Stillness-movement and trauma therapy

[raimonio]

Hi!

 

I talked with a psychology major about Stillness-movement. I was surprised when he said that the western psychotherapeutic community has exercises that seem similar. He said that it is used for treating patients with different kind of psychological traumas. He said that animals in nature do some kind of S-M everytime after a traumatic experience.

 

Its funny that the western psychologists have stumbled across a phenomena that seems very similar to S-M. Ofcourse it is different, in S-M the energies make the movements and theres alot more to it. Like sometimes I end up doing Qi Gong like movements or massaging a chakra, also its hard to imagine anyone in therapy getting their microcosmic orbit going, but I bet these two techniques share some similarities still.

 

Or maybe this is just too much linear thinking! I just wanted to share this info with everyone, because I found it intriguing

Edited September 16, 2012 by raimonio

[寒月 Hanyue]

Mmm..

 

I've stopped talking about Stillness-Movement neigong, mainly because I know that I don't know, which is fine and actually preferable in many ways.

 

When I was first introduced to the system, via a friend and Ya Mu's book, I 'saw' parallels with other practices I knew (Japanese, Chinese and Western). Bercelli's work was one of them. Then I met Ya Mu and experienced S-M neigong and realised my presumptions about those similarities were not quite what I had thought they were.

 

As I continued to practice, and to listen to others experiences, I started again to 'see' parallels of S-M neigong elsewhere, based upon my newer and unfolding perspective. The more time I've spent with Ya Mu the more I've realised that actually, these parallels are also not quite what I thought they once were.

 

I am NOT posting this to say you are wrong, or wrong to see these parallels. Far from it. However I urge you to remain open to changes and shifts in perspective. I am also going to share something that I beleive has already been posted on this forum elsewhere, and I think is important to bear in mind.

 

S-M neigong is NOT a qigong method. It IS a Lineage.

 

There is a big difference, but you have to read between the lines of that statement. This is why if you look at another qigong is it S-M neigong?

 

"the Teacher projects certain vibrational energy to the student which initiates movement....It would take much longer if a person just started practicing.... Initially, the student would only be doing stillness and not have the higher vibrational movement...The Higher Level Stillness-Movement uses higher-level vibrational patterns and looks nothing like what I see some of you folks describing as spontaneous qigong. Sometimes, initially, when a student thinks they are supposed to be doing something we see that sort of jerking around movement and indeed there can be some release. But the true energy of the Stillness-Movement is usually much deeper spirals with vibrational shifts. The method I teach strictly depends on energy body vibrational changes made by the Teacher's energy projection.." [bold and underlining for emphasis is mine and NOT Ya Mu's]

 

I quote Ya Mu simply because he is the best person to describe his system and the how or why of it [all of the above is freely available on TTB's].

 

It is not that muscles don't fire or twitch and jump during S-M neigong, but S-M neigong is NOT about that, as in that is not its aim or goal. It can simply be ONE of the things that may happen for SOME people. There is also a difference in trigger mechanism. The Trauma release work uses stress positions to trigger a neurological response. S-M neigong is a build up of a the Qi in the dantian as per Ya Mu's description above.

 

"I have said before that after prolonged practice...there will be vibrations in the body, but whether this happens or not or how frequently depends on the ...person involved. Some think [the practice] does not work because they experience no vibrations....Some experience vibrations...Some have no vibrations at all, even though they have already experienced changes...Thus it appears that there is no [direct] co-relationship between vibrations and effect." One of Master Wang's teachers on the practice of jinggong (stillness).

 

Raimonio, please know that this post is not simply a response to your thread. I am only bothering to post my thoughts at all, because of the sheer number of pm's, e-mails and in person conversations I have had with Bum's about all varieties of shaking practices and spontaneous qigongs they see as being the same as S-M neigong (Which is why I mention the lineage above, which is what makes S-M neigong S-M neigong).

 

Yet when I spoke with three of Ya Mu's senior students the descriptions of their practice I got bears a striking and marked contrast from that of many of the Bum's I've met who have gone to a workshop. I am still puzzled by this, but given the number of times a parallel has been made between shaking practices and spontaneous qigong's that involve or display large shaking movements I wonder about the power of suggestion?

 

"Sometimes, initially, when a student thinks they are supposed to be doing something we see that sort of jerking around movement and indeed there can be some release."

