SONG as it relates to baguazhang

[doc benway]

There are varying degrees of song dependent on the art and its focus. Taiji is more relaxed than bagua in practice and that is the easiest comparison. Even within different lineages there are different focus. Xie Peiqi's animal styles for instance have varying degrees of song and that's all within one lineage.

Not sure I agree with this. I bring the same quality of song to my Taiji, Bagua, and XIngyi practice. Certainly Taiji forms are mostly practiced more slowly (perhaps that is what you're referring to when you mention the word "practice") but, for me, the same basic quality of song is important in all of these internal arts when it comes to martial application and training. Over time, the internal arts converge and are just different emphasis on the same basic theme. I think there is more variability in the individual than in the style or system. Just my opinion, of course.

 

There are varying degrees of song within Taiji, Bagua - xingi, akido

If one were 100% song they would be limp.

Song allows one to sink and move from intention - not muscle

Be careful with how you use the word "song."

If I am 100% song, I am NOT limp.

Song does not mean flaccid.

More song does not mean softer.

Song is much more complex than that.

It is flexible and relaxed without losing the basic structure and posture.

It is responsive and supple but able to continuously adjust and react.

Think zhan, nian, lian, sui, bu diu, bu ding.

Edited November 13, 2012 by steve

[Harmonious Emptiness]

So, to hold a good posture which enables Song, what would you all suggest? I know that a teacher is planets away from doing this on my own, but I don't have the resources needed for that. I am trying to work on some foundations to prepare for when I do meet with a teacher who can correct me. I currently do a few Chen tai chi foundation exercises, as well as some Bagua foundation exercises, and also Michael Lomax's Gift of Tao which I find has some similarities to these movements.

 

What would the main points of posture be for Chen Tai Chi and/or Bagua? any videos or links also much appreciated

 

Presently, I measure song somewhat like a white-pine needle.. loose but mildly resistant.

[doc benway]

Two good exercises for developing song -

1. standing meditation

2. pushing hands

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Would you say that all the same posture points of standing meditation should be maintained during tai chi and baguazhang?

[doc benway]

Would you say that all the same posture points of standing meditation should be maintained during tai chi and baguazhang?

No, I can think of some differences.

Disclaimer - I can only speak about my own styles, experience, and opinions. While I think my response is fairly generalizable, I'm sure there are legitimate differences of opinion.

 

Most of the basic principles are shared - things like suspending the crown point, sinking the shoulders, loosening the kua, tucking the pelvis and chin - most of the time.

 

One of the differences has to do with the alignment of the upper and lower (shoulders/hips, knees/elbows, hands/feet).

In taiji postures during the form and standing meditation practice, there is generally vertical alignment of the upper and lower. In bagua training there is more extreme turning of the waist and trunk so this alignment cannot be maintained. Although the relative alignment will still be there when the waist turn relaxes back to neutral.

 

Hand and wrist posture tends to be a bit more extreme in bagua styles as well - more elbow and wrist extension, more vertical position of the palm. The waist turning during standing and circle walking in bagua also tends to close or narrow the kua as compared to the roundness and openness in taiji forms.

I think there are some differences in how the kua is used for offensive and defensive techniques in the two styles and attention to the kua when practicing each can teach us these differences, although eventually they sort of all contain each other once the practice becomes more martial and application oriented.

 

I think that postural principles are very important in the beginning and eventually become a more flexible guideline that needs to adjust and adapt as the training becomes more free form and more martial. Good posture is always a valuable ingredient in generating power, maintaining flexibility, and moving with agility but sometimes posture needs to be sacrificed to respond to a threat or take advantage of an opportunity. Whenever sacrificed, however, there is increased vulnerability.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks Steve

 

there are some postural things that seem more natural than others to me. For example, sinking the shoulders and hollow the chest makes a lot of sense for defensive purposes. You can see when someone gets tense they instinctively do the opposite of this, often puffing the chest out and raising chin to appear intimidating, while exposing their entire upper body, chin, center..

I think my issue is mostly with the tucking of the tailbone. It seems to keep the posture more erect but less flexible to movement/adaptive response in directions etc. Perhaps it's just something to get used to, but at first it seems to limit movement.

 

Also, isn't there some fairly extreme turning in Tai Chi as well? For example, silk reeling basically turns the hips/torso from one direction to other.

[doc benway]

Thanks Steve

 

there are some postural things that seem more natural than others to me. For example, sinking the shoulders and hollow the chest makes a lot of sense for defensive purposes. You can see when someone gets tense they instinctively do the opposite of this, often puffing the chest out and raising chin to appear intimidating, while exposing their entire upper body, chin, center..

