Body of U.S. teen found at Peru ayahuasca retreat

[Aaron]

if you need to take a drug to experience reality, then you are missing the point of living. this poor child was the victim of people who convinced him that living alone was not worth experiencing. he thought he needed something more and as a result died for it. the true criminals, aside from the shaman, are those people who convinced this child that he was lacking and flawed, that he needed something more to be complete. religion and spirituality kill more people than they need to.

 

Aaron

Edited September 15, 2012 by Aaron

[mrtiger]

 

There you have it. I am. You are not against drugs, I am against drugs. You call a not-a-drug a drug, I don't. Indeed, nothing to talk about, because we don't have our terms straight, let alone our values.

 

Oh, and the word "alien" quoted out of context is supposed to make someone who used it look lacking in "sensible and balanced" conversation abilities?.. I can assure you I used it metaphorically. (I wouldn't use it any other way unless I know who I'm talking to. And especially if I do. )

 

Let me ask you a simple question.

 

Do you think it's at all possible that Ayahuasca could ever cause death.

[skydog]

lets look at things logically

 

how many people does alchohol, tobacco, unneccessary wars, pharmaceutical pills kill?

 

how many people die from taking a psychadelic

[mrtiger]

lets look at things logically

 

how many people does alchohol, tobacco, unneccessary wars, pharmaceutical pills kill?

 

how many people die from taking a psychadelic

 

Right so alcohol etc kills lots of people. Lots more that psychedelics.

 

(Alcohol use is far more prevalent so it would only be comparable if the same amount of people who drank, took psychedelics. Maybe one is worse than the other. In any case I don't really think it's important.)

 

What concerns me is something different.

 

Namely - the the closed mindset of many of the people who have commented on this post.

 

They instantly point to conspiracy because they don't like the idea that psychedelic drugs could kill. It doesn't fit with their outlook.

 

I ask people to look at the facts and consider this news story with a genuinely open mind, not a pre-determined dogmatic outlook. Can you do that people?

[skydog]

.

Edited September 15, 2012 by sinansencer

[Aetherous]

I ask people to look at the facts and consider this news story with a genuinely open mind, not a pre-determined dogmatic outlook. Can you do that people?

 

No, that's too challenging for us tao bums.

[mrtiger]

No, that's too challenging for us tao bums.

 

I think you're right.

[mrtiger]

if you walk outside your house theres a chance a gang may come and murder you..i think theres more of a chance of that than people dying from psychadelic use

 

Sure. People also die from eating nuts (allergies).

 

It's sensible to consider the possibility that Ayahuasca might harm you or kill you.

 

Now if that's the case. We might also assume that every now and again someone will die.

 

And that might also get reported in the press.

 

That's what this likely boils down to.

 

Someone took Ayahuasca. He died.

 

But that's not enough for some.

 

Phrases like "disinformation" "alien agenda" and "media conspiracy" appear.

 

The wholesale belief in conspiracy theories is surely one of the biggest reality filters out there.

[Aetherous]

I think you're right.

 

We'll leave that job to you, mrtiger.

[Taomeow]

Let me ask you a simple question.

 

Do you think it's at all possible that Ayahuasca could ever cause death.

 

I think it's possible that anything can cause death. Ayahuasca is far below water (many thousands of drowning deaths every year) or peanuts (1,3% of the population have peanut allergy, the leading cause of death of all food allergies) or peanut butter (the leading cause of choking death in nursing homes and hospitals) and infinitely less dangerous than any prescription or OTC drug you might take (the leading cause of death in the US), which would absolutely make any case of it actually striking someone down (which still remains to be proved) at the rate of a millionth of a percent of other dangerous stuff out there not newsworthy if the news we're fed weren't skewed.

 

You are not a conspiracy theorist, that's laudable. You are a coincidence theorist. You believe that there's no connection between the lowest-danger substance being reported when there's a slight unproved chance that it may be implicated in a death, while top-danger substances causing thousands of deaths daily are not being reported, between this choice of what to report and how, and any ulterior motives at all. Fine. Coincidence theorists rule the world... for now. This world, which of course they have made perfect for everyone except a few misguided conspiracy theorists who see the connections where there ain't any. Kudos.

[mrtiger]

I think it's possible that anything can cause death. Ayahuasca is far below water (many thousands of drowning deaths every year) or peanuts (1,3% of the population have peanut allergy, the leading cause of death of all food allergies) or peanut butter (the leading cause of choking death in nursing homes and hospitals) and infinitely less dangerous than any prescription or OTC drug you might take (the leading cause of death in the US), which would absolutely make any case of it actually striking someone down (which still remains to be proved) at the rate of a millionth of a percent of other dangerous stuff out there not newsworthy if the news we're fed weren't skewed.

 

You are not a conspiracy theorist, that's laudable. You are a coincidence theorist. You believe that there's no connection between the lowest-danger substance being reported when there's a slight unproved chance that it may be implicated in a death while top-danger substances causing thousands of deaths daily are not being reported. Fine. Coincidence theorists rule the world... for now. This world, which of course they have made perfect for everyone except a few misguided conspiracy theorists who see the connections where there ain't any. Kudos.

 

Ok so to recap my question was - Do you think it's at all possible that Ayahuasca could ever cause death? Your answer was in short - yes it's possible, even if the odds are slim.

 

So my next question to you is this: If someone did die from Ayahuasca ingestion, what would it take for you to believe it? How are you ever able to separate the conspiracy from reality?

[Taomeow]

Ok so to recap my question was - Do you think it's at all possible that Ayahuasca could ever cause death? Your answer was in short - yes it's possible, even if the odds are slim.

 

So my next question to you is this: If someone did die from Ayahuasca ingestion, what would it take for you to believe it? How are you ever able to separate the conspiracy from reality?

 

A medical history and an autopsy that rule out other causes would do. Like I said, I haven't seen a single case where it was proved with ayahuasca the way it can be proved with a gunshot wound, a cyanide pill, or a peanut contamination in a pecan cookie ingested by someone with a history of severe peanut allergy that a particular agent or substance entering the body did indeed cause death. And believe me, I looked for such proof before traveling to Peru. Better safe than sorry.

[mrtiger]

A medical history and an autopsy that rule out other causes would do. Like I said, I haven't seen a single case where it was proved with ayahuasca the way it can be proved with a gunshot wound, a cyanide pill, or a peanut contamination in a pecan cookie ingested by someone with a history of severe peanut allergy that a particular agent or substance entering the body did indeed cause death. And believe me, I looked for such proof before traveling to Peru. Better safe than sorry.

 

Ok fair enough. Let's agree to disagree.

 

I believe this story. It seems straightforward. A teen died in Peru and it's likely Ayahuasca was used.

 

What's your version? It was a conspiracy to discredit Ayahuasca which in turn is part of a wider agenda for control of peoples minds or something?

[mrtiger]

.

Edited September 15, 2012 by mrtiger

[skydog]

lets bare in mind...seeming as your being fairly balanced and undogmatic about it mrtiger...we dont actually know the real cause of the death of the death of the guy who died in peru.

 

Also it is a sensitive issue, something like ayuashca can bring so much healing and when people even mention it can randomly kill one person..its quite a claim.

[mrtiger]

lets bare in mind...seeming as your being fairly balanced and undogmatic about it mrtiger...we dont actually know the real cause of the death of the death of the guy who died in peru.

 

Also it is a sensitive issue, something like ayuashca can bring so much healing and when people even mention it can randomly kill one person..its quite a claim.

 

Well who knows?

 

On the one hand he may have died from Ayahuasca use. On the other it may be a government / new world order plot. I'm going with the first. It seems more plausible.

[Aetherous]

Eh, some people have this conspiracy theory that government and business interests do only good things in the world, and that the general public is much more informed than to allow news articles to provide them their beliefs about the safety of various substances. And that when you use the word 'alien' even in a context that means "belonging to a foreign country or nation" it implies something otherworldly.

Edited September 15, 2012 by turtle shell

[mrtiger]

Eh, some people have this conspiracy theory that government and business interests do only good things in the world, and that the general public is much more informed than to allow news articles to provide them their beliefs about the safety of various substances.

 

Do you think there is a middle position?

 

I.e. Sometimes people conspire other times things just happen on their own accord.

 

That's the view I take.

 

I used to work in the media. It's why I take an issue with the people who claim the reporting of this story is a government coverup.

 

The media doesn't work like that. Sure their are vested interests in some camps but they tend to be along parochial, political lines e.g. Fox News vs New York Times. Unified they are not. They is no overriding agenda there.

 

I question some big world events. I believe governments have conspired against us in a big way at certain time in history. What I don't believe is that they would have planted a story about a drug noone in the wider world knows or cares about.

 

I call it a balanced perspective. I encourage you all to let go of your delusions and come to the middle ground.

[Aetherous]

I don't think anyone is planning to use the news article as a means of spreading ayahuasca hatred, necessarily. But that is what has inevitably happened, for the uninformed reader. If my parents were to read the article, for instance, they would tell me to never use ayahuasca. That it's dangerous and kills people. When actually, as Taomeow pointed out, it's more dangerous to swim (or even to drink water...there are more known cases of hyponatremia deaths than aya deaths, lol).

 

Agenda most of the time isn't a conscious thing. The article didn't make any attempt to touch on what the "shaman" said about how the kid died, about an autopsy, about the number of known deaths due to aya, due to mixing it with MAOIs or datura, etc. It's mostly because it was an article about a kid who died tragically...but it also reveals a widespread unconscious agenda against any mind altering substance. If it's that, it must be bad and it must be the cause...right? No? Oh well, lets just not talk about real statistics. It must have been the "drug". Doesn't matter that we don't actually know.

 

I personally have no agenda...have never done aya, and probably will never. Just sayin'.

[Seth Ananda]

What I don't believe is that they would have planted a story about a drug noone in the wider world knows or cares about.

lol, maybe I missed something. Who said anything about someone planting a story?

Of course a teen died in Peru under a dodgy Aya shaman, with Aya involved. But To me it seems that people jump to blame Aya itself with out ANY evidence it was Aya it self, and not some other Ingredients or complications with their existing medications.

 

Because Aya has such an amazing track record in healing cancers and tumors - I know people who went to Peru or Brazil to heal themselves from these very things {successfully}, and because there are communities there who have never even heard of Aya itself causing a death, and who have been taking it for 1000's of years, Aya has this record of being an Amazing Sacred plant medicine.

The conservative mind is very uncomfortable with this, because of the Psychedelic 'connotations' and will very happily welcome any Information that besmirches this plants record to help set it at ease that 'Drugs are Bad' mkay! And they will happily do this without any close examinations of any deaths that do happen.

 

This has happened in Australia already, with the 7.30 reports Aya episode, which is pretty much a conservative Inspired fear campaign against the plant, and blatantly lies all through the show...

 

That is the conspiracy I believe in.

[eye_of_the_storm]

Beautiful Taomeow! that story was truly wonderful, about the tribe and soul songs / welcoming

 

[mrtiger]

You guys all clearly love this drug.

 

And you don't want to hear anything negative said about it, even if it's true.

 

Your emotions have clouded your reasoning.

[Jetsun]

Unlike many other drugs Ayahuasca isnt taken alone it is always mixed with other compounds so humans can access it, often other more toxic plants are added to the mix to add different effects. Simply looking at the history and what we know of the pharmacology of these substances it is more likely that one of these other plants was added at a toxic dose, this is using reason not emotion because many of the other substances are known to be more toxic.

 

But this was bound to happen at some point as it is big business in Peru so many people are running centres just for the money,.I spoke to a taxi driver when I was in Iquitos and he said that there are very few genuine Shamen operating in these centres they are just people bluffing along for the easy money. The Shaman involved in this case would buy his brew from outside and not supervise his drinkers, which is a recipe for disaster.

[eye_of_the_storm]

MrTiger you are a funny one

 

I think you may be either an alien or government disinformation agent ... maybe both // I havnt decided yet... though I am leaning toward both.

 

Edited September 16, 2012 by White Wolf Running On Air

[eye_of_the_storm]