 

It doesn't mean such things are not part of what CAN happen in S-M neigong, it is just putting the reactions in perspective. And even if such things do happen in practice is doesn't mean they are always meant to or they are an inherent part of it.

 

So my question [asked rhetorically and aimed at no one particular person] is this, are you genuinely sitting and allowing yourself to simply 'Be'? or are you indulging in what you think/feel should/could be happening?

 

Tough one to answer!

 

Best,

Edited September 16, 2012 by snowmonki

[GrandmasterP]

QiGong is an excellent practice recommended for PTSD sufferers.

The set is irrelevant, it's the imparted sense of self-control and cultivation of regulated breathing that facilitates speedier return to equilibrium and beyond that, healing of memories. It's also very economical compared to some allopathic regimes.

[skydog]

I love stillness movement I am doing it right now lol but not 100% sure on whether it deals specifically with one personal trauma though. For example meditation often doesnt clear specific past traumas whilst being helpful in other ways.

 

Yamu said it helps everything however he also mentioned that you can have other tools in your toolbox and he also does.

 

Also TRE I think it also involves focusing on an issue beforehand, and when I did it (incidentally starting in brought about the shaking) didnt really remove the particular pain just made me feel better in general. Although I never bought the actual version just read it off the internet, so it may have been different.

 

However these days I never really think about releasing personal traumas, done a fair bit of that, slightly difficult work, but also enhances self identity and crazy egoicness, although you never know if there may come a time or if it will be helpful for others.

Edited September 16, 2012 by sinansencer

[GrandmasterP]

Reflecting on Snowmonki's excellent post this qualifier. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is exogenous and relates to an actual causal factor. Stillness Movement and lineage discourse engages via endogenous neuroses factors. The efficacy lies in the neurotic attachment which remains beyond the 'treatment'. It works if you believe it works but the original neurosis is not addressed.

[GrandmasterP]

Reflecting on Snowmonki's excellent post this qualifier. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is exogenous and relates to an actual causal factor. Stillness Movement and lineage discourse engages via endogenous neuroses factors. The efficacy lies in the neurotic attachment which remains beyond the 'treatment'. It works if you believe it works but the original neurosis is not addressed.

[RiverSnake]

In the past i toyed around with TRE for a bit. I also practice a bit of spontaneous shaking now and then when i feel a bit rusty....and ofcourse i also practice S-M.

 

IME all three seem to me quite different practices.

 

-My 2 cents, Peace

[寒月 Hanyue]

TRE does not require you to focus on anything beforehand.

 

It is based out of an understanding of the trapped storage of nervous system energy (the firing of the flight/fight/freeze response [and others]) throughout the organism, which happens through repression of those responses. and how triggering neurogenic tremors helps the body to release this storage of nervous energy. As the sensory-motor system is engaged the habitual firing of these and other reflexes/responses in the body are reset. The actual rhythmical and consistent firing of the muscles during the tremors also resets the habitual lengths and muscle tone, and can unwind distorted fascia (connective tissue).

 

It focus upon the poas and the pelvic/lower abdominal area simply because this allows the tremors to resonate out to the whole body the easiest. Triggering the neurogenic tremors in the hand or arm for example is just as easy, but much harder to then allow that to spread through out the body.

 

It is based out of somatic trauma theory. And is a body-mind medicine, in that it heals and release mental emotional issues by addressing the body.

 

PTSD is a tricky subject and is still not fully understood or addressed by any discipline. Stress inoculation is also not an indicator for whether an individual will experience PTSD.

 

One of the worst aspects of PTSD is the separation and loss of an underlying belief system that makes sense of the world. When this belief system is shattered or forcibly removed it has a very harsh impact upon a person. It can take a VERY long time for a new belief system to develop, and some never fully recover. This is one of the aspects that spontaneous or a very violent Kundalini awakening can trigger in people leading to real kundalini syndrome or qigong psychosis.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Reflecting on Snowmonki's excellent post this qualifier. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is exogenous and relates to an actual causal factor. Stillness Movement and lineage discourse engages via endogenous neuroses factors. The efficacy lies in the neurotic attachment which remains beyond the 'treatment'. It works if you believe it works but the original neurosis is not addressed.

 

I prefer somatic theories rather than straight out psychology ones. I also do not feel the original neurosis needs to be addressed. What does need to be addressed is the attachment and the embedded patterns associated with the neurosis. You can spend years going round and round trying to re-integrate perceived neurotic issues and still not get anywhere, though you'll have learned a lot about yourself most likely.

 

Regarding body-mind medicine, I don't think it has to be one or the other though. I think practically a somatic method is best, but addressing the mental issues that arise is also best done with support and care.

 

Regarding S-M neigong, which is NOT body-mind medicine, I can only paraphrase Ya Mu. You have to go above and beyond the level of the issue to fully address it. The efficacy of S-M in this way would be to not address either the physically stuck energetic patterns nor the mental/emotional ones, but to work above that and allow the effects to ripple downwards. I can only assume the same is considered in both the self and patient healing aspects of the system.

 

It has taken me a LONG time to even begin to fully appreciate what is happening behind the curtain, despite Ya Mu openly pointing this out. It is so much easier to pay attention to the more obvious aspects I've experienced.

 

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thanks for your clear and authentic response, snowmonki.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Sorry, got a nudge so I'm posting again

 

After my first workshop Kempomaster told me he always re-reads Ya Mu's book after a workshop. He nearly always finds something he'd missed previously or something that makes far more sense.

 

Doc Morris wrote Pathnotes to be read this way, mirroring the old scrolls.

 

It is a worthwhile practice.

 

It is a spiral between absorbing what your teacher explains and doing the practice.

 

If we want to follow S-M neigong then I think we should listen and bear in mind what Ya Mu chooses to explain about the practice and lineage. Everyone who's met him knows he expects you not to simply beleive him but to allow yourself to prove what it is or is not through direct experience of it over time.

 

So, when it comes to zifagong (spontaneous qigong) or 'shaking' practices, I feel we should appreciate what Ya Mu has to say about its relationship to Stillness-Movement. And maybe consider that what we 'see' is not what he 'sees', and then ponder on that!

 

Best,

[Ish]

Ive wondered can one "lose" the transmission? Due to not practising or practicising insufficiently?

I recall Michael saying the teacher lights the fire then its up to the student to keep it up.

 

Appreciate the responses

[raimonio]

I read your post snowmonki and was amazed. I mean I knew already that S-M isn't the same as this trauma practice what we see in the video or any freeform qigong for that matter. Also knew that it is actually a neigong practice. The similar looking movements though did strike my eye and made my intellectual mind go crazy with theories. But now I'm glad that I made the post, because your response was definitely worth it

 

It opened my eyes in a new way, I feel like the experience from the workshop was somehow renewed. You know you can only absorb so much during one (my first) workshop. I did hear all of this there and understood it on an intellectual level, but now I feel like I've truly got something. I admit I thought that the movements where a sign of something and was proud of myself to have them, now I feel like a fool. It seems that there are mistakes to be learnt from. The mind gets a head of things. I've only been doing this for a few weeks and while it has already turned my life around I do not think I have grasped the real implications of the matter. Michael said in the workshop that he still gets new information from the practice (the lineage). Now I understand that I wasn't ready to get that information back in the workshop

 

Thnx for the lesson, I better get back to that book and start reading, then sit down and start BEING

[skydog]

good replies snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

I read your post snowmonki and was amazed. I mean I knew already that S-M isn't the same as this trauma practice what we see in the video or any freeform qigong for that matter. Also knew that it is actually a neigong practice. The similar looking movements though did strike my eye and made my intellectual mind go crazy with theories. But now I'm glad that I made the post, because your response was definitely worth it

 

It opened my eyes in a new way, I feel like the experience from the workshop was somehow renewed. You know you can only absorb so much during one (my first) workshop. I did hear all of this there and understood it on an intellectual level, but now I feel like I've truly got something. I admit I thought that the movements where a sign of something and was proud of myself to have them, now I feel like a fool. It seems that there are mistakes to be learnt from. The mind gets a head of things. I've only been doing this for a few weeks and while it has already turned my life around I do not think I have grasped the real implications of the matter. Michael said in the workshop that he still gets new information from the practice (the lineage). Now I understand that I wasn't ready to get that information back in the workshop

 

Thnx for the lesson, I better get back to that book and start reading, then sit down and start BEING

 

You are most certainly NOT a fool!

 

Nor is anyone else that sees such parallels or similarities. They exist. My feeling is that we should always keep BOTH any similarities we find/see AND the differences in mind. While also being OPEN to knowing that our perception of these similarities will continue to evolve and change.

 

This has been my experience, and continues to be so. This is why I generally stopped posting on S-M, I'm too green and have only felt/seen/experienced a small part it. So also take all of my posts on S-M in this thread and elsewhere with that in mind.

 

Your body shaking is releasing something, nothing wrong with being pleased with that But if you indulge in it or focus on it, or expect it, it can prevent you simply Being present to what is happening next practice. I have chronic pain, and dropping expectation is hard for me, so I struggle with this too haha!

 

Yeah, re-read the book. Re-watch the dvd's, and so on.

 

All the best,

[raimonio]

Thank you, I do belive I have alot to release

 

I think that getting over of actual traumas is a long process and can happen "on its own" if you get the love and care that you need, although if your down in the gutter it can be a hard task to get. Psychotherapy is also strong, but it costs. Theres been a few people talking about going above & beyond with S-M, is it comparable (yet again with the similarities!) to Buddhist awareness? Where you sort of take yourself away from the equation, look at it from a distance and realize "hey, this is stupid, I'm just gonna let it go" ? This is something that has actually been happening to me lately in between the practices.

 

Ish asked whether the gift of dan tien will evaporate if you dont practice. This is something that people seem to be wondering. I have a friend who was in the workshop and asked me the same, havent been able to give a clear answer. I think Michael said that it will, but it would be nice to know how much you need to practice to keep it? What if you dont do the 1hour a day regime will you then loose it?

 

I understand that there is the possibility of you saying something that isn't true, but there is still alot we can learn from you and other more experienced practitioners. Beginners can have such big misunderstandings and delusions about the practice.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Great to hear about this unfolding in your practice. Sounds like a bit of resistance just faded away. Best --

 

Partly. I still carry a lot of resistance to who I am. The shells are cracking slowly It has also partly just been having long enough to see beyond the terms and explanations, particulalry the ones that have been close to previous training and experience. For one I will no longer be practicing GoT as qigong.

 

Best,

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thank you, I do belive I have alot to release

 

I think that getting over of actual traumas is a long process and can happen "on its own" if you get the love and care that you need, although if your down in the gutter it can be a hard task to get. Psychotherapy is also strong, but it costs. Theres been a few people talking about going above & beyond with S-M, is it comparable (yet again with the similarities!) to Buddhist awareness? Where you sort of take yourself away from the equation, look at it from a distance and realize "hey, this is stupid, I'm just gonna let it go" ? This is something that has actually been happening to me lately in between the practices.

 

Most people have more trauma than they realise. These practices will bring stuff to the surface as it is processed.

 

I don't think all trauma has to be a long process, think gordian knot. But it depends on the tools used to address it. MUCH trauma can be released without you even being aware of it, and this is what in my opinion the more natural cultivation paths/methods allow once the process is begun.

 

No to Buddhism. I think you're thinking along different lines to my comment. I'm not talking about distancing anything or even realisation of anything.

 

Ish asked whether the gift of dan tien will evaporate if you dont practice. This is something that people seem to be wondering. I have a friend who was in the workshop and asked me the same, havent been able to give a clear answer. I think Michael said that it will, but it would be nice to know how much you need to practice to keep it? What if you dont do the 1hour a day regime will you then loose it?

 

"the Teacher projects certain vibrational energy to the student... After that, the student continues to practice. As long as they go home and practice, this continues to build and can be quite powerful. If they go home and think about it without the practice then they have waisted my time and theirs."

 

You guys need to learn to use the search function, it aint all that hard

 

Ya Mu says an hour a day. There are other posts on this, on the forum.

 

I understand that there is the possibility of you saying something that isn't true, but there is still alot we can learn from you and other more experienced practitioners. Beginners can have such big misunderstandings and delusions about the practice.

 

Source, always go back to source to qualify your understanding. In S-M neigong that is Ya Mu. Anything else always grab the salt shaker

 

Best,

[skydog]

,

Edited September 17, 2012 by sinansencer

[skydog]

Thank you, I do belive I have alot to release

 

I think that getting over of actual traumas is a long process and can happen "on its own" if you get the love and care that you need, although if your down in the gutter it can be a hard task to get. Psychotherapy is also strong, but it costs. Theres been a few people talking about going above & beyond with S-M, is it comparable (yet again with the similarities!) to Buddhist awareness? Where you sort of take yourself away from the equation, look at it from a distance and realize "hey, this is stupid, I'm just gonna let it go" ? This is something that has actually been happening to me lately in between the practices.