I think my issue is mostly with the tucking of the tailbone. It seems to keep the posture more erect but less flexible to movement/adaptive response in directions etc. Perhaps it's just something to get used to, but at first it seems to limit movement.

 

Also, isn't there some fairly extreme turning in Tai Chi as well? For example, silk reeling basically turns the hips/torso from one direction to other.

Tucking the tail under is really subtle, nothing much more than gently relaxing and elongating the lumbosacral region.

If the low back is in too much of a lordotic alignment, the pelvis is tilted forward and the axis of the lumbosacral junction is more oblique, tucking simply brings the lumbosacral junction to a bit more horizontal axis.

Agreed that it can feel restrictive, even to the breath, if done with too much abdominal or pelvic tension.

Really helps loosen the kua, especially for pivoting, when it feels song. It helps with the step/pivot type footwork whether bagua or taiji.

 

I think the waist turning in taiji and bagua has a different emphasis, particularly at the forms and beginning level.

Once you get to application, they certainly converge but even there, taiji seems to have a bit more yield, neutralize, destroy while bagua works to create powerful vortices that deflect, redirect, and attack. Definitely feels different to me but, again, it all converges with application.

[Gerard]

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Edited September 16, 2013 by Gerard

[doc benway]

Also, isn't there some fairly extreme turning in Tai Chi as well? For example, silk reeling basically turns the hips/torso from one direction to other.

As far as turning in taiji - absolutely.

I was mainly referring to posture in terms of "extreme".

The turning stars larger and physical in silk reeling and other taiji and bagua drills, but ultimately, it's the internal/intentional component we're after in that exercise - the pervasive intent, and that's the song we're talking about (in both arts).

 

As for images -

Here's the postural element I"m mostly referring to in bagua:

 

 

 

The upper kua is emphasized and there's enormous work on core isometrics with a stable base. This narrows the lower kua and restricts it a bit

On the other hand, taiji goes for song, jing, and zi ran and so the upper and lower are aligned, the kua is open and free, and so on:

 

chenxiaowang.jpg

Edited November 18, 2012 by steve

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for that Steve. Took a bit of time to process, but I can see how those back turns in 8 Section Brocade would be really helpful for some of those postures.

 

I posted a thread in my Personal Practice discussion, btw, which I think relates well to this thread. I didn't want to post it twice, nor derail this thread to my own practices, so here's a link to it:

 

Song-Teacups

 

edit: one thing there, btw, which I could add here, is that it might be better to describe "song" as "un-tensed" sinced it's not really "loose," but rather just "un-tensed" yeah? Always ready and conscious, but just not "tensed."

Edited November 29, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[joeblast]

Watching your wandering mind is the most important point, this can be achieved by perfect form during practice. As true BGZ has got so many postural details, your mind stops wandering naturally, hence you become more relaxed.

 

For example:

 

http://tinyurl.com/byxc55b

This is an awesome point that made me some excellent gains in meditation. Bring the force of awareness to bear and set it upon your practice, shine it everywhere as if you have a flood light aimed at you, make the corrections continuously in an unperturbed fashion.

[spiraltao]

While this is a bit unrelated, after achieving song in the shoulders my next biggest challenge was the kua. I am still working on keeping it relaxed, seems I hold a lot of tension there.

[spiraltao]

A good tip on how to see where your shoulders should be is: raise the arms vertically as far as you can with nearly no strain, just a slight stretch, then LET THE ARMS FALL. Do this in front of a mirror and where your shoulders end up after the drop is where they should hang.

 

 

I have seen various highly skilled bagua practictioners both leave space and not leave space under the armpit in the dragon posture. I thought one always left a space in the armpit, this does hold true for baguazhang too?

[zerostao]

[zerostao]

i found a song that relates to baguazhang. to be the artist one needs to be completely immersed and absorbed in their art.

half measures are most likely in vain. palm reading in 8 ez steps

[zerostao]

fro

Edited February 17, 2016 by zerostao

[spiraltao]

WONDERFULZERO!   The green bamboo viper...   Woven throughout the Ng family baguazhang, all baguazhang I suppose.  Coil like a snake! 

To quote Lao Xie  "The uncoiling is the coiling and the coiling is the uncoiling!"   This viper likes to hang coiled and strike the enemy's side.    

Special thanks to the artist!

[zerostao]

yes, special thanks to the artist, the bum known as enelia.