discussed.

[joeblast]

and there's the difference between reading a book and translating the meanings of a few words, and actually receiving wise and knowledgeable instruction and putting it into practice. great sidebar, steve.

[zerostao]

yawn.

i am not yawning becoz of lack of interest about this thread. i am yawning coz i think it illustrates a type of baguazhang song.

a yawn is relaxed and still holds a certain tension.at the same time it is a nice stretch too.and from this relaxed/stretched/tension of a yawn one could emit a fa jin. a good yawn just feels good.

[ChiDragon]

1. If the muscles are totally relaxed, they are flaccid and one would completely collapse.

 

2. Relaxation always alternates with contraction, one cannot occur without the other - they are inextricably related - Yin and Yang.

If a muscle only contracts, this is called tetany and is extremely painful and disabling. It occurs in certain diseases such as toxicity from Tetanus. If a muscle only relaxes, it is equivalent to paralysis and is total dysfunctional.

 

3. Song relates to a skillful balance between relaxation and contraction of the muscles, a balance of Yin and Yang.

 

If you took it literally like that, I can't ague about that. I believe I only said relax the muscles but not totally relaxed. Even though I have said totally relaxed, I still wouldn't be collapsed if I wasn't unconscious.

Edited September 22, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[ChiDragon]

"Bagua is the yang side of the coin, Tai Chi being the yin."

I don't know where this notion was coming from. I wouldn't take that for granted.

 

 

"Hence careful with Bagua, don't train this art or you will overtrain and hurt your body."

Any martial arts can hurt your body if over trained. Just use a little common sense can go a long way.

 

PS....

I would be under my own discretion to listen to any generalization which can be a fallacy made by anybody.

[zerostao]

ah here in the woods we dont care. come join us, teach us, whatever. chidragon and steve i will pay your entry fee if you come join up with our kentucky gathering the weekend after the election. stigweard, gerard i will cover you too. any painter guys, johnson guys, frantzis guys , if you got game come show it,. join us.

i will also be honored to cover chris matsuo if he is in our neck of the woods early november. baguazhang gathering, yin fu guys in knoxville say they are already booked up?

baguazhang and any IMA are cordially invited. come bring your game and fa jins. dont worry about your uniforms or robes cos your aura is your robe, right? we do have 4 different baguazhang schools of thought say they will show up. more is better?

me and my friend scott who are organizing this will also pay our entry fee regardless. i will gladly pay for baguazhang, will you?

Edited September 23, 2012 by zerostao

[Gerard]

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Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard