SONG as it relates to baguazhang

[zerostao]

You are very kind, my friend. Unfortunately I am too poor to travel to the US right now. Still I will be sending you good qi in my upcoming climb to sacred Wollumbin.

i feel our connection brother. we are poor bagua players but we aint complaining , i dont reckon.

paths will cross when they are meant to

edit> i look forward to climbing a sacred mountain with you in my company, what continent it doesnt matter.

Edited September 23, 2012 by zerostao

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 13, 2013 by Gerard

[ChiDragon]

ah here in the woods we dont care. come join us, teach us, whatever. chidragon and steve i will pay your entry fee if you come join up with our kentucky gathering the weekend after the election.

 

Zerostao...

I'm flattered. Thank you for your generosity and respect. Let's wait and see how it is going to be worked out. Thanks again

[spiraltao]

Thanks for all of the useful information.

 

I can see why song is mainly in the shoulders and hips. While playing with my partner Nick (fellow bagua player, Ng family dude) i wanted to try and use a whipping palm to break his super strong grip. He is short but very strong and his grip is really something, at any rate, I kept this in mind as he was playing vice on my wrist, then I let the whip out and he said "OW!" and let go. Hurt his back, cuz he was too tense, I suppose.

 

I thought that was slightly relevant.

[doc benway]

 

Does the mud stepping produce a state of song or is it like the so many of the songs say, the hard and soft mutually correspond to create a different kind of enenergy unique to baguazhang.

 

I meant to reply to this also - IME, mud stepping really doesn't do much to develop Song per se. Mud stepping is great for strengthening the legs and improving the balance. It also helps with rooting you on the support leg to allow the upper body rotation and twisting Jin that is so central to the system. I think Baguazhang Zhan Zhuang postures do more to develop Song than anything else, along with hours of circle walking (with or without mud step) and endless practice of the basic palm changes (especially the most basic which in my style is called Lone Phoenix at Dawn). Bagu definitely develops a unique set of energetic skills related to all of the circular stepping and body movement.

[baiqi]

Bagua is the yang side of the coin, Tai Chi being the yin

 

 

I think theses refer to the martial arts of taiji quan and bagua zhang, not the cosmological notion.

 

Generally speaking, baguazhang is more yang (fast, explosive, moving), while taiji quan is more yin (slow, more stable position, etc)

However this is not always the case, some taiji styles (Chen for example) can have more yang.

[doc benway]

Bagua is the yang side of the coin, Tai Chi being the yin

 

 

This is a bit misleading, IMO, even when looking at the martial arts.

 

Taijiquan is all about balance. By it's very name, it promises to apply the balancing of Yin and Yang to martial application. People mistake Taiji as being a "yin" art simply because the form is usually practiced slowly and that's the only part of the method most are exposed to. The form is a very small part of the martial training method regardless of family name.

 

Many Bagua folks also practice walking and palm changes using the principles of Song, Jin, and Zi Ran.

It's a great training tool. If the statement refers to the fact that Taiji is more focused on internal methods (ie developing the Yi and using it to guide the Qi, and so forth) then perhaps it could be considered more Yin. But even Xingyi practitioners, despite the inherently "Yang" nature of the art, spend an enormous amount of time standing quietly in Santishi.

 

Nothing about Taiji martial applications is slow or gentle. It matches and merges with the opponent until the opportunity arises then it is explosive!

[ChiDragon]

steve....

 

"To achieve this requires a high degree of skill in Song and Ting Jin (sensitivity) among other things."

 

Okay, I have been thinking that we should understand each other if we are talking about the same thing. If we want to communicate in the same field, then we should speak the same language by not assuming that the other doesn't know what one was talking about.

 

For a skillful practitioner, by the choice of words such as "Song and Ting Jin" was applied to the defender; and Fa Jin is for the offender. During Fa Jin, at that moment, it was no longer Song and Ting Jin because one of the practitioners become the offender. Did I make any sense....???

[doc benway]

I made no assumptions but I did reach some conclusions based on your earlier comments.

 

Song, Ting Jin, and Fa Jin are names of three important skills used by Taiji players.

All three are used offensively and defensively.

I still listen when I issue. I am Song at all times.

All three require intensive practice and expert instruction to develop.

 

There is no Fa Jin without Ting Jin.

There is no Ting Jin without Song Jin.

And so on...

You can artificially try to dissect out specific concepts in your head but that's not where Taijiquan is practiced.

You are too wrapped up in words - to understand requires practice and expert guidance, especially with respect to subtle and complex skills like Ting, Song, and Fa Jin.

[zerostao]

All three are used offensively and defensively.

I still listen when I issue. I am Song at all times.

[ChiDragon]

I still listen when I issue. I am Song at all times.

 

I can understand the "I still listen when I issue"; but "I am Song at all times."