 

Ish asked whether the gift of dan tien will evaporate if you dont practice. This is something that people seem to be wondering. I have a friend who was in the workshop and asked me the same, havent been able to give a clear answer. I think Michael said that it will, but it would be nice to know how much you need to practice to keep it? What if you dont do the 1hour a day regime will you then loose it?

 

I understand that there is the possibility of you saying something that isn't true, but there is still alot we can learn from you and other more experienced practitioners. Beginners can have such big misunderstandings and delusions about the practice.

 

As Michael said Its "great I get to do stillness movement" for me anyways.

 

Time you do will increase gradually Im sure...

 

For me I find retaining jing is very important.

 

Good luck.

Edited September 17, 2012 by sinansencer

[raimonio]

Okay, I had to know about the Buddhist awareness thing just to make sure. Now I know: This practice cannot be compared to any practice and the only way to find out what this practice is, is to do the practice. Got it I'm really looking forward to experiencing all of this. I understand how it may be frustrating to try to talk about it when it cannot be talked about and seeing some random guys trying to figure it out trough terms they've learned before

 

I like to do S-M very much and do it 1-2hours daily and like I said it has already turned my life around. I was not able to do any sitting meditation before the workshop so I'm more than all good (especially now that my intellectual mind has been beaten!). I have also read the forum and heard the 1hour regime, which you are adviced to do for 100days before you make your mind. There are however individuals who have problems with 1h S-M sessions. I have talked to one of them and been asked whether it would be okay to do the Gift of the Tao movements instead. Or half hour of S-M half hour of Gift of the Tao etc. I feel that it would be a shame if some people stopped doing the practice because the 1h feels overwhelming, on the other hand I understand if the energy received can only be kept with 1h of S-M daily. I would not be asking this question unless this was a real issue for some. Now ofcourse I could just tell this person what we both have heard about the 1h regime, but as it seems making through the 100 days feels impossible, I feel obligated to bring this up. I think I should advice this person to contact the source if the troubles endure.

 

Thank you for the answers and patience

[寒月 Hanyue]

You are best off asking Ya Mu directly.

 

There is a reason he likes people to practice for an hour. He has mentioned a "saturation"* point which tends to hit between 40-60 minutes. However, any practice is better than no practice. And 'micro' prcatice is a VERY good way of building up towards 24/7.

 

GoT IS S-M neigong, and practicing it will give many benefits. Ya Mu has explained the basic differences between standing and sitting S-M neigong (standing the body can move more - sitting you can go deeper), and I am going to take the liberty and extrapolate that further. GoT is 'moving' S-M neigong, so it is harder to go 'deep' in the S-M, but the patterns are from S-M, so.....

 

Many aspects of struggling with sitting were addressed by Ya Mu in Finland, more than I've heard before, but simply because of the questions that came up. All VERY good advice. And one of the things I was reminded of is that it shouldn't really be an effort or chore! I have chronic pain so trust me I appreciate difficulties with sitting!

 

You can do S-M neigong sitting, standing, moving (ala GoT or walking qigong), even lying down (though the movement restrictions are not ideal) you can do it in nature with trees etc. So you can play with what is most comfortable and easiest and work on the energy body that way. Then simply see how the changes work for you.

 

Hope this helps,

 

* Please note, that as I recall Ya Mu explained that "saturation" point was not a great way to put into words what he was explaining. So bear that in mind

Edited September 18, 2012 by snowmonki

[寒月 Hanyue]

As Michael said Its "great I get to do stillness movement" for me anyways.

 

Good point, I think this is important to remember too why torture yourself when you can have fun

 

Best,

[amoyaan]

Great thread, and very helpful. Thanks especially to Snowmonki; your insights have helped further my understanding of SM neigong. My understanding and experience of it seems to be evolving all the time. Like Raimonio I'm still a novice, but entirely committed to the process...if you can call it a process, that's prob not the best word. In fact I find it very hard to put SM into words...words seem too linear and constricting. I get the feeling it's a kind of multi-dimensional process in some way, but who can say. I'm trying to keep it simple and just let it unfold...

[Cat Pillar]

This has been a fun thread to read, I particularly enjoyed Snowmonki's posts.

 

Can't wait until November! The upcoming workshop is the only thing I have to look forward to these days.