 

It seems to me that Song is at the Yin state and Fa Jin is at the Yang state. Generally speaking, is it possible to be at a full state of Song while Fa Jin at the same time.....??? It seems contradicting....!!!

[doc benway]

It seems to me that Song is at the Yin state and Fa Jin is at the Yang state.

In that case, you must not have read my earlier post on Song in this thread or perhaps you disagree with it.

Do you think that Yin must exist without Yang and Yang without Yin?

 

 

Generally speaking, is it possible to be at a full state of Song while Fa Jin at the same time.....??? It seems contradicting....!!!

Only one way to find out the answer - practice, practice, and more practice!

Contradiction is healthy, it invites you to investigate further.

[ChiDragon]

In that case, you must not have read my earlier post on Song in this thread or perhaps you disagree with it.

Do you think that Yin must exist without Yang and Yang without Yin?

Yin within Yang and Yang within Yin.

 

Perhaps during combat, 10% Yin within 90% Yang and

10% Yang within 90% Yin.

 

Rather than 50/50 during combat.

[ChiDragon]

Yin within Yang and Yang within Yin.

 

Perhaps.....

During combat, 10% Yin and 90% Yang and

During Ting Jin, 10% Yang and 90% Yin.

 

Rather than 50/50 during combat.

[zerostao]

I can understand the "I still listen when I issue"; but "I am Song at all times."

 

It seems to me that Song is at the Yin state and Fa Jin is at the Yang state. Generally speaking, is it possible to be at a full state of Song while Fa Jin at the same time.....??? It seems contradicting....!!!

yes chidragon, for me to think of anyone "i am song at all times" is thinking someone is marvelous and remarkable.

i certainly am not song at all times. i did like that statement or notion , just the same, and think it is the right idea.

[ChiDragon]

zerostao....

 

That's cool.

Sorry for picking on your brain......!!!

I just like to be consistent as long as we know what's in our minds.

[spiraltao]

I have been applying what I learned in this thread to my baguazhang play. Without the song in the hips and shoulders our movements would be very mechanical looking and possibly cause injury?

 

 

[ChiDragon]

I have been applying what I learned in this thread to my baguazhang play. Without the song in the hips and shoulders our movements would be very mechanical looking and possibly cause injury?

 

The last statement has a "?". Is that a question....???

Edited October 8, 2012 by ChiDragon

[spiraltao]

I meant to say, I think it would be easy to cause injury with tense hip and shoulders.

 

[mYTHmAKER]

My guess would be that song would be the same for all of the internal styles and would include the hard styles at higher levels

One style wouldn't have relaxed shoulders and another style relaxed arms.

Look for holding and let it go. Song equals power and speed

[spiraltao]

This thread has been a real eye opener. Throughout the last week of training I find I am holding a LOT of tension in kua area,. I know in baguazhang we move from the waist, this is why I find it easy to get overly tense in that area, I suppose.

[GreytoWhite]

My guess would be that song would be the same for all of the internal styles and would include the hard styles at higher levels

One style wouldn't have relaxed shoulders and another style relaxed arms.

Look for holding and let it go. Song equals power and speed

 

There are varying degrees of song dependent on the art and its focus. Taiji is more relaxed than bagua in practice and that is the easiest comparison. Even within different lineages there are different focus. Xie Peiqi's animal styles for instance have varying degrees of song and that's all within one lineage.

[mYTHmAKER]

There are varying degrees of song dependent on the art and its focus. Taiji is more relaxed than bagua in practice and that is the easiest comparison. Even within different lineages there are different focus. Xie Peiqi's animal styles for instance have varying degrees of song and that's all within one lineage.

 

There are varying degrees of song within Taiji, Bagua - xingi, akido

If one were 100% song they would be limp.

Song allows one to sink and move from intention - not muscle

[GreytoWhite]

Yes, I understand this, what I am trying to communicate is that the varying levels of song produce different body skills.

 

You have to put hard into your body. So by putting hard into your body, it creates pathways to make hard and soft. It becomes sand, gravel and water mixed together in you. What the Chen style guys do, against what I do, it doesn’t work. Not against someone with a weird body like mine, not against seasoned fighters. It’s not about who’s stronger, but how you learn to use your body. Bruce Lee died at 33 but if he were alive, he wouldn’t be thinking about who is stronger.

Edited November 6, 2012 by MithShrike

[spiraltao]

I understand what you are saying in the quote. An equilibrium must be maintained, correct? This is universal, no? This brings me to a quote that I heard about baguazhang, "the internal and external combine to create a unique energy" is a rough paraphrase. Their is yin sickness, but we are warned more about the yang fire, or at least I have. I feel this is because the yin state is harder to reach for most.

 

 

I had only thought of song as song. not with different levels. i like this concept, i had the same eye opener with fa jin after my teacher told me their were different levels of fa jin...

 

 

SHOULDER ELBOW WRIST=WHIPPING POWER The hands are the tip of the whip... We can't accomplish this without a degree of song.